# The New Haven Firefighter Case **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 31, 2009, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-haven-firefighter-case/498268 "2009-05-31T16:52:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Fantome](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Fantome](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fantome)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2009, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-haven-firefighter-case/498268/161 "2009-06-04T17:07:03Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > But you are ignoring the fact that your phrasing accepts many things as predicates that have simply not been proven. You need to demonstrate that those test scores actual translate to competence and ability in the operating room, or in practice. First of all, I’m not ignoring any facts. My response was to show that comparing a first year medical student to a board-certified surgeon when it comes to who you’d want to operate on you is not relevant to the debate as we have a lot more information than their MCAT scores in that equation. Comparing someone who didn’t need as high a score on their MCAT as someone else- with no further information- is, since that’s what we’re talking about. And no, I don’t need to show that MCAT scores are meaningful to competence in the operating room. It’s a hypothetical question. If the reader is rushed to the E.R. and from there rushed to the O.R., who would he rather have as a surgeon when he knows that black people don’t need as high a score as white people on their MCAT scores- a black surgeon or a white surgeon- not knowing anything else about either of them but their color? I’m betting that most people would care more about the MCAT scores than they would care about them being faithful to their wives or their golf scores. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2009, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-haven-firefighter-case/498268/162 "2009-06-04T17:08:21Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > There was not a shred–not a shred–of evidence that the process was unfair other than that it produced disparate results. “Testimony” that the test was not accurately designed is not evidence of unfairness toward a given group. No test is satisfactory to all participants, particularly those who perform poorly on it. > > And the only thing that makes it discardable is disparate results. If that, alone, is sufficient reason to render a test illegal, then nearly every single broadly-accepted standardized written (and many oral) test in this nation has just become illegal as a means test for qualification, because blacks as a group underperform on basically all of them to a greater ratio than the 4/5ths test requires. SATs; ACTs; LSATs; MCATs; ordinary academic exams; Pilot Certifications…the list is endless. > > We’ll end up in an absurd world where the only allowable tests are tests that prove everyone is equal. > > And my buddies at SCOTUS better agree with me on this. 😃 What are the shreds of evidence that it DID porduce a fair result? As far as I know about the decision, it is not based one bit on whether the justices themselves thought the test was fair or not, rather it was based on whether the rejection of the tests was a Title VII violation. The city adequately showed that the disparity of the test, along with other information they had gathered made it a reaosnable action for them take and WAS NOT a racially biased decision. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2009, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-haven-firefighter-case/498268/163 "2009-06-04T17:23:30Z")
> [@Gangster\_Octopus](#): > > What are the shreds of evidence that it DID porduce a fair result? As far as I know about the decision, it is not based one bit on whether the justices themselves thought the test was fair or not, rather it was based on whether the rejection of the tests was a Title VII violation. This is an absolutely correct analysis of the situation. And therefore is clearly out of place in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Fantome](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Fantome](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fantome)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2009, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-haven-firefighter-case/498268/164 "2009-06-04T17:32:40Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > What exactly should I infer when I read comments like the following in a thread (and context matters here which is why you should actually read the thread) where it has been suggested repeatedly that Blacks are genetically inferior: But it is reasonable to conclude after the cites that **Chief Pedant** provided that they are inferior test takers even _“into the post-medical school licensing exams (called the USMLE) and into the Specialty Board exams.”_ Any evidence presented is combated by you with, “but blacks are still treated like they’re black.” Even then, it really doesn’t matter. What’s the difference if the reason is genetic or environmental (as far as the debate presented by the OP)? If it’s environmental, something should be done to combat that, not give anyone a break on test scores because how unfair the world might be. ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2009, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-haven-firefighter-case/498268/165 "2009-06-04T18:43:27Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > Except that it deliberately truncates a more precise position to have an inappropriately negative rhetorical impact. And that does distract the conversation inappropriately. I don’t believe it distracts inappropriately. It succinctly portrays the conclusions you seem to have drawn; opinions which are unsupported, and distasteful enough for most people to have drawn their own negative conclusion of your character and logical reasoning without my rhetoric. > [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > The overwhelming evidence from thousands and thousands of tests is that various population groups, when averaged as a population, perform disparately on tests. Depends on how you define population groups. In general though, I understand your point and don’t wish to quibble with semantics. > [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > Specifically, a population group self-described as “black” will perform differently from a population group self-described as “white” on various tests. Again, generally speaking this is the case. > [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > If the test in question is ability for the NBA, blacks–as a group–will perform superiorly. This despite huge preparatory disadvantages. Are you still beating this dead horse? This is just not the case. There isn’t an NBA “test” first of all, and the racial and ethnic make up of the NBA varies so widely from decade to decade that it makes it nearly impossible to draw conclusions based on the current makeup. Genetics cannot explain those rapid changes. The same applies to other leagues like the MLB and NFL. I noticed you ducked the earlier questions about those counter examples. Why has Black representation in baseball fallen so dramatically in recent years? Your second point regarding preparatory disadvantages is technically true, but it misses the point entirely. Having more resources means you have more options to excel in other areas. More importantly, it doesn’t mean they are playing or practicing more often. It also ignores that the inner-city basketball system and culture is far better at molding young talent than the suburban one. > [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > If the test in question is the SAT, blacks–as a group–will perform inferiorly. This despite absolutely equivalent opportunity, including such variables as societal class and family income. There is no such thing as equivalent opportunity, and even if there were, it certainly doesn’t apply to similarly-situated people of different races if only for the fact that society treats them differently. > [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > Now you may complain that we have not rid the world of people who implicitly (perhaps even explicitly) believe in black or white (innate)inferiority for a given variable, but it is not as if their position is unsupportable, and it is not as if various alternate explanations of disparities among all groups–with varying degrees of difference magnitude and varying types of relative superiority–are well supported, either. Their position is pretty much unsupportable seeing as there is scant evidence for it, and there is overwhelming evidence for numerous other factors. > [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > To the contrary, most traditional explanations of differences–including opportunity and cultural bias–have not withstood scrutiny. Yes, they have. Do you have any evidence of compelling scrutiny to these theories? > [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > Populations are different. We’ll never get rid of those of us who think those differences are genetic until there is some sort of reasonable evidence that a genetic explanation is wrong. We can never prove that anymore than we can prove there is no God. All we can do is use the evidence we have in front of us. There is overwhelming evidence that other factors explain nearly all of the outcomes we see before us. It would be intellectually dishonest to say that genetics cannot play a role, but it is even more dishonest to assume they play a major role when we have far more compelling, and substantiated theories in front of us. It’s also morally problematic given our history, and the fact that such beliefs demonstrably exacerbate existing disparate outcomes in both directions. It makes it harder to White kids to believe they can play in the NBA when we tell them they are genetically inferior, and it also makes it harder for Blacks kids to do well on tests when you tell them they lack the cognitive ability. This what bothers me about people who hold opinions like you do. Not just ignoring contrary evidence, but also a callous disregard for the fact your beliefs affect people in serious ways. It magnifies the problems you are attempting to quantify. I’m not saying we shouldn’t try to advance our study of genetics even if it confirms your beliefs, but we need to do it in a responsible way that embraces evidence over anecdotes and conjecture. > [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > It is not enough to hope or wish that it is wrong. As I look at my family, with its identical cultural, social and opportunity variables, and see how different I am from my siblings, it is pretty obvious that genes affect who we are. But you didn’t have identical social and opportunity variables. Hell, your genes are probably more similar than the experiences, interactions, and opportunities you’ve had. ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2009, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-haven-firefighter-case/498268/166 "2009-06-04T19:05:48Z")
> [@Fantome](#): > > And no, I don’t need to show that MCAT scores are meaningful to competence in the operating room. You do if you are attempting to validate a preference for those who did well on the MCAT over those who didn’t do as well. > [@Fantome](#): > > I’m betting that most people would care more about the MCAT scores than they would care about them being faithful to their wives or their golf scores. Only because we’ve been conditioned to think one is more predictive than the other. That has simply not been proven. If someone produced a peer-reviewed study tomorrow that conclusively proved that doctors who cheat on their wives are 25% more likely to kill their patients, don’t you think people would want to go to doctors who are faithful to their spouses? The only difference is that instead of using studies, we are relying on our (often correct) presumption that smart people do well on tests, and are good at what they eventually do. > [@Fantome](#): > > But it is reasonable to conclude after the cites that **Chief Pedant** provided that they are inferior test takers even _“into the post-medical school licensing exams (called the USMLE) and into the Specialty Board exams.”_ Any evidence presented is combated by you with, “but blacks are still treated like they’re black.” It is a valid retort when such treatment has been demonstrably proven to have an effect on test those results (as it has). Noticeably absent was any evidence that these inferior test takes become inferior practitioners. > [@Fantome](#): > > Even then, it really doesn’t matter. What’s the difference if the reason is genetic or environmental (as far as the debate presented by the OP)? It does matter, see my above post. It also matters in terms of policy if you think you are dealing with people who cannot learn as well rather than those who have not been taught to. > [@Fantome](#): > > If it’s environmental, something should be done to combat that, not give anyone a break on test scores because how unfair the world might be. I think you are missing my point. What do you believe is the point of these tests? If they don’t reliably predict future performance or competence, and they are often not related to the job, what are we gaining from relying in them so heavily? ---
**Author:** ![Honesty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f04885/32.png) [@Honesty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honesty)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2009, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-haven-firefighter-case/498268/167 "2009-06-04T19:28:22Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > Populations are different. We’ll never get rid of those of us who think those differences are genetic until there is some sort of reasonable evidence that a genetic explanation is wrong. It is not enough to hope or wish that it is wrong. As I look at my family, with its identical cultural, social and opportunity variables, and see how different I am from my siblings, it is pretty obvious that genes affect who we are. If you think there are genetic differences, then can you point to any? Can you name one single study that shows differences in the gene expression in proteins that are required for memory retrieval, encoding, and storage between blacks and other “races”? Can you name one single study that shows racial differences in the expression of genes in cortical neurons? If you can confine any examples to the following high-impact, respectable journals: Cell, [Nature](http://www.nature.com/nature/index.html), [Neuron](http://www.cell.com/neuron/home), Science, and Neuroscience, it would be appreciated; though I’d eagerly look at other peer-reviewed references that you may have. Quick hijack: If blacks are intellectually inferior, that’d be fine by me. As long as my undergrad and graduate grades are retroactively adjusted to take into account that I had to overcome the sloth of my own I.Q. A fair exchange would be exchanging “B’s” to “A’s” and my “A’s” to “OMG!” and we’ll be even. I also want my GRE verbal, writing, and math percentile score increased, too. And a pony: a black one with a long, swishy tail and a short neck where I might don the beast with flowers. - Honesty ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2009, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-haven-firefighter-case/498268/168 "2009-06-04T19:35:10Z")
> [@Fantome](#): > > First of all, I’m not ignoring any facts. My response was to show that comparing a first year medical student to a board-certified surgeon when it comes to who you’d want to operate on you is not relevant to the debate as we have a lot more information than their MCAT scores in that equation. Comparing someone who didn’t need as high a score on their MCAT as someone else- with no further information- is, since that’s what we’re talking about. Why use the MCAT at all when plenty of other exams exist that are _much_ closer to measuring how much an actual physician knows…since, you know, that’s their intended purpose and stuff? I know it sounds crazy but 4 years of medical school tests and practicums, plus a very rigorous board exam has to carry more weight than a silly entrance exam score. Sweating over the MCAT as if it’s any kind of valid metric for assessing a physician’s worth makes as much sense to me as fretting over a Nobel Laureate’s high school GPA. Inevitably in discussions about Affirmative Action, I get the sense that opponents are inordinately focused on judging people’s competency by how rigorous it is for them to get _in_ rather than looking at how rigorous it is to get _out_. The unspoken admission is that one’s worth is not based on their actual accomplishments, but rather on how many arbitrary hoops they were able to jump through in order to simply make a particular accomplishment possible. The purpose of higher education seems entirely lost in these discussions. I’d imagine that if an alien were reading they’d think a kid with an below average SAT score who graduated cum laude from one of the toughest schools in the country is worthy of more contempt than the kid who aced the SAT but dang near flunked out due to time mismanagement and laziness. It’s the education that is of practical value, not a test score that purports to only predict the uptake of said education. Seems to me that anyone who has is smart enough to not only graduate from college, but then also go on to successfully graduate from medical school and then successfully gain licensure has more than proved themselves worthy enough to lance the boils from thine asses. If they aren’t truly qualified, then that’s more of indictment on the school that they graduated from and the licensing board who created the USMEL. Not on the admission committee that let them in. > [@](#): > > And no, I don’t need to show that MCAT scores are meaningful to competence in the operating room. It’s a hypothetical question. If the reader is rushed to the E.R. and from there rushed to the O.R., who would he rather have as a surgeon when he knows that black people don’t need as high a score as white people on their MCAT scores- a black surgeon or a white surgeon- not knowing anything else about either of them but their color? If I’m in the ER for something requiring immediate surgery, a physician’s MCAT score (or their high school GPA, or the grade they made on their 7th grade book report) is the last thing that would be on my mind. I’d probably be much more concerned about the hospital’s reputation because they’re the entity responsible for hiring and firing. They are going to be privy to more information about a doctor than I realistically could be. And any hospital that thinks it can tell by a physician’s race or MCAT score how good they are is not any kind of place that I’d want to find myself in. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2009, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-haven-firefighter-case/498268/169 "2009-06-04T19:52:53Z")
> [@DSYoungEsq](#): > > You aren’t going to answer it because it totally rips the heart out of your thesis. 😉 No it doesn’t it’s completely irrelevant. It’s actually a question designed to avoid the issue. ‘Who would you trust, the guy who’s been to med school or the guy who has never been to med school yet?’, is not a serious question and has no bearing on the argument. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2009, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-haven-firefighter-case/498268/170 "2009-06-04T19:54:41Z")
> [@Fantome](#): > > Apples and oranges. One has graduated medical school and the other hasn’t. The fair question is, “Given no other information, who would you most trust to know what they’re doing in the operating room? The board-certified surgeon who had to have a higher MCAT score because he’s white or be able to pass with a lower MCAT score because he’s black?” You hit the nail on the head there my friend. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2009, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-haven-firefighter-case/498268/171 "2009-06-04T20:01:18Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > The same personal biases that lead you to believe that testing, or even past performances (in many circumstances), are predictive of future performance or competence. I think most people make this mistake. They see what seems like a compelling, often strong correlation, and assume there is causation there; or that it will be predictive of future events with a high level of certainty. I find it’s more instructive to look at the counter examples (ie. [Ryan Leaf](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ryan_Leaf), [Harold Miner](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harold_Miner), [Christian Laettner](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Laettner), [Li’s Gaussian copula function](http://www.wired.com/techbiz/it/magazine/17-03/wp_quant?currentPage=all), [silicone breast implants,](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breast_implant#Silicone_gel_implants)etc. etc.) to help divorce one’s self from being overconfident in such things. Except the problem here is testing and past performances are PRECISELY what we judge everything by. Getting into deep epistemological problems regarding verifiability just cast doubt on our ability to verify ANYTHING by ANY criteria. Why have tests at all if they don’t verify anything? Why judge a Doctor based on recommendations if being a brilliant surgeon for ten years is not indicative of future performance? Again my issue here, to be clear is not, ‘black people are inferior’, but that our standards should be color blind. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2009, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-haven-firefighter-case/498268/172 "2009-06-04T20:03:41Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Why use the MCAT at all when plenty of other exams exist that are _much_ closer to measuring how much an actual physician knows…since, you know, that’s their intended purpose and stuff? I know it sounds crazy but 4 years of medical school tests and practicums, plus a very rigorous board exam has to carry more weight than a silly entrance exam score. Sweating over the MCAT as if it’s any kind of valid metric for assessing a physician’s worth makes as much sense to me as fretting over a Nobel Laureate’s high school GPA. This can be proven factually one way or another by ‘answering the fookin question.’ Are they given lower standards in the subsequent tests as well? ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2009, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-haven-firefighter-case/498268/173 "2009-06-04T20:08:42Z")
> [@Fantome](#): > > If the reader is rushed to the E.R. and from there rushed to the O.R., who would he rather have as a surgeon when he knows that black people don’t need as high a score as white people on their MCAT scores- a black surgeon or a white surgeon- not knowing anything else about either of them but their color? By the way, you’ve gone on to illustrate the “getting in” fixation that I’m talking about and its absurdity when taken to its logical conclusion. In your hypothetical, the black physician could have easily received his training from stellar institutions such as Harvard or Johns Hopkins, while the white physician could have gone to a small podunk school barely holding on to its accreditation. Even if the white guy _did_ have a higher MCAT score than his black counterpart, why in the hell should this factoid usurp the value of the black guy’s superior education? Are we really supposed to believe that a entrance exam can tell us which of these guys is best prepared to do open-heart surgery? ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2009, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-haven-firefighter-case/498268/174 "2009-06-04T20:11:26Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Are they given lower standards in the subsequent tests as well? I answered your question already, but I guess I wasn’t clear enough. No. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2009, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-haven-firefighter-case/498268/175 "2009-06-04T20:12:24Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > I answered your question already, but I guess I wasn’t clear enough. > > No. Ok, then that’s what matters. ---
**Author:** ![Fantome](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Fantome](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fantome)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2009, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-haven-firefighter-case/498268/176 "2009-06-04T20:54:34Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > You do if you are attempting to validate a preference for those who did well on the MCAT over those who didn’t do as well. I told you, my point was that I don’t because I was showing that the medical student to board-certified surgeon analogy is not actually analogous to the argument. My pet peeve with message board debates is making the same arguments over and over and when someone gives up repeating himself, the other poster is the perceived winner. I’ll answer the posts below one more time and then I’m done here. > [@](#): > > Only because we’ve been conditioned to think one is more predictive than the other. That has simply not been proven. Whatever. We’re taught that test scores matter and we allow professionals to become professionals based on test scores, so the majority of the world naturally believes test scores matter. If you believe they don’t, then you produce the evidence instead of asking me to. > [@](#): > > That has simply not been proven. If someone produced a peer-reviewed study tomorrow that conclusively proved that doctors who cheat on their wives are 25% more likely to kill their patients, don’t you think people would want to go to doctors who are faithful to their spouses? Not every decision we make is based on the results of a study we’re carrying around in the backs of our heads. You also brought up golf scores earlier. If I was in the O.R. and was given a choice between a surgeon who got lousy scores playing golf and one who got great ones, not having anything else to go by, I’d pick the one who was the better golfer. Surgery takes hand-eye coordination and so does golf. Do I need a study proving that there is a direct correlation between golf scores and surgery skill? No, just as I don’t need studies to come to all of the other conclusions that get me through life. > [@](#): > > The only difference is that instead of using studies, we are relying on our (often correct) presumption that smart people do well on tests, and are good at what they eventually do. Exactly. And with no other information, it’s more reasonable to go with the one that needed higher test scores than to pretend that information is totally irrelevant. > [@](#): > > It is a valid retort when such treatment has been demonstrably proven to have an effect on test those results (as it has). Noticeably absent was any evidence that these inferior test takes become inferior practitioners. You just said that we are often correct to presume that “smart people do well on tests, and are good at what they eventually do.” That says a lot. > [@](#): > > I think you are missing my point. What do you believe is the point of these tests? If they don’t reliably predict future performance or competence, and they are often not related to the job, what are we gaining from relying in them so heavily? You’d have to prove that first. > [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Why use the MCAT at all when plenty of other exams exist that are _much_ closer to measuring how much an actual physician knows…since, you know, that’s their intended purpose and stuff? What don’t you understand about “hypothetical”? The situation was not knowing anything else than that blacks don’t need as high a score on their MCATs. We can also add in the further information that blacks under perform whites on tests _“into the post-medical school licensing exams (called the USMLE) and into the Specialty Board exams.”_. Given no information besides those facts, I think it’s reasonable to want to see a white surgeon hovering over you in an emergency situation than a black one. > [@](#): > > Inevitably in discussions about Affirmative Action, I get the sense that opponents are inordinately focused on judging people’s competency by how rigorous it is for them to get _in_ rather than looking at how rigorous it is to get _out_. I don’t think so. I think discussions about Affirmative Action are more about the unfairness that exists when blacks are favored over whites because the color of their skin. I’m done here; you guys can rip me apart now. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2009, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-haven-firefighter-case/498268/177 "2009-06-04T22:51:56Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Except the problem here is testing and past performances are PRECISELY what we judge everything by. Getting into deep epistemological problems regarding verifiability just cast doubt on our ability to verify ANYTHING by ANY criteria. Exactly. That’s the problem (even more so with testing). We shouldn’t think you can test and quantify these things with such accuracy. Not to a point where we are bemoaning the inferior scores of minority practitioners that can still effectively perform. > [@mswas](#): > > Why have tests at all if they don’t verify anything? They can tell you plenty of things. They can tell you if you have poor eyesight or if you have cancer. When it comes to measuring performance, they are only moderately effective, and are too easily manipulated and over-relied upon. That’s why you have people spending $2.5 billion a year to prepare for them, and also why you get people like Ryan Leaf or Barry Zito. > [@mswas](#): > > Why judge a Doctor based on recommendations if being a brilliant surgeon for ten years is not indicative of future performance? Recent relevant performance is often a good indicator. I was lumping two points together before. However, there should still be some acknowledgment that those recommendations and experience does not guarantee anything in the future. It’s probably the best indicator we have, but that does not mean you shouldn’t question it. > [@Fantome](#): > > I told you, my point was that I don’t because I was showing that the medical student to board-certified surgeon analogy is not actually analogous to the argument. Which you did, but then managed to make your own error. > [@Fantome](#): > > We’re taught that test scores matter and we allow professionals to become professionals based on test scores, so the majority of the world naturally believes test scores matter. If you believe they don’t, then you produce the evidence instead of asking me to. It already has been presented. More importantly, the burden of proof is on you, not me. > [@Fantome](#): > > Not every decision we make is based on the results of a study we’re carrying around in the backs of our heads. You also brought up golf scores earlier. If I was in the O.R. and was given a choice between a surgeon who got lousy scores playing golf and one who got great ones, not having anything else to go by, I’d pick the one who was the better golfer. Surgery takes hand-eye coordination and so does golf. Do I need a study proving that there is a direct correlation between golf scores and surgery skill? No, just as I don’t need studies to come to all of the other conclusions that get me through life. Then you will continue to walk though life as a person blinded by biases. > [@Fantome](#): > > Exactly. And with no other information, it’s more reasonable to go with the one that needed higher test scores than to pretend that information is totally irrelevant. No it’s not more reasonable since one’s MCAT scores don’t tell us anything about the quality of the doctor. It’s just a more alluring bias. Is this really that hard for you to understand? > [@Fantome](#): > > You just said that we are often correct to presume that “smart people do well on tests, and are good at what they eventually do.” That says a lot. It says that the your (our) biases will not make us look like fools as often as a broken clock will. I would still contend that it is not particularly reliable. > [@Fantome](#): > > You’d have to prove that first. It has been in several specific examples including the New Haven case. Why don’t you answer the question instead of taking your ball and going home? ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2009, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-haven-firefighter-case/498268/178 "2009-06-05T02:23:25Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > Exactly. That’s the problem (even more so with testing). We shouldn’t think you can test and quantify these things with such accuracy. Not to a point where we are bemoaning the inferior scores of minority practitioners that can still effectively perform. Alright you’ve convinced me. I’m going to go find a good Banyan to sit under. ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2009, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-haven-firefighter-case/498268/179 "2009-06-05T02:23:29Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > If you think there are genetic differences, then can you point to any? I am aware of the sensitivity of this topic. I’m ok with not trying to argue anyone out of their personal belief that it cannot be so, although I reject outright any inference that those of us who believe differences are genetic must have negative motives. For those of you for whom the evidence is “overwhelming” that various nurturing factors explain differences among populations, have at it. The truth has a way of coming out. In the instance at hand, I don’t think we’re more than a quarter of a century or so from finding–or failing to find–any relevant genes. If we find all differences among populations are environmental, I for one will be delighted, and I’ll be delighted to live in a world where we don’t have to have race-based AA to make up for what mother nature shortchanged. I believe the differences are genetic, and I find the evidence convincing. For me the outcome of the New Haven test is ordinary, and expected, and in line with tens of thousands of other tests. I don’t find the reason for it “elusive” at all. I don’t have to try and make a living pretending what is not true–that all groups will perform equally–is true, like the test’s marketers. I have the luxury of simply sitting back and watch society slowly figure it out. And I have the responsibility–which I take seriously–of being honest about what I see as the obvious answer, and lobbying for a society which takes into account those innate differences by creating pathways for all to succeed. If the rest of you want to await the Inuits’ turn to dominate basketball, the blacks’ turn to overrun STEM Phd programs and the whites’ return to track and field, go right ahead. ---
**Author:** ![Honesty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f04885/32.png) [@Honesty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honesty)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2009, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-haven-firefighter-case/498268/180 "2009-06-05T06:06:55Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > I have the luxury of simply sitting back and watch society slowly figure it out. And I have the responsibility–which I take seriously–of being honest about what I see as the obvious answer, and lobbying for a society which takes into account those innate differences by creating pathways for all to succeed. ☹ What would be the pathways for all to succeed? Should there be a caste system? I do not want to debate with you, I sincerely want to understand your point-of-view. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-haven-firefighter-case/498268.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-haven-firefighter-case/498268.md?page=10)