The New Haven Firefighter Case

If we want to have reasonably equal representation by groups who seem to want to be considered as a group–and as an example, the group self-described as blacks in America–we have to set group-based AA quotas. We can’t get there by providing equal opportunity, because equal opportunity does not produce equal outcomes. As the thread above shows, the reason for this is debated endlessly in circles, with some of us holding that the reason for this immutability of disparate results is underlying genetic differences at a group level, and some of us holding that it is simply disparate nurturing–environmental influences–of some type.

I hold that the primary explanation for performance differences between the average of all blacks and the average of all whites–and pretty much any two population groups–is genetic and therefore permanently immutable until we manage to mix our gene pools a good deal more thoroughly. (I note that even within the phenotypically “white” population, the differences among intra-white groups with varying levels of societal success are still largely underpinned by genetic differences, but it is not a sensitive issue because they look more phenotypically the same.) High-income, high-academically-performing and high-sports-performing groups are genetically blessed with a different maximum potential than are low-income, low-academically-performing and low-sports-performing groups.

In simple terms, smart and athletic groups succeed more often than less-smart and less athletic groups in our society, and the same basic rank-ordering results across all populations.

The dilemma with which we are faced is that some groups self-identify–and are identified by society–into a population and wish to be considered as members of that group, and the history of this country has created grave injustices toward some of those populations, most notably our black population.

I believe that, over the next couple of decades, we’ll see a shift away from color-based self- and societal-identification. We’ll see successful and professional blacks, for instance, identify with that class more than an appearance-based classification. Until that happens, though, we are stuck with a disparate distribution of color/race-based populations.

I see no workable remedy for this besides race-based AA quotas. We can argue ad nauseum if this is fair or not; life is unfair. But because I think there is a greater good for a society in which large-scale self-identifying populations have broad representation at all success tiers possible, and because I think those same self-identifying populations are differently enabled at a genetic level, we won’t get to more mixed society without a deliberate and specific effort to overcome what mother nature has screwed up.

We have done this for 40 years by law and by back-door machinations. We do it every day on an ongoing basis across educational institutions and at the level of corporate employment. While I am more blunt than many of my colleagues about the “real” reason we need AA, I basically don’t care whether someone thinks the real reason is historical injustice and its consequence or genetic differences.

The greatest good in my mind, for right now, is a diverse society, as free as possible from the tremendous strain incurred by a perception of unfairness, even if the reasoning underlying the cause for the disparate distribution is wrong.

The Supreme Court ruled for the firefighters, 5-4.

And rightly so.

Posts claiming this discredits Sotomayor in 3…2…1…

Hmm, so Kennedy says, in effect, you just can’t do what Mayor DeStefano did to Frank Ricci – yank the rug out from under him after he took the test because you didn’t like the racial results – at least not without a “strong-basis-in-evidence” that you’d lose a minority plaintiff’s disparate impact discrimination lawsuit. And if the facts resemble the facts in New Haven, Kennedy announces, then this here Supreme Court says you won’t lose that lawsuit; so don’t throw Ricci’s test results out. Capisce? (Warning: This here Supreme Court likely to be replaced by a more Obamaesque Supreme Court in not-too-distant future.)

The real question is why this modest and perfectly reasonable response to an egregious injustice was merely 5-4 rather than 9-0? Still, I can see how Ginsburg could be sore about this. Kennedy is being ingenuous by reading the 1991 Civil Rights Act naively. After all, the Democratic majority that passed the 1991 Civil Rights Act enshrining Griggs’ disparate impact theory may have “declaimed” racial preferences in public, but the whole point of the legislation was to provide racial preferences by tipping the balance between Type I and Type II errors in favor of legally preferred groups.

Well, your preemption says more than any critics ever could. It would be interesting to see if the GOP has the balls to grill the Wise Latina Woman on an issue when she is clearly holds a minority opinion to the rest of the country, but I doubt they will. It would look bad. But maybe they’ll call Mayor DeStefano as a witness to beat up on him over the injustice he personally did to Frank Ricci, an injustice upheld, fortunately only temporarily, by Judge Sotomayor. If they are too sensitive to ask tough questions of the Wise Latina, they can ask them of the not so wise white guy.

Here’s a description of how the test was created and administered, from the Court’s opinion:

The Supreme Court decision was 5 to 4. She is barely out of step with a conservative Supreme Court, let alone the public. To imply she is out of step with the country is incorrect.

So judges are supposed to rule by public opinion? And Sotomayor was one of three judges who ruled on the case.

Why - is one of the Justices in today’s majority about to retire? Scalia and Kennedy turn 73 this year, but I haven’t heard that either of them are having health problems. And Thomas, Alito, and Roberts are 12-18 years younger. The inside scoop, please!

You’re just reading the wrong wingnuts - a number of them are saying this was a 9-0 stomping of Sotomayor.

I think in both medicine and the law, your training counts for more than your IQ.

I know two and they both serve in “underserved urban communities”

Is there a reason for thinking that non-Asian minorities systematically perform better on training, so as to cancel out their disadvantage on quantifiable skills? Because that’s the only way the preferential treatment is not racist.

Nobody flunks out of medical school. Something like 99% of medical students graduate. They all take the same medical board exam and they all have to pass, its not graded on a curve. After that point its about experience.

I think you make too much of the genetic differences between races. I’m not saying that there isn’t something to this whole genetics thing. The children of tall parents tend to be tall and the children of smart parents tend to be smart but I don’t believe that environment plays as trivial a role as some people like to believe. In fact I think environment can play a significant enough role to more than erase the effects of genetic advantage.

The average North Korean is like a foot shorter than the average South Korean. The average North Korean has significantly lower IQ scores than the average South Korean (we are basing this on the IQ of North Korean defectors so there may be some form of adverse selection).
Its been less than 60 years since Korea was split in half.

If West Africans have such great twitch reflex then why are South Korean the best twitch video game players in the world, much much better than West Africans. Why are South Korean the best break dancers in the world, much much better than West Africans?

"A fundamental problem with studies of IQ-test results is that "nobody really knows what intelligence is,’ says psychometrician Peter H. Schonemann of Purdue University in West Lafayette, Ind. "

This makes me think that this whole IQ debate is more than just a bunch of people think supply side eocnomics works because it conforms to their world view.

Does that show that that everyone’s equally qualified, or does it show that after the initial race-normed screen there’s very little else that you can use to separate the wheat from the chaff?

Are you asking if the black student manages to keep up with their white counterparts in medical school? I dunno but with three doctors in the family and having discussed this issue in the past, the differences are not noticable if they exist and they are certainly not as dramatic as the MCAT score disparity would imply.

About 81% graduate within 4 years and 96% within 10 years, but African Ameican students have lowest rate of graduation. Not sure how this affects the arguments.

I think this is a tough issue. Clearly Blacks and some other minorities face hurdles, and it is to society’s benefit to close the gap in opportunity and achievment, but is it fair to the white fire fighters to deny them promotions when they took and passed the requirements?

I grew up white and poor and liked standardized tests becuase they allowed me to compete using objective standards rather than having teachers judge me based on my clothes, religion, who my parents were, etc. I resented the fact that Senator Brooke’schildren would get an advantage in college admission over me.

If we continue affirmative action I think it should be based on income, whether your parents attended college, if you grew up in a disadvantaged neighborhood, etc. The effect would be the same, but you wouldn’t be pitting races against each other. For all we know, some of the white fire fighters that passed the test and were denied promotion might have faced hurdles in their life equivalent to some of the minority candidates.

That’s just crazy talk.

Wait for them to come to their senses, I guess.
Looks like it will have to be another time, though.