# The new legal system for "enemy combatants" frightens me. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 1, 2002, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-legal-system-for-enemy-combatants-frightens-me/139788 "2002-12-01T17:16:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2002, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-legal-system-for-enemy-combatants-frightens-me/139788/1 "2002-12-01T17:16:00Z")
[http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A58308-2002Nov30.html](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A58308-2002Nov30.html) “For example, under authority it already has or is asserting in court cases, the administration, with approval of the special Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court, could order a clandestine search of a U.S. citizen’s home and, based on the information gathered, **secretly** declare the citizen an enemy combatant, to be held indefinitely at a U.S. military base” (bolding mine) “Civil libertarians insist that the courts should searchingly review Bush’s actions, so that he is always held accountable to an independent branch of government. Administration officials, however, imply that the main check on the president’s performance in wartime is political – that if the public perceives his approach to terrorism is excessive or ineffective, it will vote him out of office.” Umm, if it’s all done secretly, then the voting public won’t even **KNOW** if it was excessive, will they? ---
**Author:** ![Hazel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e56c9b/32.png) [@Hazel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hazel)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2002, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-legal-system-for-enemy-combatants-frightens-me/139788/2 "2002-12-01T18:11:14Z")
It’s alarming. “You’re an enemy combatant! We’re seizing all your property and taking your children away.” ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2002, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-legal-system-for-enemy-combatants-frightens-me/139788/3 "2002-12-01T19:21:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Revtim \* > **"Civil libertarians insist that the courts should searchingly review Bush’s actions, so that he is always held accountable to an independent branch of government. Administration officials, however, imply that the main check on the president’s performance in wartime is political – that if the public perceives his approach to terrorism is excessive or ineffective, it will vote him out of office."** So what’s the check on the President if the American public votes him back in 2004? ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2002, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-legal-system-for-enemy-combatants-frightens-me/139788/4 "2002-12-01T19:38:43Z")
Good point **Northern Piper** , a 2nd term lame duck will have no check whatsover. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2002, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-legal-system-for-enemy-combatants-frightens-me/139788/5 "2002-12-01T19:55:38Z")
And you’re just getting scared \* now? \* Hell, I was scared back in 2000 and everyone laughed at me and called me a drama queen. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2002, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-legal-system-for-enemy-combatants-frightens-me/139788/6 "2002-12-01T22:37:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Stoid \* > \*\*And you’re just getting scared \* now? \* Hell, I was scared back in 2000 and everyone laughed at me and called me a drama queen. \*\* That is a typical Goldsteinist lie! I never said you were wrong that Big Brother and the Thought Police were coming. I said that you were wrong that it was a bad thing (My post was titled RE-All You Unwords). It is ++good. Slavery_is_freedom. War_is_ peace. But you’re mind is full of wrong thoughts and you can’t see the truth. Just relax and Big Brother will tell you what to think. I love Big Brother. [sub]I believe that if Orwell were alive today he would consider writing _1984_ to have been nearly a complete waste of time. Looking at society in general and our government in particular, it would be clear to him that his warnings were ignored and his lessons forgotten. George would consider it a total loss, except that the Eurythmics did a song, Sex Crimes/1984, based on the book. ---
**Author:** ![Tehanu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ee7513/32.png) [@Tehanu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tehanu)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2002, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-legal-system-for-enemy-combatants-frightens-me/139788/7 "2002-12-01T22:51:19Z")
Do we, as the people, have any assurance that the system of checks and balances will come into play and correct this? I was already horrified when Congress granted Bush the ability to declare war without going through the legislature. I am beginning to find myself truly frightened at the thought of George W. Bush’s re-election. ---
**Author:** ![NaSultainne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/8797f3/32.png) [@NaSultainne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NaSultainne)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2002, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-legal-system-for-enemy-combatants-frightens-me/139788/8 "2002-12-02T03:57:22Z")
I’m also concerned about these actions being taken, literally without public reaction. I venture to say that I’m almost agape at the events taking shape. And don’t be too sure that Orwell wouldn’t be nodding his head right now. After all, his telescreen could, with very little effort, be our computers today. However, unlike certain other posters who shall remain nameless \<\<_cough–STOID–cough_\>\>, I have to say I disagree that Bush et al, are taking steps that any administration in place after 9/11 and subsequent attacks around the friggin’ world, for pete’s sake, would not be taking. NOT that I’m condoning these steps at all. It’s a clear case of kidnapping the baby, with the bathwater to be used as evidence at a later time. Something to think about - what else will we lose as a result of the _next_ terrorist attack here? ---
**Author:** ![NaSultainne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/8797f3/32.png) [@NaSultainne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NaSultainne)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2002, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-legal-system-for-enemy-combatants-frightens-me/139788/9 "2002-12-02T04:06:58Z")
**Tehanu** , before I begin sounding like a libertarian, or worse, a \<\<_gasp_\>\> democrat, let me defend Bush to this extent and correct you as well. Congress did not give Bush permission to declare some nebulous war without them. Congress gave him permission to pursue action against Iraq and that only. AND with a decade of evidence that UNSCR 687 has been flouted routinely by Hussein, signatory to the ceasefire, which ended the Gulf War. And even diehard demos have to admit that his actions in that regard, to date, have been spot on. Yes, he is moving lots of manpower and equipment into that region while the UNSCOM team does its work. Rightly so. How do you persuade a bully with 11 years of defiance of the international community that _this_ time you’re serious? You keep the pressure on, and don’t for one stinkin’ minute let up. And it does _seem_ to be working, now doesn’t it? So, at this point in time, I say he’s doing a swell job in that area. Back to the OP at hand, as per my last point, there I think we have some problems. Big ones. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2002, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-legal-system-for-enemy-combatants-frightens-me/139788/10 "2002-12-02T05:18:33Z")
> [@](#): > > **NaSultainne:** Something to think about - what else will we lose as a result of the next terrorist attack here? [How about your “Miranda rights”?](http://newsobserver.com/24hour/nation/story/654797p-4920150c.html) > [@](#): > > A ruling that minimizes defendants’ rights would be useful to the administration, which supports Oxnard’s appeal, in its questioning of terrorism suspects, experts said. ---
**Author:** ![kniz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c37758/32.png) [@kniz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kniz)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2002, 7:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-legal-system-for-enemy-combatants-frightens-me/139788/11 "2002-12-02T07:45:03Z")
What is the difference between this and the RICO statute? Sure it has been used in some non-mob cases and a few abuses have occurred, but I’ve never personally felt my rights were endangered by it and I’m glad it has given the Mafia fits. Also secretly declared means they have to declare it to someone and that is the courts. They just don’t need to broadcast it, so that the person being declared an enemy combatant doesn’t start covering his ass. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2002, 7:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-legal-system-for-enemy-combatants-frightens-me/139788/12 "2002-12-02T07:56:54Z")
I find it very frightening that people, including American citizens, can be held indefinitely without charges and without access to an attorney. It is chilling and I have never been as concerned as I am now. I have read that very few legislators have read the complete PATRIOT ACT. The irony is that there ought to be a law against voting to support it if you haven’t read it. But who would make that law? The thing that may really destroy our country is the gutting of the Bill of Rights. The most frightening enemy is within. Amnesty International’s website has been a source of good information on the political prisoners in this country. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2002, 10:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-legal-system-for-enemy-combatants-frightens-me/139788/13 "2002-12-02T10:06:06Z")
Related to the bombings in kenya: > [@](#): > > [http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/africa/12/01/kenya.israel/index.html](http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/africa/12/01/kenya.israel/index.html) > Alicia Kalhammer, a U.S. citizen, and husband Jose Tena, a Spanish citizen with a resident alien card, drew police attention when they tried to check out of their hotel shortly after the bombing. They were released Saturday after two days in Kenyan police custody. > > “When we were taken to the police station and held there, we thought that these people could put us in jail and throw away the key, and no one would know that we were here,” Kalhammer told CNN. I guess they were lucky to be in Kenya and not in the US. In Kenya they soon had lawyers and consular aid while in the USA they could indeed be held secretly. Another case: [http://www.cnn.com/2002/LAW/12/01/scotus.police.questioning.ap/index.html](http://www.cnn.com/2002/LAW/12/01/scotus.police.questioning.ap/index.html) A man happens by a police investigation and is shot five times by the police. After he is shot five times and is being taken in an ambulance and in great pain, the police keep interrogating him. > [@](#): > > “I am dying! … What are you doing to me?” Martinez is heard screaming on a recording of the persistent interrogation by police Sgt. Ben Chavez in Oxnard, a city of 182,000 about 60 miles northwest of Los Angeles. > > “If you are going to die, tell me what happened,” the officer said. He continued the questioning in an ambulance and an emergency room while Martinez pleaded for treatment. At times, he left the room to allow medical personnel to work, but he returned and continued pressing for answers. No Miranda warning was given. If this does not qualify as torture I believe it should. The man was left blind and paraplegic. He was never charged with anything. He just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. What does the DA have to say? > [@](#): > > you can’t look at it from a philanthropic standpoint. He tried to kill police officers or they thought he was trying to kill them … Does the tape (of the interrogation) sound bad? Yes, the guy is in agony. But the questioning was to get at the truth. Great justification. In order to get to “the truth” the police should be allowed to torture innocent people. As I have said in other threads, I have much more fear of the legal authorities than I do of the terrorists for the simple reason that the chance of being the victim of terrorists are infinitely small whereas the legal authorities are everywhere and every day we have to deal with them. Taking into account their broad powers and how often those powers are abused, I definitely believe I am much more at risk of being abused by the legal authorities than by terrorists. ---
**Author:** ![chula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a4c791/32.png) [@chula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chula)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2002, 10:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-legal-system-for-enemy-combatants-frightens-me/139788/14 "2002-12-02T10:31:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by NaSultainne \* > **However, unlike certain other posters who shall remain nameless \<\<_cough–STOID–cough_\>\>, I have to say I disagree that Bush et al, are taking steps that any administration in place after 9/11 and subsequent attacks around the friggin’ world, for pete’s sake, would not be taking.** It’s funny that people think of 9/11 as being _so_. It was an especially dramatic act, but many countries have faced terrorism on their soil. I’m not going to attempt a systematic evaluation of every government’s reaction, but I can’t think of another example of such a marked restriction on previously held civil liberties. I’m no fan of Democrats, but it’s inconceivable to me that a Democratic president would impose such measures. But that’s conjecture. My thoughts since Bush took office, especially since 9/11, have been “Oh my god, it’s even worse than I imagined it would be.” It’s shocking that there’s little public outrage expressed over what’s going on. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2002, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-legal-system-for-enemy-combatants-frightens-me/139788/15 "2002-12-02T12:51:57Z")
I think you seriously overestimate the capacity of the American people for outrage, **chula**. Freedom is for me, not for thee. Song of the Day: “Sheep” by Pink Floyd. ---
**Author:** ![bayonet1976](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/77aa72/32.png) [@bayonet1976](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bayonet1976)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2002, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-legal-system-for-enemy-combatants-frightens-me/139788/16 "2002-12-02T19:01:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by chula \* > I’m no fan of Democrats, but it’s inconceivable to me that a Democratic president would impose such measures. But that’s conjecture. My thoughts since Bush took office, especially since 9/11, have been “Oh my god, it’s even worse than I imagined it would be.” It’s shocking that there’s little public outrage expressed over what’s going on. \*\* Bet some japanese-americans will disagree. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2002, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-legal-system-for-enemy-combatants-frightens-me/139788/17 "2002-12-02T19:46:29Z")
**kniz** , how can you make any analogy between this and the RICO statute? RICO still requires the state to prove an accused is guilty in a public court. > [@](#): > > A more expansive view holds that in order to be found guilty of violating the RICO statute, the government must prove beyond a reasonable doubt: (1) that an enterprise existed; (2) that the enterprise affected interstate commerce; (3) that the defendant was associated with or employed by the enterprise; (4) that the defendant engaged in a pattern of racketeering activity; and (5) that the defendant conducted or participated in the conduct of the enterprise through that pattern of racketeering activity through the commission of at least two acts of racketeering activity as set forth in the indictment. It criminalizes participation in a crime syndicate, and is a decent piece of legislation. Its applications outside of what we tend to think of as “gangland” aren’t so egregious. Hell, it could certainly be applied in the prosecution of organized terrorists. No problem. In short, law-abiding Americans don’t feel uneasy about the RICO Statute because it’s hard to imagine it being used to any effect against an innocent person. On the other hand, when you establish a system by which people can just “disappear,” it’s not too difficult to imagine it being used against people whom the administration simply feels are inconvenient. “Our spooks searched your home and found a large quantity of printed material relating to terrorism amongst your personal effects.” “Whaaa? Oh… you mean my Tom Clancy novels? That’s ridiculous!” “The Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court considers you a credible threat to National Security. This way, please.” Outlandish, but without public scrutiny, there are no guarantees against similar, perhaps more elaborate, abuses. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2002, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-legal-system-for-enemy-combatants-frightens-me/139788/18 "2002-12-02T21:08:02Z")
I’ve had enough. When the Glrious Bricker Revolution comes, first up against the wall with the the people that post half-truths, or deliberately slanted recitations of fact, on message boards in an effort to pursuade others of their position. “The First Amendment!” they will cry. “I have a right to lie, or shade the facts under the First Amendment!” But your cries will fall on deaf ears, as you are mercilessly pelted with can upon can of Silly String, and then left to wander the streets, the remants of the string a badge of dishonor for all to see. > [@](#): > > If this does not qualify as torture I believe it should. The man was left blind and paraplegic. He was never charged with anything. He just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. If that were the case, then there would probably not be a appeal on this point. His statement to the police of against his own interest; he admits to having tried to grab the officer’s gun. He’s seeking to exclude that statement in his lawsuit agianst the police. Now, it’s a matter for legitimate debate as to whether he should be permitted to do so. Indeed, the narrow issue the Court is considering, as we discussed in another thread, is whether the police violation of the right to custodial _Miranda_ warnings gives rise to a civil action under 42 USC § 1983, and, if it does, whether the officer can assert qualified immunity. Reasonable people may disagree on this point. But to characterize the plaintiff as an innocent man, in the wrong place at the wrong time, seems… a tad dishonest. - Rick ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2002, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-legal-system-for-enemy-combatants-frightens-me/139788/19 "2002-12-02T21:16:37Z")
Bricker, he was never charged with anything and, considering the circumstances of his confession, I conclude it is not reliable or admissible. With the facts I have to go by my conclusion is one of government agents abusing a private person. YMMV Some police departments are chronic abusers of people’s rights. Others may be a bit better in that respect but I believe &very\* few are spotless. Giving the government and the police more power is a bad idea IMHO. Who will protect us from the government and their police? ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2002, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-legal-system-for-enemy-combatants-frightens-me/139788/20 "2002-12-02T21:44:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by sailor \* > \*_Some police departments are chronic abusers of people’s rights. Others may be a bit better in that respect but I believe &very_ few are spotless. Giving the government and the police more power is a bad idea IMHO. Who will protect us from the government and their police? \*\* I keep remembering a bit of dialogue from _A Man For All Seasons_ This is paraphrased because I hate the play and refuse to search through it for the lines. Thomas-The fortress of law protects us. I would never damage it. Angry Young Man-Not even to hunt down the devil? T-No. AYM- I would. I would smash every stone in my way until I had him. T-And when the devil turns and begins hunting you, what will be left to protect you? If you become the enemy, you lose. If America becomes a place where police can search and plant bugs without warrants; where dissent is treason; where a citizen can arrested, tried, and jailed in secret and without counsel, it will have been destroyed just as surely as if the terrorists had won. ``` You cannot protect freedom by taking it away from people. ``` [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-legal-system-for-enemy-combatants-frightens-me/139788.md?page=2)