# The new political dichotomy? Globalism vs Patriotism **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 26, 2018, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-political-dichotomy-globalism-vs-patriotism/821961 "2018-09-26T18:28:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Akaj](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/akaj/32/145_2.png) [@Akaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Akaj)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2018, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-political-dichotomy-globalism-vs-patriotism/821961/41 "2018-09-26T22:31:07Z")
> [@Jim\_Peebles](#): > > a) What has the administration done that is corrupt? On what day? ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2018, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-political-dichotomy-globalism-vs-patriotism/821961/42 "2018-09-26T22:52:18Z")
> [@Jim\_Peebles](#): > > a) What has the administration done that is corrupt? > > … I think this is all I need to see. I don’t think this is worth my time. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2018, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-political-dichotomy-globalism-vs-patriotism/821961/43 "2018-09-26T22:58:01Z")
Patriotism is wanting what’s good for your nation. Globalism is wanting what’s good for all nations. Wanting what’s bad for other nations isn’t patriotism, and is in fact counter to it, because it usually results in what’s bad for your nation, too. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2018, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-political-dichotomy-globalism-vs-patriotism/821961/44 "2018-09-26T23:53:37Z")
The political dichotomy of the present is Trump and not-Trump. Everything else in US politics has been suborned into this pairing, because Trump is President and his party is doing pretty much nothing to tamp down his incompetence, incoherence, and divisive and bigoted rhetoric. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2018, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-political-dichotomy-globalism-vs-patriotism/821961/45 "2018-09-26T23:55:52Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > The political dichotomy of the present is Trump and not-Trump. Everything else in US politics has been suborned into this pairing, because Trump is President and his party is doing pretty much nothing to tamp down his incompetence, incoherence, and divisive and bigoted rhetoric. Well, that and they’re doing things that propel the United States towards ruin, like deficit increases and trade wars. ---
**Author:** ![JB99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/439d5e/32.png) [@JB99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JB99)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2018, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-political-dichotomy-globalism-vs-patriotism/821961/46 "2018-09-27T00:02:20Z")
> [@DavidwithanR](#): > > Patriotism is never a political issue. It can’t be one. Anyone who votes is patriotic, period. > > The conflict over whether nationalism (not patriotism) is good, is an extremely old and well-known one, nothing new there. Anything Trump wants is ‘Patriotic.’ Anything Republicans want is ‘Patriotic.’ Democrats, liberals, educators, Non-Christians, and non-whites are all ‘Unpatriotic.’ Some of the most prominent conservative voices explicitly state that democrats and liberals are traitors. Meanwhile, the guy who actually, literally, on national television, chose Russia over his own government is DEFINITELY a patriot. Yeah. America is fucked. The concept that global trade and mutual cooperation could have an actual benefit to America is completely lost on these people, because they believe the world is zero-sum. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2018, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-political-dichotomy-globalism-vs-patriotism/821961/47 "2018-09-27T02:27:10Z")
Economic nationalism and Protectionism isn’t new in this country or abroad. One segment of the right has been trying to create a insurgency by the middle class surrounding nationalism for over a century now, we have just been lucky they failed. Just look at the claims made during eras of high tariffs and you will see it. The labeling of labor unions as communist, a disdain for Intellectuals and the arts, obsession with national security and false claims of idolatry while discarding the ideals those symbols stand for… Had the US not suffered the great depression we would have been likely been part of the Axis powers. JP Morgan, Henry Ford and Wall Street fawned over Mussolini. The prominent America First movement members like William Randolph Hearst and Charles Lindbergh praised Hitler. While history will probably prevent many coming out publicly stating that they are enthusiasts of fascism but their goals haven’t shifted much. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2018, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-political-dichotomy-globalism-vs-patriotism/821961/48 "2018-09-27T03:38:23Z")
> [@Jim\_Peebles](#): > > No, it isn’t. This is just the last resort argument: “I can’t point to anything bigoted in what Trump said, so I am going to assert he is speaking in code. And under that fantasized decoding, he said something bigoted.” Oh…Kayyy, but what exactly is it then, in your view? I believe you are not an anti-Semite, but could you please explain what you think globalism is. I hope it isn’t just trade agreements and alliances, because I’m hard pressed to see what’s anti-patriotic about those. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2018, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-political-dichotomy-globalism-vs-patriotism/821961/49 "2018-09-27T04:17:55Z")
> [@Jasmine](#): > > I see it as “globalism” versus “nationalism”. Trump, being the master manipulator that he is, has cleverly couched it in terms that imply that one is unpatriotic if one puts the good of the entire planet first. > > People who are still living in the 1950s haven’t figured out that putting the good of the entire planet first is what is really most beneficial to America in the final analysis. Yes the OP is confusing patriotism with nationalism. Its not too surprising as the right has been pushing this view for decades. [Obligatory explanatory cartoon](http://smbc-comics.com/comic/an-important-distinction) ---
**Author:** ![E-DUB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/e-dub/32/403_2.png) [@E-DUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-DUB)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2018, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-political-dichotomy-globalism-vs-patriotism/821961/50 "2018-09-27T04:25:54Z")
The term I use for “nationalism” is “patriotism’s evil twin”. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2018, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-political-dichotomy-globalism-vs-patriotism/821961/51 "2018-09-27T06:01:01Z")
Is support for Disney and the rest of America’s booming entertainment industry unpatriotic? This is globalism writ large. How about the Boeing Company, America’s largest exporter? Do Trump and the “Patriots” hate Boeing? At least 3000 years ago, Egyptians enjoyed silk made in China. Amber from the Baltic Sea was being traded for obsidian from the Tyrrhenian Sea long before that. Ritual jadeite axes manufactured in Italy were found in Scotland 6000 years ago. Is that when it all started to go bad? ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2018, 6:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-political-dichotomy-globalism-vs-patriotism/821961/52 "2018-09-27T06:28:04Z")
As _fascism_ is over used as a claim I am including Dr. Britts fairly restrictive list. I don’t think we will reach there fully but are tending to it for similar reasons. > [@](#): > > 1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism > 2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights > 3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause > 4. Supremacy of the Military > 5. Rampant Sexism > 6. Controlled Mass Media > 7. Obsession with National Security > 8. Religion and Government are Intertwined > 9. Corporate Power is Protected > 10. Labor Power is Suppressed > 11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts > 12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment > 13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption > 14. Fraudulent Elections. While it is a bit of a problem as far as cognitive dissonance goes #9 shows how groups who tend this direction will tend to try and protect Disney/Boeing but due to #1 they assume that everyone one else will buy their superior stuff despite their protectionist policies. It is a political philosophy completely driven by the fearful and thus the expecting logic to work is a challenge. Walt Disney told Mussolini that he going to run for President in 1936 in private BTW. Eastern Europeans, Catholics and Jews were playing #3 back then thus the anti-semitic BS from the US federal government, Charles Lindbergh, Walt Disney etc… As the US rose to power by being Europe’s cheep labor and natural resource source even US history would prove these ideas wrong if they weren’t so paralyzed by fear of non-white/non-Christians. FDR’s speech > [@](#): > > So, first of all, let me assert my firm belief that the only thing we have to fear is fear itself—nameless, unreasoning, unjustified terror which paralyzes needed efforts to convert retreat into advance. Was partly directed at Herbert Hoover protectionism. I do hope that we once again find a way to convert retreat into advance. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2018, 7:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-political-dichotomy-globalism-vs-patriotism/821961/53 "2018-09-27T07:58:11Z")
> [@survinga](#): > > I guess I reject the idea that globalism and patriotism are mutually exclusive, or at least Trump’s vision of what those words mean. > > One can be in favor of having multi-lateral trade agreements, cooperating with our military & economic allies, allowing immigrants into the nation, and still be patriotic. Not everything that’s multi-national is bad or wrong or unpatriotic. And rejecting treaties, rejecting alliances, rejecting immigration doesn’t make one a patriot. +whichever number applies. Patriotism and patrioterism\* are two different things. Woody Guthrie was a patriot; those who call him a traitor are patrioterist. They grab the trappings of the Motherland without actually giving a shit about it or about what really makes up a Country: its people. - Word directly adapted from Spanish, if you know a better one please let me know but my back is killing me and apparently that affects my brain. ---
**Author:** ![Jim\_Peebles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Jim\_Peebles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jim_Peebles)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2018, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-political-dichotomy-globalism-vs-patriotism/821961/54 "2018-09-27T13:06:17Z")
For everyone asking for a definition of Globalism, read Trump’s speech. Defining globalism, anti-globalism, consvervatism, liberalism, etc. is a difficult exercise, especially for someone like me who thinks these dichotomies are false. It’s not a switch with two positions: it is a dial. Trump gives numerous examples where he has adjusted the dials towards anti-globalism, like a seasoned jumbo jet pilot. And all these objections that Trump and his supporters are bigoted falls on deaf ears for me. I don’t see evidence of it, I don’t believe it, and I think the mainstream media is hyping that angle because they can’t win on the real issues. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2018, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-political-dichotomy-globalism-vs-patriotism/821961/55 "2018-09-27T13:17:49Z")
> [@Jim\_Peebles](#): > > …Trump gives numerous examples where he has adjusted the dials towards anti-globalism, like a seasoned jumbo jet pilot… wut ---
**Author:** ![Akaj](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/akaj/32/145_2.png) [@Akaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Akaj)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2018, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-political-dichotomy-globalism-vs-patriotism/821961/56 "2018-09-27T13:26:30Z")
> [@Jim\_Peebles](#): > > And all these objections that Trump and his supporters are bigoted falls on deaf ears for me. I don’t see evidence of it, I don’t believe it, and I think the mainstream media is hyping that angle because they can’t win on the real issues. The mainstream media made him say “shithole countries” and call white supremacists “very fine people”? Good lord you’re dense. ---
**Author:** ![JB99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/439d5e/32.png) [@JB99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JB99)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2018, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-political-dichotomy-globalism-vs-patriotism/821961/57 "2018-09-27T13:33:32Z")
> [@Jim\_Peebles](#): > > For everyone asking for a definition of Globalism, read Trump’s speech. Defining globalism, anti-globalism, consvervatism, liberalism, etc. is a difficult exercise, especially for someone like me who thinks these dichotomies are false. It’s not a switch with two positions: it is a dial. Trump gives numerous examples where he has adjusted the dials towards anti-globalism, like a seasoned jumbo jet pilot. And all these objections that Trump and his supporters are bigoted falls on deaf ears for me. I don’t see evidence of it, I don’t believe it, and I think the mainstream media is hyping that angle because they can’t win on the real issues. Just off the top of my head: “He doesn’t have a birth certificate, or if he does, there’s something on that certificate that is very bad for him. Now, somebody told me – and I have no idea if this is bad for him or not, but perhaps it would be – that where it says ‘religion,’ it might have ‘Muslim.’ And if you’re a Muslim, you don’t change your religion, by the way." - March 30, 2011 “I have people that have been studying [Obama’s birth certificate] and they cannot believe what they’re finding … I would like to have him show his birth certificate, and can I be honest with you, I hope he can. Because if he can’t, if he can’t, if he wasn’t born in this country, which is a real possibility … then he has pulled one of the great cons in the history of politics.” - April 7, 2011 “When Mexico sends its people, they’re not sending their best. They’re not sending you. They’re not sending you. They’re sending people that have lots of problems, and they’re bringing those problems with us. They’re bringing drugs. They’re bringing crime. They’re rapists. And some, I assume, are good people.” - June 16, 2015 “These aren’t people. These are animals.” - May 16, 2018 “Mayor Koch has stated that hate and rancor should be removed from our hearts. I do not think so. I want to hate these muggers and murderers. They should be forced to suffer … Yes, Mayor Koch, I want to hate these murderers and I always will. … How can our great society tolerate the continued brutalization of its citizens by crazed misfits? Criminals must be told that their CIVIL LIBERTIES END WHEN AN ATTACK ON OUR SAFETY BEGINS!" - May 1, 1989 (The accused were proven to be factually innocent) “Donald J. Trump is calling for a total and complete shutdown of Muslims entering the United States until our country’s representatives can figure out what the hell is going on.” - December 7, 2015 “I think Islam hates us … We can’t allow people coming into this country who have this hatred of the United States and of people that are not Muslim.” - March 9, 2016 Bigot, bigot, bigot, bigot, bigot. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2018, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-political-dichotomy-globalism-vs-patriotism/821961/58 "2018-09-27T14:53:33Z")
> [@Jim\_Peebles](#): > > … Trump gives numerous examples where he has adjusted the dials towards anti-globalism, like a seasoned jumbo jet pilot… Wow! “_ **Seasoned jumbo jet pilot** _”! I guess we don’t have to guess what club has your fanboi allegiance. > [@andros](#): > > wut ++ … I think. ---
**Author:** ![Jim\_Peebles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Jim\_Peebles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jim_Peebles)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2018, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-political-dichotomy-globalism-vs-patriotism/821961/59 "2018-09-27T15:08:01Z")
> [@JB99](#): > > Just off the top of my head: > > “He doesn’t have a birth certificate, or if he does, there’s something on that certificate that is very bad for him. Now, somebody told me – and I have no idea if this is bad for him or not, but perhaps it would be – that where it says ‘religion,’ it might have ‘Muslim.’ And if you’re a Muslim, you don’t change your religion, by the way." > > - March 30, 2011 > > “I have people that have been studying [Obama’s birth certificate] and they cannot believe what they’re finding … I would like to have him show his birth certificate, and can I be honest with you, I hope he can. Because if he can’t, if he can’t, if he wasn’t born in this country, which is a real possibility … then he has pulled one of the great cons in the history of politics.” > > - April 7, 2011 > > “When Mexico sends its people, they’re not sending their best. They’re not sending you. They’re not sending you. They’re sending people that have lots of problems, and they’re bringing those problems with us. They’re bringing drugs. They’re bringing crime. They’re rapists. And some, I assume, are good people.” > > - June 16, 2015 > > “These aren’t people. These are animals.” > > - May 16, 2018 > > “Mayor Koch has stated that hate and rancor should be removed from our hearts. I do not think so. I want to hate these muggers and murderers. They should be forced to suffer … Yes, Mayor Koch, I want to hate these murderers and I always will. … How can our great society tolerate the continued brutalization of its citizens by crazed misfits? Criminals must be told that their CIVIL LIBERTIES END WHEN AN ATTACK ON OUR SAFETY BEGINS!" > > - May 1, 1989 (The accused were proven to be factually innocent) > > “Donald J. Trump is calling for a total and complete shutdown of Muslims entering the United States until our country’s representatives can figure out what the hell is going on.” > > - December 7, 2015 > > “I think Islam hates us … We can’t allow people coming into this country who have this hatred of the United States and of people that are not Muslim.” > > - March 9, 2016 > > Bigot, bigot, bigot, bigot, bigot. None of the above has anything to do with race. And the “animals” quote looks like it is from when he was talking about criminal gang members. ---
**Author:** ![JB99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/439d5e/32.png) [@JB99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JB99)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2018, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-political-dichotomy-globalism-vs-patriotism/821961/60 "2018-09-27T15:12:02Z")
> [@Jim\_Peebles](#): > > None of the above has anything to do with race. And the “animals” quote looks like it is from when he was talking about criminal gang members. These are words that came out of Trump’s own mouth, and EVERY SINGLE ONE reflects his racial and religious hatreds. If you can’t even read and acknowledge basic facts which - again - came out of Trump’s own mouth, then we have nothing left to talk about. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-political-dichotomy-globalism-vs-patriotism/821961.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-political-dichotomy-globalism-vs-patriotism/821961.md?page=4)