# The new political dichotomy? Globalism vs Patriotism **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 26, 2018, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-political-dichotomy-globalism-vs-patriotism/821961 "2018-09-26T18:28:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![tullsterx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e9bcb4/32.png) [@tullsterx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tullsterx)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2018, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-political-dichotomy-globalism-vs-patriotism/821961/61 "2018-09-27T15:25:13Z")
> [@Jim\_Peebles](#): > > None of the above has anything to do with race. And the “animals” quote looks like it is from when he was talking about criminal gang members. Nailed it! Thanks. It’s good to see another rational person on here. The weird part is, I think that all of the lies told about Trump’s statements has actually been a big boost to his success as a politician. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2018, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-political-dichotomy-globalism-vs-patriotism/821961/62 "2018-09-27T15:31:01Z")
Willful blindness is pretty sad. ---
**Author:** ![Akaj](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/akaj/32/145_2.png) [@Akaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Akaj)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2018, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-political-dichotomy-globalism-vs-patriotism/821961/63 "2018-09-27T15:49:39Z")
> [@tullsterx](#): > > Nailed it! Thanks. It’s good to see another rational person on here. > > The weird part is, I think that all of the lies told about Trump’s statements has actually been a big boost to his success as a politician. I think that Trump supporters has been so stupid their unable to tell success with upcoming disaster. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2018, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-political-dichotomy-globalism-vs-patriotism/821961/64 "2018-09-27T15:58:55Z")
> [@Akaj](#): > > The mainstream media made him say “shithole countries” and call white supremacists “very fine people”? Good lord you’re dense. You are relatively new so please accept this guidance. Please familiarize yourself with the rules of the forum. Personal insults are not allowed. Calling someone dense in this fashion would typically merit sanction. Don’t do this again. > [@Akaj](#): > > I think that Trump supporters has been so stupid their unable to tell success with upcoming disaster. Typically we allow the type of generalized group insult depending on context. Given the context of this discussion, it’s difficult to separate the general from the specific posters. This type of thing doesn’t further discussion in any way. Dial it back. [/moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Akaj](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/akaj/32/145_2.png) [@Akaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Akaj)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2018, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-political-dichotomy-globalism-vs-patriotism/821961/65 "2018-09-27T16:13:22Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > You are relatively new so please accept this guidance. Please familiarize yourself with the rules of the forum. Personal insults are not allowed. Calling someone dense in this fashion would typically merit sanction. Don’t do this again. > Typically we allow the type of generalized group insult depending on context. Given the context of this discussion, it’s difficult to separate the general from the specific posters. This type of thing doesn’t further discussion in any way. Dial it back. > > [/moderating] Sorry. I was facepalming so hard it affected my judgement. Won’t happen again. ---
**Author:** ![BeepKillBeep](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9e8a1a/32.png) [@BeepKillBeep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeepKillBeep)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2018, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-political-dichotomy-globalism-vs-patriotism/821961/66 "2018-09-27T16:43:50Z")
There is a part of me that hopes the USA goes full bore into accepting anti-globalism. That way the rest of the move world can move on, while the USA declines in international importance. To some degree, I think that would be a good thing for the world, and maybe for the USA too. The only problem is I’m not comfortable with the powers that would rise. A dominant Germany would be ok. A dominant China, not so much. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2018, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-political-dichotomy-globalism-vs-patriotism/821961/67 "2018-09-27T16:55:16Z")
> [@Jim\_Peebles](#): > > Defining globalism, anti-globalism, consvervatism, liberalism, etc. is a difficult exercise, especially for someone like me who thinks these dichotomies are false. :dubious: You might have an easier time getting that point across if you hadn’t chosen to title your thread “The new political dichotomy? Globalism vs Patriotism”. ---
**Author:** ![E-DUB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/e-dub/32/403_2.png) [@E-DUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-DUB)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2018, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-political-dichotomy-globalism-vs-patriotism/821961/68 "2018-09-27T16:55:44Z")
> [@BeepKillBeep](#): > > There is a part of me that hopes the USA goes full bore into accepting anti-globalism. That way the rest of the move world can move on, while the USA declines in international importance. To some degree, I think that would be a good thing for the world, and maybe for the USA too. The only problem is I’m not comfortable with the powers that would rise. A dominant Germany would be ok. A dominant China, not so much. The world waits to see if trump is a trend or an aberration. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2018, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-political-dichotomy-globalism-vs-patriotism/821961/69 "2018-09-27T16:59:37Z")
> **[The Road to Unfreedom: Russia, Europe, America: Snyder, Timothy: 9780525574460:...](https://www.amazon.com/Road-Unfreedom-Russia-Europe-America/dp/0525574468)** > > The Road to Unfreedom: Russia, Europe, America \[Snyder, Timothy\] on Amazon.com. \*FREE\* shipping on qualifying offers. The Road to Unfreedom: Russia, Europe, America I just finished this book. Democracy is in doubt and under threat by many actors, who are finding each other on the internet, and manipulatiing each other by social media. Full bore anti globalism would be a disaster for democracy, and it would be a domino effect. Everyone would be affected and freedoms would be curtailed. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2018, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-political-dichotomy-globalism-vs-patriotism/821961/70 "2018-09-27T17:05:31Z")
> [@Jim\_Peebles](#): > > None of the above has anything to do with race. In the first place, “bigotry” doesn’t refer only to racial bigotry. Trump has made his anti-Muslim religious bigotry very clear in the quoted remarks. In the second place, Trump has also often exhibited specifically racist forms of bigotry, including discrimination against black applicants for rentals in his real estate business, describing would-be immigrants from Nigeria as living in “huts”, calling a Hispanic pageant contestant “Miss Housekeeping”, and so forth. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2018, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-political-dichotomy-globalism-vs-patriotism/821961/71 "2018-09-27T17:37:21Z")
Of _course_ globalism is the opposite of patriotism. Globalism is the first scoundrel.of a refuge! ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2018, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-political-dichotomy-globalism-vs-patriotism/821961/72 "2018-09-27T17:37:23Z")
> [@Jim\_Peebles](#): > > For everyone asking for a definition of Globalism, read Trump’s speech. Defining globalism, anti-globalism, consvervatism, liberalism, etc. is a difficult exercise, especially for someone like me who thinks these dichotomies are false. It’s not a switch with two positions: it is a dial. Trump gives numerous examples where he has adjusted the dials towards anti-globalism, like a seasoned jumbo jet pilot. And all these objections that Trump and his supporters are bigoted falls on deaf ears for me. I don’t see evidence of it, I don’t believe it, and I think the mainstream media is hyping that angle because they can’t win on the real issues. I am absolutely confident that when Trump refers to ‘globalism’ he’s talking about the Jewish deep state conspiracy theory. Your failure to see this doesn’t impress me or change my mind. Your failure to respond to the cite I gave you explaining the history of the term also doesn’t impress me or change my mind. If you want me to use some non-racist definition of the term “globalism”, provide one. If you want me to use Trump’s definition, I’ll use term’s actual definition - the racist dogwhistle one. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2018, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-political-dichotomy-globalism-vs-patriotism/821961/73 "2018-09-27T18:11:27Z")
> [@Jim\_Peebles](#): > > For everyone asking for a definition of Globalism, read Trump’s speech. Defining globalism, anti-globalism, consvervatism, liberalism, etc. is a difficult exercise, especially for someone like me who thinks these dichotomies are false. It’s not a switch with two positions: it is a dial. Trump gives numerous examples where he has adjusted the dials towards anti-globalism, like a seasoned jumbo jet pilot. And all these objections that Trump and his supporters are bigoted falls on deaf ears for me. I don’t see evidence of it, I don’t believe it, and I think the mainstream media is hyping that angle because they can’t win on the real issues. If you aren’t able or willing to clarify terms, it’s hard to see how there can be an actual debate. Please try to reframe the debate or clarify. [/moderating] ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2018, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-political-dichotomy-globalism-vs-patriotism/821961/74 "2018-09-27T18:12:12Z")
What the enemy is is far less important than having an enemy here are a few quotes from Eric Hoffer’s book _The True Believer: Thoughts on the Nature of Mass Movements_ “Hatred is the most accessible and comprehensive of all the unifying agents. Mass movements can rise and spread without belief in a god, but never without a belief in a devil.” “The quality of ideas seems to play a minor role in mass movement leadership. What counts is the arrogant gesture, the complete disregard of the opinion of others, the singlehanded defiance of the world.” “The enemy—the indispensible devil of every mass movement—is omnipresent. He plots both outside and inside the ranks of the faithful. It is his voice that speaks through the mouth of the dissenter, and the deviationists are his stooges. If anything goes wrong within the movement, it is his doing. It is the sacred duty of the true believer to be suspicious. He must be constantly on the lookout for saboteurs, spies and traitors.” Trumps statement: > [@](#): > > “We reject the ideology of globalism and accept the ideology of patriotism.” Is related to positioning himself to single-handedly be in defiance of the world with the promise of returning to a mythical earlier golden era that never existed. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2018, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-political-dichotomy-globalism-vs-patriotism/821961/75 "2018-09-27T18:51:26Z")
> [@Jim\_Peebles](#): > > For everyone asking for a definition of Globalism, read Trump’s speech. Defining globalism, anti-globalism, consvervatism, liberalism, etc. is a difficult exercise, especially for someone like me who thinks these dichotomies are false. It’s not a switch with two positions: it is a dial. Trump gives numerous examples where he has adjusted the dials towards anti-globalism, like a seasoned jumbo jet pilot. And all these objections that Trump and his supporters are bigoted falls on deaf ears for me. I don’t see evidence of it, I don’t believe it, and I think the mainstream media is hyping that angle because they can’t win on the real issues. No dude, this is weak. YOU posed the debate, you say what it means. No one is going to plow through Trump’s meandering incoherent speech to try to figure out what **Jim Peebles** thinks globalism is. It’s very poor form to expect them to. You’re talking about it so surely you must have some idea what it means. Why can’t you give a two or three sentence description. You get upset when people say anti-Globalism is just anti-Semitism in code words, but how can you blame them for using that definition when you fail to provide them an alternative. And yes, I realize this post will either be ignored or evaded, but I thought I’d give it one final go. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2018, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-political-dichotomy-globalism-vs-patriotism/821961/76 "2018-09-27T22:50:32Z")
…our Prime Minister, Jacinda Ardern, gave a speech today at the UN as well. And it addressed the issue of globalism, so I think some of what she said is relevant to this thread. > [@](#): > > However, Ardern said the country’s isolation had not made it insular, with engagement with the rest of the world shaping its identity: she spoke of growing up in the 1980s, when apartheid in South Africa and nuclear testing in the Pacific became touchstone events for Kiwis. > > “I am an incredibly proud New Zealander, but much of that pride has come from being a strong and active member of our international community, not in spite of it.” > > She said the UN had been at the heart of that international community, establishing a set of international norms and human rights which former New Zealand prime minister Peter Fraser said offered the chance for “a peace that would be real, lasting and worthy of human dignity”. > > Those principles, and the need for collective action, were more relevant than ever given the global nature of the challenges facing the world today, she said. > [@](#): > > Ardern also called for countries to “rebuild and recommit to multinationalism”, saying the international institutions many had committed to were not perfect and could be improved. > > Globalisation had been positive for many, but others had suffered from “jarring” transitions to economies which came with harsh consequences and “a growing sense of isolation, dislocation, and a sense of insecurity and the erosion of hope”. > [@](#): > > “We can use the environment to blame nameless, faceless ‘other’, to feed the sense of insecurity, to retreat into greater levels of isolationism. Or we can acknowledge the problems we have and seek to fix them.” > **[Ardern to UN: We must rebuild multilateralism](https://newsroom.co.nz/2018/09/27/ardern-to-un-we-must-rebuild-multilateralism/)** > > In her General Assembly debut, PM tells nations to "step back from the chaos" and focus on kindness. I’m very proud of my Prime Minister for making this speech, and very proud that she is standing up and sticking up for principals that I hold dear, and I’m very proud of my country right now as well. I grew up in the 80’s as well. The protests against apartheid, the fight against nuclear testing in the Pacific: those were touchstone moments for me as well, they helped shape the way I am today. We’ve always punched above our weight. Its never been more important to hear these words being spoken right now. So I guess that makes me patriotic. And if “globalism” means not blaming nameless faceless “others” and not feeding into insecurity, and if “globalism” means not retreating into greater levels of isolationism, and if “globalism” means that we don’t forget that the process may have harsh consequences for some people and that we need to both acknowledge those consequences and seek to fix them, then I’ll cast a vote for this version of globalism as well. Huh. I suppose that makes me a patriotic globalist. Is that okay with the OP? ---
**Author:** ![Akaj](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/akaj/32/145_2.png) [@Akaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Akaj)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2018, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-political-dichotomy-globalism-vs-patriotism/821961/77 "2018-09-27T23:01:57Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …our Prime Minister, Jacinda Ardern, gave a speech today at the UN as well. And it addressed the issue of globalism, so I think some of what she said is relevant to this thread. > > [https://www.newsroom.co.nz/2018/09/27/255845/ardern-to-un-we-must-rebuild-multilateralism](https://www.newsroom.co.nz/2018/09/27/255845/ardern-to-un-we-must-rebuild-multilateralism) > > I’m very proud of my Prime Minister for making this speech, and very proud that she is standing up and sticking up for principals that I hold dear, and I’m very proud of my country right now as well. I grew up in the 80’s as well. The protests against apartheid, the fight against nuclear testing in the Pacific: those were touchstone moments for me as well, they helped shape the way I am today. We’ve always punched above our weight. Its never been more important to hear these words being spoken right now. > > So I guess that makes me patriotic. > > And if “globalism” means not blaming nameless faceless “others” and not feeding into insecurity, and if “globalism” means not retreating into greater levels of isolationism, and if “globalism” means that we don’t forget that the process may have harsh consequences for some people and that we need to both acknowledge those consequences and seek to fix them, then I’ll cast a vote for this version of globalism as well. > > Huh. I suppose that makes me a patriotic globalist. > > Is that okay with the OP? What’s the Kiwi equivalent of “grand slam?” Because you just hit one. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2018, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-political-dichotomy-globalism-vs-patriotism/821961/78 "2018-09-27T23:19:10Z")
> [@Akaj](#): > > What’s the Kiwi equivalent of “grand slam?” …the closest equivalent may well be “Tu Meke.” Used in a sentence it would be “Tu Meke bro.” ---
**Author:** ![Jim\_Peebles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Jim\_Peebles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jim_Peebles)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2018, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-political-dichotomy-globalism-vs-patriotism/821961/79 "2018-09-28T00:50:46Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > I am absolutely confident that when Trump refers to ‘globalism’ he’s talking about the Jewish deep state conspiracy theory. Your failure to see this doesn’t impress me or change my mind. Your failure to respond to the cite I gave you explaining the history of the term also doesn’t impress me or change my mind. > > If you want me to use some non-racist definition of the term “globalism”, provide one. If you want me to use Trump’s definition, I’ll use term’s actual definition - the racist dogwhistle one. Just yesterday, Netanyahu said to Trump: “No one has backed Israel like you do, and we appreciate it.” > **[Netanyahu to Trump: 'No One Has Backed Israel Like You Do' | United with Israel](https://unitedwithisrael.org/netanyahu-to-trump-no-one-has-backed-israel-like-you-do/)** > > 'No one has backed Israel like you do, and we appreciate it,' Netanyahu told Trump. Check. Mate. ---
**Author:** ![Jim\_Peebles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Jim\_Peebles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jim_Peebles)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2018, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-political-dichotomy-globalism-vs-patriotism/821961/80 "2018-09-28T00:54:27Z")
> [@Larry\_Borgia](#): > > No dude, this is weak. YOU posed the debate, you say what it means. No one is going to plow through Trump’s meandering incoherent speech to try to figure out what **Jim Peebles** thinks globalism is. It’s very poor form to expect them to. You’re talking about it so surely you must have some idea what it means. Why can’t you give a two or three sentence description. > > You get upset when people say anti-Globalism is just anti-Semitism in code words, but how can you blame them for using that definition when you fail to provide them an alternative. > > And yes, I realize this post will either be ignored or evaded, but I thought I’d give it one final go. No, it is all about Trump’s proposed dichotomy. I have already objected to his word choice, and the falseness of dichotomies. See my last post dispelling the anti-semitism nonsense as well: Trump is clearly not anti-semetic. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-political-dichotomy-globalism-vs-patriotism/821961.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-political-dichotomy-globalism-vs-patriotism/821961.md?page=5)