# The New Republic taken in again? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 22, 2007, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-republic-taken-in-again/416553 "2007-08-22T20:42:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2007, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-republic-taken-in-again/416553/41 "2007-08-23T17:26:52Z")
[QUOTE=treis] You said that it’s not too much of an inferential jump to think that GD would include a thread about a conservative magazine fabricating a story. I’m asking you if there is one. [/QUOTE] If there is a thread in GD about a conservative magazine fabricating a story? Or is there a conservative magazine that’s fabricated a story? I’m not aware of either a thread about such an event, or such an event. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2007, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-republic-taken-in-again/416553/42 "2007-08-23T17:31:21Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] Did they? Well, that’s certainly reassuring! Knee-jerk reflexive that I am, I pretty much assumed they did it to shut him up. [/QUOTE] And why not? Where do his loyalties belong - to _The New Republic_ or to the United States Army? And I challenge you to explain to me how he can faithfully execute his responsibilities to both of his employers, each of whom have rather different expectations of him. I’m reminded sometimes of Ernie Pyle, the quintessential battlefield correspondent. His reporting was instrumental in getting soldiers combat pay. He carried dogtags, ate rations, wore olive drab, slept in the cold, and was killed alongside Marines on Iejema. Few men have understood soldiers as well as he - including most soldiers. But his uniform carried no insignia. Pyle was a civilian working for Scripps Howard. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2007, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-republic-taken-in-again/416553/43 "2007-08-23T17:36:00Z")
[QUOTE=Bricker] If there is a thread in GD about a conservative magazine fabricating a story? Or is there a conservative magazine that’s fabricated a story? I’m not aware of either a thread about such an event, or such an event. [/QUOTE] If there were an incident involving conservatives fabricating news and no GD thread would that disprove your little theory? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2007, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-republic-taken-in-again/416553/44 "2007-08-23T17:41:01Z")
**Moto** His loyalties, as soldier and citizen, are properly assigned to us. Which, in my estimation, includes telling us unpleasant truths. YMMV. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2007, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-republic-taken-in-again/416553/45 "2007-08-23T17:45:18Z")
[QUOTE=Bricker] If there is a thread in GD about a conservative magazine fabricating a story? Or is there a conservative magazine that’s fabricated a story? I’m not aware of either a thread about such an event, or such an event. [/QUOTE] Well, I don’t know how to search for thread titles with words that only contain 4 letters or less, otherwise I’d do a search for “Fox” and “News”, and I think I’d probably find something. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2007, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-republic-taken-in-again/416553/46 "2007-08-23T18:13:06Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] Well, I don’t know how to search for thread titles with words that only contain 4 letters or less, otherwise I’d do a search for “Fox” and “News”, and I think I’d probably find something. [/QUOTE] You **can** search for words with 4 or more letters (v. ‘more than 4’) but I’ve found that it’ll reject searches for some short words because they’re too common. I don’t know if ‘news’ falls into that category. (Obviously, ‘Fox’ is out, period.) ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2007, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-republic-taken-in-again/416553/47 "2007-08-23T18:40:20Z")
In response to the OP’s query about why this hadn’t been brought up sooner, I actually considered it. I caught wind of the story, and made a tour of tighty-righty sites to note with calm disdain how they worked themselves into a frenzy over it. It was over almost as quickly as it began: when discordant facts emerged, they simply said “Case closed!” and that was that. And the news is…what? That war brutalizes its participants as surely as it exterminates its victims? This hasn’t been news since 500 B.C.E. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2007, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-republic-taken-in-again/416553/48 "2007-08-23T19:17:45Z")
So what’s the deal? This is an unpleasant truth, but not news? If it wasn’t news, why couldn’t it have waited until discharge? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2007, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-republic-taken-in-again/416553/49 "2007-08-23T19:35:19Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] In response to the OP’s query about why this hadn’t been brought up sooner, I actually considered it. I caught wind of the story, and made a tour of tighty-righty sites to note with calm disdain how they worked themselves into a frenzy over it. It was over almost as quickly as it began: when discordant facts emerged, they simply said “Case closed!” and that was that. And the news is…what? That war brutalizes its participants as surely as it exterminates its victims? This hasn’t been news since 500 B.C.E. [/QUOTE] Yeah, you might say: War is hell. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2007, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-republic-taken-in-again/416553/50 "2007-08-23T19:49:32Z")
[QUOTE=treis] If there were an incident involving conservatives fabricating news and no GD thread would that disprove your little theory? [/QUOTE] Well, I think we need a bit more detail. The New Republic is a magazine of some reputation. I would say that if there were a conservative source of similar gravitas fabricating news and no thread at all commenting upon it, it would certainly hurt my theory. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2007, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-republic-taken-in-again/416553/51 "2007-08-23T19:52:03Z")
[QUOTE=Mr. Moto] So what’s the deal? This is an unpleasant truth, but not news? If it wasn’t news, why couldn’t it have waited until discharge? [/QUOTE] Either it’s so well established it isn’t newsworthy, or it’s so completely unbelievable that it must be a fabrication put over on The New Republic. Which is it? As for me, I suspect that a reminder about the dehumanizing aspects of war would serve pretty well to contrast the steely-eyed rock-steady glorious mythos we infuse our caricatures of our soldiers. We might do well to remember that supporting the troops means more than putting a yellow bumper magnet on our cars and voting for the Republicans. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2007, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-republic-taken-in-again/416553/52 "2007-08-23T20:11:57Z")
[QUOTE=Hentor the Barbarian] We might do well to remember that supporting the troops means more than putting a yellow bumper magnet on our cars and voting for the Republicans. [/QUOTE] I think that is important for all of us to remember, and I do hope your support extends further than posts on a message board. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2007, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-republic-taken-in-again/416553/53 "2007-08-23T21:10:33Z")
[QUOTE=Mr. Moto] So what’s the deal? This is an unpleasant truth, but not news? If it wasn’t news, why couldn’t it have waited until discharge? [/QUOTE] It’s an unpleasant truth - and obviously sufficiently unpalatable that the wingnuts went apeshit over Beauchamp’s accounts. That in itself indicates that it’s news, don’t you think? Let’s put it this way: a lot of things that are ‘news’ are only news to those who haven’t been paying attention. That war is an ugly, brutal, dehumanizing business, rather than a glorious, heroic _dulce et decorum est_ adventure, is something that has to be re-learned each generation. Especially in an era of high-tech war with laser-guided bombs and whatnot. On preview, I see **Hentor** has said essentially the same thing already. But let me add that maybe such glimpses will help friends and relatives of returning soldiers to have a partial clue about why they’re a bit messed up in the head, as many of them are already, and more will be. And hopefully such glimpses will help the public be willing to support funding for the VA to treat this war’s inevitable head cases as Johnny comes marching home. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2007, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-republic-taken-in-again/416553/54 "2007-08-23T22:26:09Z")
As to the question of Board criticism achieving fairness and balance… Gotta pick the most egregious barrell of horseshit to come from Fox News, or WorldNet, or any of a number of professional nitwits? Its like judging a swimsuit competition at a leper colony… Personal favorite? I like being annoyed by Sean Hannity, so I caught this one live. Somebody found a cache of rusted out munitions somewhere in Iraq, and Sean went into shrieking wombat mode, demanding apologies from all the lefties/traitors who doubted the truthiness of the Leader, I mean, the guy was screeching foam-flecked like John Belushi’s old SNL sketch. Next day, you may recall, the major news outlets advised that it was all road apples. And that night the Giant Head went right ahead on as though nothing had happened. Not even a mention. Galactic _chutzpah_. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2007, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-republic-taken-in-again/416553/55 "2007-08-23T22:50:34Z")
[QUOTE=Mr. Moto] I think that is important for all of us to remember, and I do hope your support extends further than posts on a message board. [/QUOTE] Yes, and I hope your support extends beyond _opposing_ those posts on a message board and shamelessly, ceaselessly, unfailingly, unflinchingly supporting those responsible for putting them where they are right now. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2007, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-republic-taken-in-again/416553/56 "2007-08-23T22:59:16Z")
Okay, “factual” question here: has this writer been “debunked” or not? **Hentor** and **RT** are saying that a small, minor inconsistency has been exaggerated, and that’s it. The whole basis of the OP is that everything he’s said (or at the very least, his credibility) has been completely shattered on multiple points. Which is it? ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2007, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-republic-taken-in-again/416553/57 "2007-08-24T01:08:58Z")
[QUOTE=Leaper] Okay, “factual” question here: has this writer been “debunked” or not? **Hentor** and **RT** are saying that a small, minor inconsistency has been exaggerated, and that’s it. The whole basis of the OP is that everything he’s said (or at the very least, his credibility) has been completely shattered on multiple points. Which is it? [/QUOTE] I’d say that, as far as _this thread so far_ is concerned, you’ve correctly stated my position. I really haven’t been following the Beauchamp story all that closely, so AFAIK there might be damning evidence against him ‘out there’ somewhere. But since our OP, who’s not one of the duller tools in the shed by any means, hasn’t been able to produce any of it (ditto **Mr. Moto** , who’s had to fall back on simple “he shouldn’t have been playing reporter while soldiering” harping), my _strong suspicion_ is that there’s no debunking ‘out there’ to be found. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2007, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-republic-taken-in-again/416553/58 "2007-08-24T01:17:40Z")
[QUOTE=Shodan] Rather like Kerry waiting until he was safely back in the States before making his claim that he witnessed war crimes in Viet Nam on a daily basis. I grant you, he only spent a few months in Viet Nam, but if he really witnessed this, and wanted to make a difference for the better instead of self-aggrandization, he should have reported the alleged crimes to his superiors. Someone as supposedly brave as he claimed to be should not have been fearful of following the proper chain. [/quote] In the sense that that description of his claim is fabricated as well? [Link](http://www.richmond.edu/~ebolt/history398/JohnKerryTestimony.html) > [@](#): > > I would like to talk, representing all those veterans, and say that several months ago in Detroit, we had an investigation at which \*\*over 150 honorably discharged and many very highly decorated veterans testified to war crimes \*\* committed in Southeast Asia, not isolated incidents but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command… > > \*\*They told the stories \*\* at times they had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages in fashion reminiscent of Genghis Khan, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the countryside of South Vietnam in addition to the normal ravage of war, and the normal and very particular ravaging which is done by the applied bombing power of this country. Bolding added. Care to acknowledge you told a falsehood there? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2007, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-republic-taken-in-again/416553/59 "2007-08-24T04:17:09Z")
[QUOTE=RTFirefly] I really haven’t been following the Beauchamp story all that closely, so AFAIK there might be damning evidence against him ‘out there’ somewhere. But since our OP, who’s not one of the duller tools in the shed by any means, hasn’t been able to produce any of it (ditto **Mr. Moto** , who’s had to fall back on simple “he shouldn’t have been playing reporter while soldiering” harping), my _strong suspicion_ is that there’s no debunking ‘out there’ to be found. [/QUOTE] What is there to fall back on? This has been my position from the start. And I haven’t come to any conclusions about Beauchamp’s truthfulness, though I am leaning in one way. My position is that a reporter and a journalist hold very different jobs, and the requirements of each interfere with the duties of the other. This is pretty self-explanatory, yet nobody else here is talking about this fundamental problem - and the _Weekly Standard_ and _The New Republic_ are blowing it off as well. It is clear why _TNR_ is doing so, but the _Weekly Standard’s_ ducking of this issue is less transparent. And it has to do with the desire of some conservatives to play up the contribution of certain milbloggers and cause their journalistic contributions to have a Christiane Amanpour sized impact. Now, these guys can pose a major problem as well, unless they are embedded journalists from news organizations or with independent backing. Political ideology has less to do here than the incompatibilities I mentioned earlier. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2007, 11:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-republic-taken-in-again/416553/60 "2007-08-24T11:05:02Z")
[QUOTE=Mr. Moto] What is there to fall back on? This has been my position from the start. And I haven’t come to any conclusions about Beauchamp’s truthfulness, though I am leaning in one way. [/quote] Well, that’s kinda the main issue here: was “The New Republic taken in again?” Have I misstated your position - that your only criticism relates to this side issue, and that you have contributed nothing on the main question? That’s what **Leaper** asked for a status update on, and that’s what I’ve provided. > [@](#): > > My position is that a reporter and a journalist hold very different jobs, and the requirements of each interfere with the duties of the other. This is pretty self-explanatory, yet nobody else here is talking about this fundamental problem - and the _Weekly Standard_ and _The New Republic_ are blowing it off as well. > > It is clear why _TNR_ is doing so, but the _Weekly Standard’s_ ducking of this issue is less transparent. And it has to do with the desire of some conservatives to play up the contribution of certain milbloggers and cause their journalistic contributions to have a Christiane Amanpour sized impact. > > Now, these guys can pose a major problem as well, unless they are embedded journalists from news organizations or with independent backing. Political ideology has less to do here than the incompatibilities I mentioned earlier. This is all quite interesting. How exactly does a “journalist” differ from a “reporter”? 🙂 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-republic-taken-in-again/416553.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-republic-taken-in-again/416553.md?page=4)