# The New Republican Hypocrisy **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 24, 2005, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-republican-hypocrisy/327613 "2005-10-24T03:15:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2005, 7:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-republican-hypocrisy/327613/21 "2005-10-24T07:04:15Z")
**Xtisme** , the way I’m reading it the perjury itself isn’t what matters to the dems… the _subject_ of the perjury is. By the way, some folks in this thread are using [the charge of ‘treason’ incorrectly.](http://www.house.gov/Constitution/Constitution.html) > [@](#): > > Section. 3. > > Clause 1: Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court. And although hamstringing out intel agencies hurts us, it isn’t going to war against the Republic, nor is it giving aid and comfort to our enemies. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2005, 8:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-republican-hypocrisy/327613/22 "2005-10-24T08:03:16Z")
What “new” Republican hypocrisy? It’s the same Republican hypocrisy we’ve been getting for over a decade now – or did everyone conveniently overlooked at all the folks who were hounding Clinton during the Lewinsky mess while having affairs and dalliances of their own? Nowadays I just find it amusing how many of the Kool-Aid drinking Bush apologists can simultaneously shriek about how we must be resolute in preventing terrorists from acquiring WMDs while dismissing the outing of a CIA agent who was searching for WMDs as no big deal. Almost makes me want to erect a neon sign for the terminally clueless… ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2005, 11:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-republican-hypocrisy/327613/23 "2005-10-24T11:22:30Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Whats a poor independant to do…? The only thing you can do is be consistent. I don’t expect that from our politicians, all they do is play the game of politics. They say what they think will advance their position, regardless of whether or not it is consistent or if it accurately reflects their beliefs. Clinton did perjure himself in that deposition. The questions about Lewinsky were relevant since the deposition was for a civil suit charging sexual harassment. Harassment of a state employee by the governor. His actions with other employees while president sure seem relevant to me. FTR, I think that getting sexual favors is just about the worst abuse of individual authority an executive (of any type) can do to an employee. Here, if these people perjured themselves in this investigation, I will be more than happy to see their asses nailed to the wall. BTW, what did Hutchison mean when she said this: > [@](#): > > Well, there were charges against Bill Clinton besides perjury and obstruction of justice. What other charges, and how could they possibly compare to charges of treason? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2005, 11:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-republican-hypocrisy/327613/24 "2005-10-24T11:32:42Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > What other charges, and how could they possibly compare to charges of treason? This is _not_ treason. Come on, I made a post with a cite that’s just two above yours. To repeat: > [@](#): > > Treason against the United States, shall consist **only** in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. Rove did not levy war against the United States, nor give our enemies aid and comfort. It is certainly an action which harms our country, but it is not treason. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2005, 11:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-republican-hypocrisy/327613/25 "2005-10-24T11:39:08Z")
wouldn’t/couldn’t public identification of a covert agent be considered giving aid/aiding enemies? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2005, 11:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-republican-hypocrisy/327613/26 "2005-10-24T11:46:55Z")
Because there’s a world of difference between taking a short sighted action designed to punish a political rival and giving aid to our enemies, even if the result of that shorted sighted action does indeed end up giving our enemies an advantage. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2005, 11:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-republican-hypocrisy/327613/27 "2005-10-24T11:50:11Z")
Or, to put a finer point on it: Yes, perhaps in a rousing game of lawyerball there could be rationalizations for various charges, but it seems far more likely that Rove’s aim was not to give aid to our enemies. I think that the lessser charges will be much easier to make stick. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2005, 11:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-republican-hypocrisy/327613/28 "2005-10-24T11:59:04Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > What “new” Republican hypocrisy? It’s the same Republican hypocrisy we’ve been getting for over a decade now – or did everyone conveniently overlooked at all the folks who were hounding Clinton during the Lewinsky mess while having affairs and dalliances of their own? Absolutely right. I meant to convey “newest,” as in most current or most recent, and not “new,” as in any sort of novelty. My bad. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2005, 12:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-republican-hypocrisy/327613/29 "2005-10-24T12:05:21Z")
So this isn’t about Republican hypocricy, it’s about Kay Bailey’s hypocrisy. Kay Bailey != all Republicans. ---
**Author:** ![A.R.Cane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ee7513/32.png) [@A.R.Cane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A.R.Cane)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2005, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-republican-hypocrisy/327613/30 "2005-10-24T12:09:19Z")
> [@wring](#): > > wouldn’t/couldn’t public identification of a covert agent be > considered giving aid/aiding enemies? You beat me to the punch on that one. Early on, much was made of whether or not Ms. Plame was an active covert agent at the time of the alleged exposure. I maintain that, for practical purposes, it doesn’t matter. Outing a covert agent, past or present, exposes foreign persons, who may have had a previous relationship w/ her, to suspicion, scrutinization and possible jeopardy, even death. To do so for something as trivial as political retaliation is despicable. I understand that the statute against this has a high threshold and for that reason I think anyone who perjured themselves in this investigation should be prosecuted even if a case can’t be made for exposing an active covert agent. ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2005, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-republican-hypocrisy/327613/31 "2005-10-24T12:29:57Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > This is _not_ treason. Our President’s father, George H.W. Bush, former President and former Director of the Central Intelligence Agency, [disagrees](http://www.cia.gov/cia/public_affairs/speeches/1999/bush_speech_042699.html) with you. > [@George H.W. Bush](#): > > …I have nothing but contempt and anger for those who betray the trust by exposing the name of our sources. They are, in my view, the most insidious, of traitors. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2005, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-republican-hypocrisy/327613/32 "2005-10-24T12:36:40Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > it seems far more likely that Rove’s aim was not to give aid to our enemies. I don’t give a flying fuck what Rove’s aim was. If he outed a covert agent, and that outing assisted our enemies, he is a traitor. Outing a covert agent is just not something you do lightly, if ever. It’s insane to think that it could be a reasonable or justifiable act to gain political advantage. Shit, how many people died because our intelligence hasn’t been up to snuff, and our own leadership is tanking our agents? I’ve got a good 5,000 dead Americans because of bad intel and security, yeah, let’s just fuck up our own network some more by outing agents. ---
**Author:** ![Slacker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6bbea6/32.png) [@Slacker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slacker)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2005, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-republican-hypocrisy/327613/33 "2005-10-24T12:40:39Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Or, to put a finer point on it: > Yes, perhaps in a rousing game of lawyerball there could be rationalizations for various charges, but it seems far more likely that Rove’s aim was not to give aid to our enemies. I think that the lessser charges will be much easier to make stick. Who gives a rat’s ass what his aim was? I think it’s going to take a rousing game of lawyer-ball to make this _not_ look like treason, not the other way around. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2005, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-republican-hypocrisy/327613/34 "2005-10-24T12:44:19Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > BTW, what did Hutchison mean when she said this:What other charges, and how could they possibly compare to charges of treason? Besides the base charges of sexual harassment that led to the perjury, there was Whitewater, Travelgate, the murder of everyone who got too close to his cocaine cartel, and so on. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2005, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-republican-hypocrisy/327613/35 "2005-10-24T12:50:05Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > **Xtisme** , the way I’m reading it the perjury itself isn’t what matters to the dems… the _subject_ of the perjury is. > > By the way, some folks in this thread are using [the charge of ‘treason’ incorrectly.](http://www.house.gov/Constitution/Constitution.html) > > And although hamstringing out intel agencies hurts us, it isn’t going to war against the Republic, nor is it giving aid and comfort to our enemies. Yeah, because outing our covert agents in NO WAY could be construed as aiding our enemies. n :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2005, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-republican-hypocrisy/327613/36 "2005-10-24T13:06:39Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > I don’t give a flying fuck what Rove’s aim was. If he outed a covert agent, and that outing assisted our enemies, he is a traitor. A traitor, perhaps, in some non-legal sense. But still not guilty of treason. Or are you honestly going to suggest that anybody who commits an action, legal or illegal, which ends up through no conscious design being an advantage to our enemies… is guilty of treason? > [@Evil Captor](#): > > Yeah, because outing our covert agents in NO WAY could be construed as aiding our enemies. It can be construed however you want to, I suppose. Which specific enemies, however, were helped by Plame’s outing? > [@slacker](#): > > Who gives a rat’s ass what his aim was? Those who think that motive is essential in determining guilt? > [@slacker](#): > > I think it’s going to take a rousing game of lawyer-ball to make this not look like treason, not the other way around. I still see no proof, at all, that Rove was ‘adhering to our enemies’. ---
**Author:** ![plnnr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@plnnr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/plnnr)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2005, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-republican-hypocrisy/327613/37 "2005-10-24T13:14:23Z")
As was pointed out several times during the Lewinsky episode, “Whenever anyone says, ‘It isn’t about the sex,’ it’s about the sex.” Unfortunately for the Republicans, saying “It isn’t about the criminal act of outing a covert CIA operative, it’s about the perjury.” doesn’t have the same effect. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2005, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-republican-hypocrisy/327613/38 "2005-10-24T13:50:06Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > A traitor, perhaps, in some non-legal sense. But still not guilty of treason. In a court of law, _maybe_. In the court of public opinion, fuhgeddaboutit. > [@](#): > > Or are you honestly going to suggest that anybody who commits an action, legal or illegal, which ends up through no conscious design being an advantage to our enemies… is guilty of treason? Are you honestly going to suggest that Libby et al. (whoever, we’ll soon know) weren’t conscious of what they were doing, or why, or perhaps hadn’t thought out the consequences or legality of it? “Known _or should have known_” is the usual phrase, I believe. > [@](#): > > Which specific enemies, however, were helped by Plame’s outing? The ones who are emboldened by public protest of the war, perhaps. You know, the terr’ists. > [@](#): > > I still see no proof, at all, that Rove was ‘adhering to our enemies’. The most applicable term might be “aid and comfort”. We haven’t seen Fitzgerald’s indictments yet. Would you agree to withhold judgment for just a few days more? ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2005, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-republican-hypocrisy/327613/39 "2005-10-24T13:55:47Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > It can be construed however you want to, I suppose. > Which specific enemies, however, were helped by Plame’s outing? **You** try construing outing a covert CIA agent as something other than aiding our enemies. Good luck. I await your response with bated breath. Given that Plame’s CIA duties involved tracking down WMD’s, I would guess it would aid those of our enemies who are interested in obtaining WMDs. Nasty bunch, but would probably include Al Qaeda, for starters. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2005, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-republican-hypocrisy/327613/40 "2005-10-24T14:00:04Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > In a court of law, _maybe_. In the court of public opinion, fuhgeddaboutit. True enough. But you can’t execute a man for being convicted in a court of public opinion… and I do believe that treason can carry the death penalty. Am I wrong? > [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Are you honestly going to suggest that Libby et al. (whoever, we’ll soon know) weren’t conscious of what they were doing, or why, or perhaps hadn’t thought out the consequences or legality of it? “Known _or should have known_” is the usual phrase, I believe. I am reasonably certain that they knew they’d be ruining Plame’s career, and should’ve known that’d hurt CIA activity. No question in my mind about that. **But** I simply cannot make the leap from harming ourselves to aiding our enemies. There is, I believe, a substantive difference. And as I’m sure folks know, I am no friend of Bush or Lon Cheney. > [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > The ones who are emboldened by public protest of the war, perhaps. You know, the terr’ists. Seriously though… in my mind, in order to claim that he’s “adhered to” our enemies, you first have to show some connection between Rove and specific enemies. It’s not good enough to point out that we’re in a weakened global position. As I see it treason requires collusion between an American and a foreign power. > [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > The most applicable term might be “aid and comfort”. We haven’t seen Fitzgerald’s indictments yet. Would you agree to withhold judgment for just a few days more? Naw, but I’d be willing to change my judgement if different facts come along. Cognitive dissonance can be dealt with, after all. I still don’t see his actions as aid and comfort though, especially not taken in the context of “adhering to” an enemy. I mean, hell, I’m sure that even Bush’s **legal** actions have helped make recruiting for Al Queda much easier. But I don’t think the man is guilty of treason. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-republican-hypocrisy/327613.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-republican-hypocrisy/327613.md?page=3)