# The New Republican Hypocrisy **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 24, 2005, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-republican-hypocrisy/327613 "2005-10-24T03:15:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2005, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-republican-hypocrisy/327613/41 "2005-10-24T14:06:45Z")
> [@Evil Captor](#): > > **You** try construing outing a covert CIA agent as something other than aiding our enemies. Good luck. I await your response with bated breath. _Which_ enemies? In specific, which group did Rove “adhere to”? You can’t charge a man with treason and claim that he aided our enemies… in general. And the phrasing is quite specific, not just aid and give comfort but adhere to. For whatever his flaws, I simply do not believe that Rove was ‘adhering to’ a single one of our specific foes. > [@Evil Captor](#): > > Given that Plame’s CIA duties involved tracking down WMD’s, I would guess it would aid those of our enemies who are interested in obtaining WMDs. Nasty bunch, but would probably include Al Qaeda, for starters. Again, I have a problem with this backdoor approach. There is a difference between someone adhering to our enemy and purposefully giving them aid and comfort, and someone screwing over our own country. They have similar effects, but they are not the same event. If limiting our ability to find WMD is the issue, then Bush’s purge of the CIA on grounds of ‘loyalty’ also did that. But again I don’t think that Bush should be charged with treason. ---
**Author:** ![Hung\_Mung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a88e4f/32.png) [@Hung\_Mung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hung_Mung)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2005, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-republican-hypocrisy/327613/42 "2005-10-24T14:09:44Z")
Here’s Wikipedia’s list of Americans convicted or accused of treason. [Link](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_convicted_or_accused_traitors#United_States) I very much doubt that Rove will be (or should be) convicted of treason. Our list of traitors involves mostly those who sold secrets to the Soviets; in other words, they directly and explicitly aided an enemy of the U.S. One can point to a specific atomic technology that the Russians received or the revelation that we tapped their underseas communications lines. What is the specific result of Rove’s actions? His intention was to harm and discredit a political enemy here at home. That’s fair game. One CIA agent’s career is nothing to the people playing human chess at the top political tier. I doubt that it put a big damper on any CIA projects and it didn’t put an agent into immediate danger. More importantly, Rove didn’t explicitly aid an enemy. No one gained anything from him, he didn’t sell information to a Saudi or an Iranian, North Korea didn’t learn anything, etc. I think he broke the law by revealing Plame’s status as an agent but it wasn’t treason. Hell, according to that list I linked to, John Walker Lindh didn’t even get convicted of treason. You really think Rove’s going to go down? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2005, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-republican-hypocrisy/327613/43 "2005-10-24T14:19:38Z")
I agree that treason is unlikely to be the correct charge, but I also agree that perjury in this case will be more significant than perjury in the Clinton case. I don’t know if that’s a legal position, but from an ethical position, a lie that gets someone out of an embarrassing admission of sexual peccadilloes is nowhere near as bad as a lie that covers up ruining someone’s career and assisting in misleading the public about the reasons to go to war. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2005, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-republican-hypocrisy/327613/44 "2005-10-24T14:28:50Z")
Well, um, I agree with your agreement. Take that!!! ~shakes fist~ ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2005, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-republican-hypocrisy/327613/45 "2005-10-24T14:33:05Z")
While people may avoid a charge of treason, you cannot suggest that they outed an active agent and didn’t realize consciously that it would assist our enemies. This wasn’t just going about your business as usual and having one of your decisions backfire on you. This was a completely out of left field act that clearly would affect our intelligence community. From the Wikipedia link, there is also the case of Jonathan Pollard, who gave secrets to one of our allies (Israel) and got life in prison for it. He didn’t get “treason” but at this point, what’s the diff? So, perhaps not treason, but a crime nonetheless. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2005, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-republican-hypocrisy/327613/46 "2005-10-24T14:35:44Z")
Well, that’s an important distinction **Cheese**. Not treason, but yes, definitely a crime. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2005, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-republican-hypocrisy/327613/47 "2005-10-24T14:36:07Z")
It may not matter, again in the court of public opinion. Just as many Democrats had been afraid to oppose Bush’s war for fear of being called anti-American etc., Republicans who have supported what Rove has done (if not the man himself) may feel compelled to dump him to avoid appearing hypocritical, so soon after going after Clinton for something both legally and ethically far less significant. It can’t be comfortable either way. Can anyone describe the current spin of Hutchison’s statement, or has she “clarified” it yet? ---
**Author:** ![Hung\_Mung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a88e4f/32.png) [@Hung\_Mung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hung_Mung)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2005, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-republican-hypocrisy/327613/48 "2005-10-24T14:48:31Z")
Definitely a crime. I’m not trying to defend what Rove’s done. It wasn’t right. But I really think it hurt our ability to protect ourselves more than it helped an enemy find a weakness. I’m aware that a minus for our defense is a plus to those who would attack us, however it didn’t give anything tangible to anyone (as far as I know, I’m not an intelligence operative). Arrogant and unethical it was, but it’s not the same as selling secrets to a foreign power. ---
**Author:** ![Bob\_Loblaw\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4af34b/32.png) [@Bob\_Loblaw\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bob_Loblaw_1)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2005, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-republican-hypocrisy/327613/49 "2005-10-24T14:56:11Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > Clinton did perjure himself in that deposition. The questions about Lewinsky were relevant since the deposition was for a civil suit charging sexual harassment. Harassment of a state employee by the governor. No, he did not perjure himself in the deposition. If you think so, please cite page and line. He did not answer the questions in the deposition, and no motion to compel was ever made. It’s my recollection that he came closest to perjury in his signed declaration in the summary judgment motion, and when he wasn’t under oath and said: “I did not have sex with that woman.” ---
**Author:** ![Spiff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spiff/32/9852_2.png) [@Spiff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiff)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2005, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-republican-hypocrisy/327613/50 "2005-10-24T14:57:57Z")
Well, if we use Ann Coulter’s definition of treason… ---
**Author:** ![Bob\_Loblaw\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4af34b/32.png) [@Bob\_Loblaw\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bob_Loblaw_1)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2005, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-republican-hypocrisy/327613/51 "2005-10-24T15:02:41Z")
I’m surprised Hutchinson would bother going out on a limb. No charges have been made by the prosecutor yet. He might not make any, and he might not make a report. He might exonerate everyone. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2005, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-republican-hypocrisy/327613/52 "2005-10-24T15:07:50Z")
Maybe ol’ Hutch knows something we don’t know? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2005, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-republican-hypocrisy/327613/53 "2005-10-24T16:04:36Z")
**The New Republican Hypocrisy** Yet another misleading thread title. What’s “new” about it? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2005, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-republican-hypocrisy/327613/54 "2005-10-24T16:34:54Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > **The New Republican Hypocrisy** > > Yet another misleading thread title. What’s “new” about it? 🙂 Jeez, guys! One little mistake and you end up eating poop for the rest of the thread. I already tried to explain it away [once,](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=6717624&postcount=28) what more can I say? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2005, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-republican-hypocrisy/327613/55 "2005-10-24T16:57:31Z")
> [@Hentor the Barbarian](#): > > Jeez, guys! One little mistake and you end up eating poop for the rest of the thread. May I suggest altoids? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2005, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-republican-hypocrisy/327613/56 "2005-10-24T16:59:04Z")
To reply to the OP: I certainly believe that perjury is a serious crime, and it should warrant removal from office and criminal conviction. So, to the extent Senator Hutchinson is saying that we should ignore a “mere” perjury charge because there were more serious crimes under investigation, whether it relates to Mr. Delay or Mr. Rove’s conduct, I absolutely reject and repudiate that. If either Representative Delay or Mr. Rove is found to have perjured himself, I believe he should be the subject of criminal process. (Obviously, in this particular case, I don’t believe impeachment is appropriate). ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2005, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-republican-hypocrisy/327613/57 "2005-10-24T17:16:00Z")
Fitzgerald never interviewed the President, did he? That sorta precludes the possibility of impeachment for perjury, I guess. However, it does raise an interesting point. I believe Bush said early on that he believed nobody in his Administration was responsible for the leak. (I could be wrong on this point–I don’t remember what specifically he said, but I think it was something like this). If Fitzgerald were fishing for indictments, wouldn’t he have interviewed the president about this comment? Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2005, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-republican-hypocrisy/327613/58 "2005-10-24T17:23:54Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > Fitzgerald never interviewed the President, did he? That sorta precludes the possibility of impeachment for perjury, I guess. > > However, it does raise an interesting point. I believe Bush said early on that he believed nobody in his Administration was responsible for the leak. (I could be wrong on this point–I don’t remember what specifically he said, but I think it was something like this). If Fitzgerald were fishing for indictments, wouldn’t he have interviewed the president about this comment? > > Daniel I believe Fitzgerald has interviewed Bush, just not under oath. Don’t know what was asked. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2005, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-republican-hypocrisy/327613/59 "2005-10-24T17:34:59Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > If either Representative Delay or Mr. Rove is found to have perjured himself, I believe he should be the subject of criminal process. (Obviously, in this particular case, I don’t believe impeachment is appropriate). How would you feel about Delay being expelled from the House? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2005, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-republican-hypocrisy/327613/60 "2005-10-24T17:49:02Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > However, it does raise an interesting point. I believe Bush said early on that he believed nobody in his Administration was responsible for the leak. (I could be wrong on this point–I don’t remember what specifically he said, but I think it was something like this). If Fitzgerald were fishing for indictments, wouldn’t he have interviewed the president about this comment? Well, there’s also [this article going around](http://nydailynews.com/front/story/357107p-304312c.html). Which would seem to suggest that Bush knew, was angry with Rove, but still decided to support him out of crony loyalty. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-republican-hypocrisy/327613.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-republican-hypocrisy/327613.md?page=4)