# The new target is... hospice? Wha? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 30, 2009, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-target-is-hospice-wha/504730 "2009-07-30T00:59:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2009, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-target-is-hospice-wha/504730/81 "2009-08-01T01:04:23Z")
Where does the Invisible Hand keep its eyes? Do I want to know? ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2009, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-target-is-hospice-wha/504730/82 "2009-08-01T01:12:13Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > Where does the Invisible Hand keep its eyes? Do I want to know? The Invisible Hand needs not eyes to see! It sees merely by being Infallible!! (Similarly, the Invisible Hand needs not a penis to _fuck you in the ass_.\* It prefers fisting. Much more efficient, you know.) \*Unless you’re rich, then you get an Invisible Handjob. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2009, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-target-is-hospice-wha/504730/83 "2009-08-01T01:24:46Z")
Your ideas intrigue me, and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2009, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-target-is-hospice-wha/504730/84 "2009-08-01T01:25:35Z")
ETF finds it kinky to be fucked by an Invisible Hand. And hell, who wouldn’t? ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2009, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-target-is-hospice-wha/504730/85 "2009-08-01T01:27:55Z")
Well, actually, ETF was more 😕 followed by :eek: before settling on 😃 ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2009, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-target-is-hospice-wha/504730/86 "2009-08-02T00:33:25Z")
> [@EddyTeddyFreddy](#): > > Which of course is the REAL purpose of ObamaCare – to kill all the old people and tax all the rich and spread all their wealth to lazy illegal aliens! > > ETA: In other words, the hospice scare-mongering is designed to whip people into a fearful frenzy so that nothing is done to reform the health care system, leaving the insurance companies comfortably ensconced in their current profitable position. Track the donations going to politicians of both parties – 'tis quite illuminating. Yes, fear mongering is a very good name for it. I did volunteer work at a Hospice for several years. I never saw anyone forced in a Hospice program and you can stay at home in your own bed and still participate in Hospice. It is a way of helping those near death to live as comfortable as possible in the time they have left. Some actually get better and leave hospice. We are going to see fear-mongering at its best in the months to come. Rationed health care, long waiting lists for necessary surgery, bad doctors with poor training, etc, are just some of the tales of woe you will hear. Realize that the US is the only westernized country without a national health care system. The quality of our health care is 26th on the list. Cuba is 27th. Of course if you are rich you can buy the best while 46 million are uninsured. The insurance companies make big money in keeping it as it is. The people lose. Did you know many people are going to Canada or India for surgeries which they get for a fraction of the cost here. A friend of mine worked as a processing place for insurance. An American had a heart attack in Germany, spent three days in intensive care, and more recovering well enough to come home. He received a bill from the German hospital for 24 dollars and appology for the charge since he was not a German citizen. I email a person in England with cancer, he had operations, medicines, and his doctors even called him at his house to see how he was doing. The horror stories about national insurance are a bunch of bunk. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2009, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-target-is-hospice-wha/504730/87 "2009-08-02T01:53:38Z")
Again, nobody that I’m aware of is talking about the government “forcing” people into hospice as if they have no choice but to go into it. Certainly, terminally ill people can decline it if they want. What we’re speaking of is people being forced to turn to hospice to ease their deaths because the government has decided their lives aren’t worth the expense of saving. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2009, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-target-is-hospice-wha/504730/88 "2009-08-02T01:59:53Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > …The insurance companies make big money in keeping it as it is. The people lose… Usually. But sometimes the good guys win. The August recess is about finding out what’s happening back home. Our Congresscritters have already gotten their offers from Big Money, they know how many zeroes are on the checks for their campaign coffers. The next question is: will that money be enough to ensure their re-election if they stifle this health thing. If they encounter serious displeasure on the home front, Dems will rediscover their longstanding principles and refuse to be bullied by the running dog jackals of the ruling class, Pubbies will rediscover the sombre joy of bipartisanship, AKA, bending over and taking it. Something will come out of it, there’s just too much pressure. got to vent. And when people benefit from that, they will not be thanking the Republicans for their generous criticism. And there will be one fuck of a lot of them. White, black, hispanics, gays, lesbians, lawyers and people. The Damn Near Everybody demographic. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2009, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-target-is-hospice-wha/504730/89 "2009-08-02T03:16:16Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Again, nobody that I’m aware of is talking about the government “forcing” people into hospice as if they have no choice but to go into it. Well, Rep. Virginia Foxx (R-NC) , said just that [on the floor of Congress](http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/07/31/EDNO1926HB.DTL): > [@](#): > > Some in the party are also entering never-never land in their attacks on the Democrats’ health care proposals. Last week, for example, Rep. Virginia Foxx, R-N.C., claimed that the Republican approach to health care would be more pro-life because it “will not put seniors in a position of being put to death by their government.” > > Foxx’s ludicrous notion - taking off in the right-wing blogosphere - is that Section 1233 of the House health bill is an invitation to euthanasia. [![](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/hea-4VJZXRE/hqdefault.jpg "Rep. Foxx Says Health Care Reform Will Cause Seniors To Be "Put To Death By Their Government"") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hea-4VJZXRE) ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2009, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-target-is-hospice-wha/504730/90 "2009-08-02T03:39:45Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > Kindly suck my dick. > . . . > And **Tomn** , this is a case where I don’t care if I crossed the line. Well, I am gald that you are comfortable with it, becuase it definitely earned you the Warning to refrain from doing similarly in GD in the future. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2009, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-target-is-hospice-wha/504730/91 "2009-08-02T05:21:58Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Again, nobody that I’m aware of is talking about the government “forcing” people into hospice as if they have no choice but to go into it. Certainly, terminally ill people can decline it if they want. What we’re speaking of is people being forced to turn to hospice to ease their deaths because the government has decided their lives aren’t worth the expense of saving. Hospice care costs money, too. Define the “we” having this fantasy about the government deciding to kill people… ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2009, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-target-is-hospice-wha/504730/92 "2009-08-02T05:33:49Z")
> [@Bridget\_Burke](#): > > Hospice care costs money, too. Does it cost as much as a hip replacement? A bypass operation? Dialysis? Heart, brain or lung surgery? > [@Bridget\_Burke](#): > > Define the “we” having this fantasy about the government deciding to kill people… Please note that there is a distinction between fears that the government will opt to withhold lifesaving procedures as a cost saving measure and fears-- unexpressed by anyone that I know of – that the government has decided to “kill” people. It’s hard enough in this country to get the government to kill people who actually deserve it, so let’s not muddy the waters with baseless and dishonest inflammatory rhetoric that has nothing to do with anything that anyone actually said, mmkay? ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2009, 6:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-target-is-hospice-wha/504730/93 "2009-08-02T06:23:36Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > It’s hard enough in this country to get the government to kill people who actually deserve it, so let’s not muddy the waters with baseless and dishonest inflammatory rhetoric that has nothing to do with anything that anyone actually said, mmkay? In my opinion, the following is baseless and inflammatory rhetoric: [Quote=Starving Artist] Hospice is bad if you are forced into it by a government health care program that decides your life isn’t worth saving or prolonging. [/Quote] Post #2 of this thread. I remind all that the quoted poster that he has yet to provide any plausible information that the government is going to suddenly start dictating whose life is worth saving or prolonging, when this apparently has not been the case during the entirety of the Medicare program, nor has he provided any information whatever indicating that the government would be more likely to do this than a private insurer. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2009, 10:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-target-is-hospice-wha/504730/94 "2009-08-02T10:58:24Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Does it cost as much as a hip replacement? A bypass operation? Dialysis? Heart, brain or lung surgery? > > Please note that there is a distinction between fears that the government will opt to withhold lifesaving procedures as a cost saving measure and fears-- unexpressed by anyone that I know of – that the government has decided to “kill” people. > > It’s hard enough in this country to get the government to kill people who actually deserve it, so let’s not muddy the waters with baseless and dishonest inflammatory rhetoric that has nothing to do with anything that anyone actually said, mmkay? So–give us your list of the people you want the government to kill… (And thanks to\*\* El\_Kabong\*\* for tossing the charge of “baseless and dishonest inflammatory rhetoric” back into your lap before I got a chance.) ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2009, 11:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-target-is-hospice-wha/504730/95 "2009-08-02T11:26:17Z")
> [@](#): > > I know that last September Baroness Warnock was quoted, or possibly misquoted, as saying the very elderly sick had a ‘duty to die’, and I have seen people profess to fear that the existence of a formalised approach to assisted dying could lead to it somehow becoming part of national health policy. > > **I very much doubt this could be the case. We are a democracy and no democratic government is going to get anywhere with a policy of compulsory or even recommended euthanasia. If we were ever to end up with such a government, we would be in so much trouble that the problem would become the least of our worries.** taken [from an excellent article](http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1203622/Ill-die-endgame-says-Terry-Pratchett-law-allow-assisted-suicides-UK.html) linked in MPSIMS by **Equipoise** (thanx again). ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2009, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-target-is-hospice-wha/504730/96 "2009-08-02T14:27:37Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > It’s hard enough in this country to get the government to kill people who actually deserve it, so let’s not muddy the waters with baseless and dishonest inflammatory rhetoric that has nothing to do with anything that anyone actually said, mmkay? Dang! And I just paid off my new irony meter. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2009, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-target-is-hospice-wha/504730/97 "2009-08-02T15:32:32Z")
Clearly, this is not something we can rely on the government to do, we must take personal responsibility to ensure that the undeserving are not wasting our oxygen. Me, I’m going to start in right away, I’ll make a little list (of people who won’t be missed)… Well, maybe not so “little” a list… ---
**Author:** ![CutterJohn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/91b2a8/32.png) [@CutterJohn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CutterJohn)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2009, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-target-is-hospice-wha/504730/98 "2009-08-04T03:08:46Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > You have got to be kidding me! You don’t like having to call your insurance company to okay a test and you think government health care will make that easier? The government provided me with pretty damned good free healthcare while I was in the military. The doctors were no less inclined to help, anything that I needed done was just done, with minimal paperwork other than standard incident report questionnaires if I had hurt myself. I see no reason at all that this cannot be expanded and still function perfectly well. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2009, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-target-is-hospice-wha/504730/99 "2009-08-04T03:11:20Z")
Totally different! That’s military health care, we’re talking about government run health care! Glad I could help. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2009, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-target-is-hospice-wha/504730/100 "2009-08-04T03:21:33Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Totally different! That’s military health care, we’re talking about government run health care! Glad I could help. My husband had Medicare for a couple of years and had multiple surgeries, hospitalizations, and other procedures. We never called Medicare that I can recall. I know the pharmacy had to call his advantage plan a few times when his dosages weren’t on the formulary. I do not know what any medical staff may have called for or when. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-target-is-hospice-wha/504730.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-new-target-is-hospice-wha/504730.md?page=6)