# The Newtown shooting was really really bad... **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 8, 2013, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-newtown-shooting-was-really-really-bad/675825 "2013-12-08T16:02:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 17
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-newtown-shooting-was-really-really-bad/675825/321 "2013-12-17T21:14:30Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Well, that’s explicitly addressed in the DoI’s preamble: > > …but I’m not aware of any part of this that got translated over to the Constitution, hence it has no legal weight. See second amendment 🙂 > [@](#): > > Heck, the DoI poetically declares that all men are created equal, but the more banal Constitution didn’t take this to mean slavery was abolished. That amendment came almost a century later. And the amendment process is available to get rid of the second amendment as well. > [@](#): > > I haven’t, actually. Wasn’t planning to. The second one is a lot better than the first one. > [@](#): > > Pro-lifer. Ha. And pro-gunner = pro choice? 😉 I do think there are a lot of analogies between the two. One side wants to exercise constitutionally protected rights and the other side wants to whittle them away (often with the ultimate goal of getting rid of them entirely). ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-newtown-shooting-was-really-really-bad/675825/322 "2013-12-17T21:46:41Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > See second amendment 🙂 Yeah, there’s nothing in there about using arms to secure the rights of individuals, just the security of the state. If anything, that implies it is _not_ intended to facilitate uprisings against the U.S. government, even if it has become oppressive in some ways but remains “free” in others. Consider the oath of allegiance (written while the revolution was still in progress) contains the phrase “all enemies, foreign and domestic”. Once the revolution was complete and a new government established, I don’t see where that new government installed or implied legal language that anticipated its violent overthrow. The mechanisms for change are uniformly nonviolent - try violence, and you become a domestic enemy. > [@](#): > > And the amendment process is available to get rid of the second amendment as well. Yes, but it’s somewhat unfortunate for your country that for many this has become a matter of principle and not logic. > [@](#): > > And pro-gunner = pro choice? 😉 > > I do think there are a lot of analogies between the two. > > One side wants to exercise constitutionally protected rights and the other side wants to whittle them away (often with the ultimate goal of getting rid of them entirely). Yeah, why do you think that is? Is the whittling desired for the sake of whittling? Just to be spiteful? Just for the hell of it? ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-newtown-shooting-was-really-really-bad/675825/323 "2013-12-17T22:26:54Z")
> [@crucible](#): > > Just a thought experiment… > > If you woke tomorrow morning and, magically, all ‘firearms’, including everything we thing of aa a ‘gun’ were gone, no one had even one…not the cops, not anybody, except in the arsenal where soldiers train for serving in the armed forces… > > What do you think would actually happen next? Someone would make one. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-newtown-shooting-was-really-really-bad/675825/324 "2013-12-17T22:29:55Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Yeah, there’s nothing in there about using arms to secure the rights of individuals, just the security of the state. (shortened for clarity) Apparently you missed the SCOTUS ruling in District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U.S. 570 (2008). The 2nd Amendment IS an individual right. In fact, ALL of the first 10 amendments are rights of the individual and not the state. Every reference to “the people” means just that - the people. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-newtown-shooting-was-really-really-bad/675825/325 "2013-12-17T22:40:57Z")
What is this _Heller_ decision you speak of? No one has brought it up in this thread even once! ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-newtown-shooting-was-really-really-bad/675825/326 "2013-12-17T23:01:18Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > (shortened for clarity) > > Apparently you missed the SCOTUS ruling in District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U.S. 570 (2008). The 2nd Amendment IS an individual right. No, I didn’t miss anything - I was responding to the specific claim that the 2nd Amendment was all I needed to reference (“See second amendment”). Of _course_ there are later court decisions clarifying how the amendment should be interpreted and applied - this is true of of all constitutional governments where the founding document spells out the principles in broad strokes, to be later clarified by legislation and court rulings. I gather this was recognized from the 13th amendment onward, where Amendments generally include wording along the lines of “Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.” Heck, on its face, the 14th Amendment should have immediately given women the vote and legalized gay marriage and solved all the issues that made the later Civil Rights Act necessary. Obviously, it did not. Anyway, _Heller_ is the latest interpretation, but it won’t be the last, I expect. _Cruikshank_ wasn’t. _Miller_ wasn’t. > [@](#): > > In fact, ALL of the first 10 amendments are rights of the individual and not the state. Every reference to “the people” means just that - the people. Well, that’s _one_ interpretation. It’s not the only one. The upshot is that is that anyone who wants to argue for individual gun ownership should be citing _Heller_ (the latest interpretation of the 2nd Amendment) and not the 2nd Amendment itself, but I guess that means sacrificing all that “Founding Fathers” street cred. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-newtown-shooting-was-really-really-bad/675825/327 "2013-12-17T23:22:14Z")
> [@andros](#): > > What is this _Heller_ decision you speak of? No one has brought it up in this thread even once! You must be new to the gun-rights issues in the U.S… District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U.S. 570 (2008) and McDonald v. Chicago, 561 U.S. 3025 (2010). The 2nd Amendment is an individual right and it applies to all of “the people” in the U.S. allowing for certain restrictions. It also states that the government can’t force firearm owners to disable their firearms in their homes. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-newtown-shooting-was-really-really-bad/675825/328 "2013-12-17T23:31:03Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > You must be new to the gun-rights issues in the U.S… You must be new to the thread. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2013, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-newtown-shooting-was-really-really-bad/675825/329 "2013-12-18T00:09:52Z")
Or the board. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2013, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-newtown-shooting-was-really-really-bad/675825/330 "2013-12-18T00:20:24Z")
By the way, as of today, I’ve lost $14.61 on my investment, and that’s not counting the $9.99 transaction fee. Some of this may be due to fluctuations between the U.S. and Canadian dollar or maybe sanity is returning to America. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2013, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-newtown-shooting-was-really-really-bad/675825/331 "2013-12-18T16:22:35Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Yes, but it’s somewhat unfortunate for your country that for many this has become a matter of principle and not logic. Thats true for both sides of the debate. > [@](#): > > Yeah, why do you think that is? Is the whittling desired for the sake of whittling? Just to be spiteful? Just for the hell of it? For the ultimate goal of getting rid of the right entirely. In both cases. > [@andros](#): > > What is this _Heller_ decision you speak of? No one has brought it up in this thread even once! And yet people keep forgetting its there. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2013, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-newtown-shooting-was-really-really-bad/675825/332 "2013-12-18T17:03:43Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > …Anyway, _Heller_ is the latest interpretation, but it won’t be the last, I expect. _Cruikshank_ wasn’t. _Miller_ wasn’t. > Well, that’s _one_ interpretation. It’s not the only one. The upshot is that is that anyone who wants to argue for individual gun ownership should be citing _Heller_ (the latest interpretation of the 2nd Amendment) and not the 2nd Amendment itself, but I guess that means sacrificing all that “Founding Fathers” street cred. Where in the Cruikshank or Miller ruling did it state that the 2nd was not/could not be an individual right? Heller specifically stated that the 2nd was an individual right. Which political party are you expecting to create this gun-free utopia you favor? An independent party? A new party that hasn’t been formed yet? Or are you counting on the Democrat Party to finally complete its repeated attempts to ban/register/confiscate firearms, one at a time, or in assault weapon bunches? ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2013, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-newtown-shooting-was-really-really-bad/675825/333 "2013-12-18T17:21:58Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > Which political party are you expecting to create this gun-free utopia you favor? An independent party? A new party that hasn’t been formed yet? Or are you counting on the Democrat Party to finally complete its repeated attempts to ban/register/confiscate firearms, one at a time, or in assault weapon bunches? Well, if I’m not mistaken the push for longarm registration began under Campbell and was supported by a number of Conservatives and Progressive Conservatives, although there was admittedly a great deal of dissension in the ranks, and the bulk of the Conservative party has since fought against it. The Firearms Act of 1993 was introduced by the Liberal Party; members of all four major federal parties supported it, though again, a large portion of the Conservative party continues in opposition. So I’d take a wild stab and suggest he’s probably looking to the Liberal party and the NewDems. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2013, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-newtown-shooting-was-really-really-bad/675825/334 "2013-12-18T17:23:12Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > Or are you counting on the Democrat Party to finally complete its repeated attempts to ban/register/confiscate firearms, one at a time, or in assault weapon bunches? Oh, also, I find it absolutely fascinating that you conflate “registration” with “banning” and “confiscation.” That says a lot. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2013, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-newtown-shooting-was-really-really-bad/675825/335 "2013-12-18T17:44:42Z")
> [@andros](#): > > Oh, also, I find it absolutely fascinating that you conflate “registration” with “banning” and “confiscation.” That says a lot. Yes it does. Registration is the first step of confiscation. You need to learn what your opposition’s main concerns “actually” are if you intend to change minds. ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2013, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-newtown-shooting-was-really-really-bad/675825/336 "2013-12-18T18:15:47Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > Yes it does. Registration is the first step of confiscation. You need to learn what your opposition’s main concerns “actually” are if you intend to change minds. Yes, you’re absolutely right. Just look at what happened after they introduced registration in Canada! Don’t be fooled! ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2013, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-newtown-shooting-was-really-really-bad/675825/337 "2013-12-18T18:25:31Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > Yes it does. Registration is the first step of confiscation. You need to learn what your opposition’s main concerns “actually” are if you intend to change minds. You seem to be operating under several misconceptions, my friend. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2013, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-newtown-shooting-was-really-really-bad/675825/338 "2013-12-18T18:40:20Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > You need to learn what your opposition’s main concerns “actually” are . . . And you do that how? ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2013, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-newtown-shooting-was-really-really-bad/675825/339 "2013-12-18T18:48:47Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > Yes it does. Registration is the first step of confiscation. And purchase is the first step toward massacre. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2013, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-newtown-shooting-was-really-really-bad/675825/340 "2013-12-18T18:49:50Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > And you do that how? The usual ways. Ask questions and listen to the answers. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-newtown-shooting-was-really-really-bad/675825.md?page=16) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-newtown-shooting-was-really-really-bad/675825.md?page=18)