# The next big automotive scandal? **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [September 18, 2015, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-next-big-automotive-scandal/731693 "2015-09-18T18:27:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2015, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-next-big-automotive-scandal/731693/1 "2015-09-18T18:27:34Z")
Breaking news now, the EPA is claiming that Volkswagen/Audi diesel cars [deliberately cheat](http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2015/09/18/epa-says-vw-intentionally-violates-clean-air-standards/) on emissions tests. Per the article: > [@](#): > > The EPA says the cars include a device programmed to detect when the car is undergoing official emissions testing. The cars only turn on full emissions control systems during that testing. The EPA says the controls are turned off during normal driving situations. Whooo boy… At least the General Motors ignition scandal was just a basic case of a flaw that got ignored. This is Volkswagen deliberately thumbing its nose at regulations. Assuming it’s true, VW is going to get bitten _hard_. Probably much worse than the $900 million fine GM just agreed to. ---
**Author:** ![Projammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/projammer/32/559_2.png) [@Projammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Projammer)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2015, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-next-big-automotive-scandal/731693/2 "2015-09-18T18:44:12Z")
I’d love to hear the whole backstory about how this was uncovered. But yeah, gonna suck to be a VW shareholder for a while. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2015, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-next-big-automotive-scandal/731693/3 "2015-09-18T19:06:23Z")
IIRC, this is permitted in the NEDC (European equivalent) test program because it is supposed to simulate ideal conditions or something along those lines. So it _might_ be a genuine screw-up rather than a deliberate evasion. Not exactly holding my breath, though. ---
**Author:** ![lost4life](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c4cdca/32.png) [@lost4life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lost4life)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2015, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-next-big-automotive-scandal/731693/4 "2015-09-18T19:13:24Z")
The EPA typically comes down hard on things like this with fines and recalls. It’s happened before. One manufacturer adjusted the vehicle to have better emissions when the hood was open. The only time your car would be doing 60 mph with the hood up would be in a test cell. For diesel testing, they used different test points of speed and load to get an overall average. Pretty much every manufacturer was accused of designing around these tests so the vehicle did better when at these specific points. The total fines, IIRC, were close to a billion. ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2015, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-next-big-automotive-scandal/731693/5 "2015-09-18T20:06:18Z")
> [@Projammer](#): > > I’d love to hear the whole backstory about how this was uncovered. But yeah, gonna suck to be a VW shareholder for a while. [here.](http://yosemite.epa.gov/opa/admpress.nsf/bd4379a92ceceeac8525735900400c27/dfc8e33b5ab162b985257ec40057813b!OpenDocument) > [@EPA](#): > > EPA and CARB uncovered the defeat device software after independent analysis by researchers at West Virginia University, working with the International Council on Clean Transportation, a non-governmental organization, raised questions about emissions levels, and the agencies began further investigations into the issue. In September, after EPA and CARB demanded an explanation for the identified emission problems, Volkswagen admitted that the cars contained defeat devices. ---
**Author:** ![Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a183cd/32.png) [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barkis_is_Willin)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2015, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-next-big-automotive-scandal/731693/6 "2015-09-18T20:12:49Z")
From the OP’s article: “The EPA said VW faces fines of up to $37,500 per vehicle for the violations – a total of more than $18 billion.” ---
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2015, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-next-big-automotive-scandal/731693/7 "2015-09-18T20:19:07Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > IIRC, this is permitted in the NEDC (European equivalent) test program because it is supposed to simulate ideal conditions or something along those lines. So it _might_ be a genuine screw-up rather than a deliberate evasion. Not exactly holding my breath, though. Who wrote those laws, the International Olympic Commision? And people say that US regulators are too chummy with the industry… :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2015, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-next-big-automotive-scandal/731693/8 "2015-09-18T20:20:07Z")
> [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](#): > > From the OP’s article: > > “The EPA said VW faces fines of up to $37,500 per vehicle for the violations – a total of more than $18 billion.” highly unlikely they’ll go for the maximum fine. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2015, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-next-big-automotive-scandal/731693/9 "2015-09-18T20:21:48Z")
Am I the only one surprised that VW has sold half a million diesels in the US? ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2015, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-next-big-automotive-scandal/731693/10 "2015-09-18T21:03:31Z")
From here: [EPA accuses Volkswagen of cheating Clean Air Act, orders recall](http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/epa-accuses-volkswagen-cheating-clean-air-act-orders-recall) > [@](#): > > The violations carry potential fines of more than $35,000 per vehicle, which means the German automaker is on the hook for as much as $18 billion, plus the cost of retrofitting nearly 500,000 recalled vehicles. So it’s up to $18 billion and, in addition, the cost of retrofitting half a million cars. So how will they retrofit the cars? Will they simply change the software so that the pollution control devices function all of the time? The only reason I can see for them having cheated like this would be to increase performance and / or mpg. If that’s the case, then changing the software will reduce either performance or mpg or both. If it does, will the consumer then have recourse for the performance or mpg not being as advertised? If it were to reduce mpg, what happens if the vehicle no longer meets the legal mpg requirements? Is this a gigantic kettle of worms? ---
**Author:** ![voltaire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voltaire/32/313_2.png) [@voltaire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/voltaire)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2015, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-next-big-automotive-scandal/731693/11 "2015-09-18T21:07:25Z")
> [@jz78817](#): > > highly unlikely they’ll go for the maximum fine. Any fines could be nothing compared to the costs of having to install fully compliant emissions controls on a whole bunch of used cars. Cars whose drivers might not get quite as much “fahrvergnügen” once their cars are no longer belching as many pollutants. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2015, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-next-big-automotive-scandal/731693/12 "2015-09-18T21:19:53Z")
> [@davidm](#): > > The only reason I can see for them having cheated like this would be to increase performance and / or mpg. If that’s the case, then changing the software will reduce either performance or mpg or both. If it does, will the consumer then have recourse for the performance or mpg not being as advertised? New buyers, yes. Used buyers are SOL, with the possible exception of those who purchased CPO vehicles. ---
**Author:** ![Cell\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/df705f/32.png) [@Cell\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cell_Guy)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2015, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-next-big-automotive-scandal/731693/13 "2015-09-19T01:03:47Z")
As the owner of a 2011 Jetta TDI I’m very interested in the ramifications of this news. In particular I’d like to know if/how the resale value is affected. ---
**Author:** ![Folacin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/folacin/32/3195_2.png) [@Folacin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Folacin)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2015, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-next-big-automotive-scandal/731693/14 "2015-09-19T01:16:50Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > New buyers, yes. Used buyers are SOL, with the possible exception of those who purchased CPO vehicles. Why wouldn’t used car purchasers have recourse? I certainly check the ratings on the used cars I buy, and expect them to be accurate. ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2015, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-next-big-automotive-scandal/731693/15 "2015-09-19T01:41:42Z")
> [@Folacin](#): > > Why wouldn’t used car purchasers have recourse? I certainly check the ratings on the used cars I buy, and expect them to be accurate. And if they turn out not to perform as quoted by the manufacturer, do you need to sue the manufacturer or the first owner? ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2015, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-next-big-automotive-scandal/731693/16 "2015-09-19T02:43:46Z")
it’s also very sad that they marketed this car as a clean diesel, that probably swayed a lot of people to consider it, even gave some of them Prius like bragging rights, though all along it was, relative to it’s size, the same black smoke belching vehicle as a mac truck. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2015, 11:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-next-big-automotive-scandal/731693/17 "2015-09-19T11:40:51Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > it’s also very sad that they marketed this car as a clean diesel, that probably swayed a lot of people to consider it, even gave some of them Prius like bragging rights, though all along it was, relative to it’s size, the same black smoke belching vehicle as a mac truck. ☹ nitrogen oxides are not black smoke. black smoke is particulate matter (soot,) meaning solid carbon. ---
**Author:** ![Folacin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/folacin/32/3195_2.png) [@Folacin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Folacin)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2015, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-next-big-automotive-scandal/731693/18 "2015-09-19T12:42:24Z")
> [@Ethilrist](#): > > And if they turn out not to perform as quoted by the manufacturer, do you need to sue the manufacturer or the first owner? When the airbag’s on my Honda were recalled, Honda fixed it, although I was the second owner. I would expect the same here. The first owner in neither case had any control over the problem. ---
**Author:** ![Count\_Blucher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Count\_Blucher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Count_Blucher)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2015, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-next-big-automotive-scandal/731693/19 "2015-09-19T14:14:26Z")
> [@jz78817](#): > > highly unlikely they’ll go for the maximum fine. Yes, but Fahfromovah? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2015, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-next-big-automotive-scandal/731693/20 "2015-09-19T15:29:40Z")
My brother had a car he loved, then he got mail explaining that the advertised MPG was incorrect. Since then, he gets a check each year based on the miles he drives, to rebate his gasoline expenses! [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-next-big-automotive-scandal/731693.md?page=2)