# The next big automotive scandal? **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [September 18, 2015, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-next-big-automotive-scandal/731693 "2015-09-18T18:27:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2015, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-next-big-automotive-scandal/731693/181 "2015-10-19T13:01:11Z")
> [@davidm](#): > > Will they have a choice? > Is that article online? To answer my own questions: Here is the article: [http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/19/business/the-owner-has-a-crucial-part-in-volkswagen-diesel-repair.html?\_r=0](http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/19/business/the-owner-has-a-crucial-part-in-volkswagen-diesel-repair.html?_r=0) According to the article the EPA cannot force owners to have the repair. Some states require owners to carry out any emissions recall repairs. For other states, probably nothing would happen as long as the car passes emissions tests. The illegally rigged cars presumably would do so if they have in the past. The article mentions the possibility of VW offering some incentive that would make it desirable to have the repairs done. It doesn’t say if VW would be required to do so. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2015, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-next-big-automotive-scandal/731693/182 "2015-10-19T13:05:20Z")
Thanks - I assumed it was behind a paywall and I tend not to link to those. ---
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-next-big-automotive-scandal/731693/183 "2015-11-02T19:04:06Z")
…and just when the scandal seemed to be quieting down, VW’s problems just got bigger. [They’re cheating with another engine as well,](http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2015/11/02/epa-says-volkswagen-cheated-2nd-time-on-pollution-tests/) their 3.0 L, 6-cylinder diesel. Previously, they’d only admitted it with their smaller 4-cyclinder engine. Jesus, I want to smack these guys on the head and ask: > [@me (in my dreams)](#): > > _"What in the hell were you thinking?_ Why did you ever think you could get away with this? And once you did get caught, what Mensa candidate said, “Let’s not tell them about the 6-cyclinder. Maybe they won’t think to check our other engines”? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-next-big-automotive-scandal/731693/184 "2015-11-02T19:17:21Z")
Well, they \*did \*get away with it for almost 10 years. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-next-big-automotive-scandal/731693/185 "2015-11-02T19:40:29Z")
In retrospect, it seems obvious. If they developed the cheat for one engine, why not use it on more, or all? ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-next-big-automotive-scandal/731693/186 "2015-11-02T20:28:26Z")
even worse: > **[EPA: VW cheated on Audi, Porsche diesel SUVs, too](https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2015/11/02/epa-diesel-suv-volkswagen-audi-porsche/75044132/)** > > The EPA has filed a second complaint against the automaker. The EPA, California Air Resources Board and Environment Canada discovered the additional cheating while testing Volkswagen’s vehicles. **They have found nothing similar while conducting tests of other car companies.** ---
**Author:** ![wolfman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a8b319/32.png) [@wolfman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfman)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-next-big-automotive-scandal/731693/187 "2015-11-02T20:41:43Z")
With all the apparent corporation wide lack of integrity that seems endemic to VW, this scandal could really tarnish the legacy of Hitler and the Nazis. ---
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-next-big-automotive-scandal/731693/188 "2015-11-02T21:21:47Z")
> [@jz78817](#): > > even worse: > > [EPA: VW cheated on Audi, Porsche diesel SUVs, too](http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2015/11/02/epa-diesel-suv-volkswagen-audi-porsche/75044132/) > > The EPA, California Air Resources Board and Environment Canada discovered the additional cheating while testing Volkswagen’s vehicles. **They have found nothing similar while conducting tests of other car companies.** As a fan of American cars, I must say: 🆒 Does anybody know if Opel (owned by General Motors) or Ford’s European division have been caught cheating? We’ve already established that European emissions tests allow for an absurd amount of gaming the system, but has outright cheating been found with any other companies? ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-next-big-automotive-scandal/731693/189 "2015-11-02T21:21:52Z")
> [@Diceman](#): > > …and just when the scandal seemed to be quieting down, VW’s problems just got bigger. [They’re cheating with another engine as well,](http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2015/11/02/epa-says-volkswagen-cheated-2nd-time-on-pollution-tests/) their 3.0 L, 6-cylinder diesel. Previously, they’d only admitted it with their smaller 4-cyclinder engine. > > Jesus, I want to smack these guys on the head and ask: Wow, and these larger-engined cars include Porsche and Audi. Oh, man - this is historic in its stupidity. There will be books written, Harvard Business Review cases developed and argued, and maybe even a law or two affected. How is VW going to survive this? Germany will figure something out, but they are have damaged their reputation for a long, long time. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-next-big-automotive-scandal/731693/190 "2015-11-02T21:27:46Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Porsche doesn’t build any diesels. There’s a diesel Cayenne but it uses an unmodified VAG engine. > [@jz78817](#): > > plus it uses the 3.0 V6 which is evidently not under suspicion. Yet. > [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Well, it’s probably under suspicion. At this point, I’m suspicious of my non-diesel VW. They just haven’t found anything wrong with it yet. 🙂 I need to get in on the death pool. ---
**Author:** ![Count\_Blucher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Count\_Blucher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Count_Blucher)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-next-big-automotive-scandal/731693/191 "2015-11-02T22:04:57Z")
> [@WordMan](#): > > Wow, and these larger-engined cars include Porsche Porsche: Accept No Pollution Statute 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-next-big-automotive-scandal/731693/192 "2015-11-02T22:21:25Z")
I guess if you get nabbed robbing one bank, you don’t automatically confess to all of the others you’ve robbed. Of course that analogy does break down when they can test other banks. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-next-big-automotive-scandal/731693/193 "2015-11-02T22:28:12Z")
> [@davidm](#): > > I guess if you get nabbed robbing one bank, you don’t automatically confess to all of the others you’ve robbed. > > Of course that analogy does break down when they can test other banks. If you have to admit wrongdoing, do it big, get everything out, and say you were sorry. VW fired their CEO within a week - an attempt to do it big. But the guy taking over was the head of Porsche, so they didn’t come close to getting everything out, and likely ruined the new CEO’s chances for coming across as credible. Harvard Business School case on poor crisis management… ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-next-big-automotive-scandal/731693/194 "2015-11-02T22:43:12Z")
Next we’ll discover that they were covering their losses by cheating at fantasy football. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2015, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-next-big-automotive-scandal/731693/195 "2015-11-03T04:08:40Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > In retrospect, it seems obvious. If they developed the cheat for one engine, why not use it on more, or all? This will definitely make it harder to claim it was just a rogue engineer or two. ---
**Author:** ![Patch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a183cd/32.png) [@Patch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Patch)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2015, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-next-big-automotive-scandal/731693/196 "2015-11-03T05:20:11Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Well, they \*did \*get away with it for almost 10 years. As **davidm** asked in post [#161](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18757873&postcount=161) above, how the heck did they keep it quiet for anywhere near that long? ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2015, 6:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-next-big-automotive-scandal/731693/197 "2015-11-03T06:09:37Z")
> [@Patch](#): > > As **davidm** asked in post [#161](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18757873&postcount=161) above, how the heck did they keep it quiet for anywhere near that long? Somehow they must have minimized the number of people who were in on it. Maybe one or two engineers added a patch to the code after it went through all of the code review and testing. Maybe there was some kind of test mode in the code that everyone, except a select few, assumed was turned off for production. But a number of engineers, etc. had to know that it was possible at least in theory to turn off the pollution controls via software, right? Wouldn’t someone have questioned that? Maybe it has something to do with the nature of diesel engines. Maybe it’s necessary, legitimate, and possible to turn off the controls temporarily at some point, like when the engine is started. If so, then it would be designed to allow software control, and then it would just be a matter of patching the code, either by patching the binary or simply replacing it with code that was recompiled with a different or additional class or whatever. ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2015, 9:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-next-big-automotive-scandal/731693/198 "2015-11-03T09:34:34Z")
> [@davidm](#): > > Somehow they must have minimized the number of people who were in on it. Maybe one or two engineers added a patch to the code after it went through all of the code review and testing. Maybe there was some kind of test mode in the code that everyone, except a select few, assumed was turned off for production. > > But a number of engineers, etc. had to know that it was possible at least in theory to turn off the pollution controls via software, right? Wouldn’t someone have questioned that? > > Maybe it has something to do with the nature of diesel engines. Maybe it’s necessary, legitimate, and possible to turn off the controls temporarily at some point, like when the engine is started. If so, then it would be designed to allow software control, and then it would just be a matter of patching the code, either by patching the binary or simply replacing it with code that was recompiled with a different or additional class or whatever. As far as I can tell, on the cars without SCR (the ones using the “lean NOx trap”) the PCM calls for WAY more EGR pull during the test cycle, inhibiting the formation of NOx by the engine and ran a different fuel map to keep the catalysts and DPF hot to also keep particulate formation low. Outside of the test cycle- on the road- EGR use was cut way back and the engine’s NOx output was simply too much for the trap to handle. With the latest accusation on cars with SCR, it sounds like they used more DEF dosing and a different fuel map during the test cycle, but reduced dosing on the road. Probably so they could advertise a longer fill interval for the DEF. ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2015, 11:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-next-big-automotive-scandal/731693/199 "2015-11-03T11:10:01Z")
You might as well be talking Greek, so I’ll just take your word for it. ---
**Author:** ![Throatwarbler\_Mangrove](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8c91f0/32.png) [@Throatwarbler\_Mangrove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Throatwarbler_Mangrove)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2015, 11:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-next-big-automotive-scandal/731693/200 "2015-11-03T11:49:10Z")
> [@jz78817](#): > > As far as I can tell, on the cars without SCR (the ones using the “lean NOx trap”) the PCM calls for WAY more EGR pull during the test cycle, inhibiting the formation of NOx by the engine and ran a different fuel map to keep the catalysts and DPF hot to also keep particulate formation low. Outside of the test cycle- on the road- EGR use was cut way back and the engine’s NOx output was simply too much for the trap to handle. > > With the latest accusation on cars with SCR, it sounds like they used more DEF dosing and a different fuel map during the test cycle, but reduced dosing on the road. Probably so they could advertise a longer fill interval for the DEF. Wasn’t the increased DEF dosing part of the original complaint that the EPA launched back in Sep? I was always confused by that little tidbit. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-next-big-automotive-scandal/731693.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-next-big-automotive-scandal/731693.md?page=11)