# The next big automotive scandal? **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [September 18, 2015, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-next-big-automotive-scandal/731693 "2015-09-18T18:27:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![voltaire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voltaire/32/313_2.png) [@voltaire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/voltaire)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2015, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-next-big-automotive-scandal/731693/21 "2015-09-19T16:13:29Z")
> [@Folacin](#): > > When the airbag’s on my Honda were recalled, Honda fixed it, although I was the second owner. I would expect the same here. > > The first owner in neither case had any control over the problem. The law is different for safety related recalls. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2015, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-next-big-automotive-scandal/731693/22 "2015-09-19T16:18:58Z")
> [@jz78817](#): > > nitrogen oxides are not black smoke. black smoke is particulate matter (soot,) meaning solid carbon. What does the “blu-tech” fluid that these high-compliance diesels use actually do? ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2015, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-next-big-automotive-scandal/731693/23 "2015-09-19T18:57:41Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > What does the “blu-tech” fluid that these high-compliance diesels use actually do? With diesels, the speed/output of the engine is governed strictly by the amount of fuel injected; they are not controlled by the opening and closing of a throttle. Therefore, they run anywhere from pretty lean to extremely lean fuel:air ratios. they can have oxidation catalysts to clean up unburned hydrocarbons and CO, but there is so much excess oxygen in the exhaust that a traditional reduction catalyst won’t work. It’ll just pull free oxygen from the exhaust stream rather than reducing it out of the nitrogen oxides. so most vehicles use the urea in the DEF to act as a reducing agent in a separate catalyst. Right now it might seem like a clunky solution, but it’s the best we’ve found so far. ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2015, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-next-big-automotive-scandal/731693/24 "2015-09-19T19:25:03Z")
> [@voltaire](#): > > Any fines could be nothing compared to the costs of having to install fully compliant emissions controls on a whole bunch of used cars. Cars whose drivers might not get quite as much “fahrvergnügen” once their cars are no longer belching as many pollutants. I would never comply with a recall procedure that rendered my car worse than it was before, but then again, where I live I could get away with that. Of course, I’d never own a VW diesel to start with. ---
**Author:** ![GaryM](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/garym/32/241_2.png) [@GaryM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GaryM)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2015, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-next-big-automotive-scandal/731693/25 "2015-09-19T19:47:55Z")
> [@Gatopescado](#): > > I would never comply with a recall procedure that rendered my car worse than it was before, but then again, where I live I could get away with that. Of course, I’d never own a VW diesel to start with. Until the feds work a deal with the DMV where you can’t get license plates until the recall is completed. ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2015, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-next-big-automotive-scandal/731693/26 "2015-09-19T19:52:15Z")
Ah, those pesky Feds! ---
**Author:** ![Rick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9f8e36/32.png) [@Rick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2015, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-next-big-automotive-scandal/731693/27 "2015-09-19T22:08:47Z")
> [@voltaire](#): > > The law is different for safety related recalls. Cite for that? As far as I know a recall is a recall period. They also never expire. So if you have a 20 year old car with an open recall the car maker is on the hook to repair it. Which gets… Interesting when the parts have been discontinued. > [@kayaker](#): > > My brother had a car he loved, then he got mail explaining that the advertised MPG was incorrect. Since then, he gets a check each year based on the miles he drives, to rebate his gasoline expenses! Hyundai and KIA did this as a customer satisfaction gesture when they screwed up the MPG ratings on their cars. > [@GaryM](#): > > Until the feds work a deal with the DMV where you can’t get license plates until the recall is completed. No need for the Feds. Recall information is public and available. California DMV often requires proof of emission recall completion before renewing license tags. I say often because it does not appear to be 100%. I would get 1-2 requests a week for a completion form. ---
**Author:** ![sparky\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/77aa72/32.png) [@sparky\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sparky_1)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2015, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-next-big-automotive-scandal/731693/28 "2015-09-20T00:20:21Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Am I the only one surprised that VW has sold half a million diesels in the US? Ever drive one? The torque is incredible! It makes for a very spirited, fun drive. And the economy is fantastic. I had a 2012 Jetta TDI that routinely got up in the high 40’s mpg, and was a hell of a lot of fun to drive. Unfortunately, that great diesel engine was wrapped in a VW lemon. Stuff started going bad and the dealers I tried were less than useless to remedy. ---
**Author:** ![ssgenius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@ssgenius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ssgenius)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2015, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-next-big-automotive-scandal/731693/29 "2015-09-20T01:58:38Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Am I the only one surprised that VW has sold half a million diesels in the US? Interesting to find out that Volkswagen is the number one producer in the world of cars (not including trucks) More than Toyota GM or Ford !!! ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2015, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-next-big-automotive-scandal/731693/30 "2015-09-20T03:01:35Z")
> [@Rick](#): > > Cite for that? As far as I know a recall is a recall period. They also never expire. So if you have a 20 year old car with an open recall the car maker is on the hook to repair it. Which gets… Interesting when the parts have been discontinued. nope. most recalls are spearheaded by NHTSA, for safety defects. NHTSA recalls mean you have to issue a stop delivery/stop demonstration order. new cars on a dealer’s lot which are under a recall literally _cannot be sold_ until the remedy is done. EPA-backed recalls don’t carry that same weight, though states with inspection will likely refuse to renew registration of non-compliant vehicles. > [@sparky\_1](#): > > Ever drive one? The torque is incredible! It makes for a very spirited, fun drive. too bad for you that all gasoline TDI engines have a lot more torque and a shitload more horsepower than your piddly little VW stinker. yes, they do. VW/Audi 2.0 TDI diesel: 150 hp, 236 lb-ft Ford Ecoboost 2.0 gas: 245 hp, 275 lb-ft Buick Regal 2.0T gas: 259 hp, 295 lb-ft Hyundai Sonata 2.0T gas: 245 hp, 260 lb-ft Lexus IS 2.0T gas: 241 hp, 258 lb-ft yeah, the VW TDI engine’s torque is so “incredible” because it’s way lower than all the other 2.0T gas engines’ torque ratings. _diesel_ does not get you more torque. _Turbocharging_ does. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2015, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-next-big-automotive-scandal/731693/31 "2015-09-20T06:03:41Z")
> [@jz78817](#): > > too bad for you that all gasoline TDI engines have a lot more torque and a shitload more horsepower than your piddly little VW stinker. > > yes, they do. Jesus, who the hell pissed in your cornflakes? The guy makes a harmless comment about the enjoyment he gets driving his car, and you feel the need to stomp all over him? Lighten up, Francis. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2015, 8:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-next-big-automotive-scandal/731693/32 "2015-09-20T08:14:55Z")
Doesn’t really worry me even though I drive a car with a a 2.0 diesel from VW. (though it is a Skoda) In the UK things are different so I probably won’t be subject any recall. My car does 0-60 in just over 8 seconds and I’m averaging 60mpg and it is such a relaxed delivery that you barely notice it. Quoting bare power and torque figures doesn’t tell you too much about how the car drives. I test drove the 2.0 ecoboost from ford and it is a fast car and a lovely engine but under real-world driving conditions it isn’t significantly faster (merging, overtaking and cruising) and the economy was much, much worse. There’s no such thing as a free lunch. ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2015, 8:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-next-big-automotive-scandal/731693/33 "2015-09-20T08:45:49Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > Jesus, who the hell pissed in your cornflakes? The guy makes a harmless comment about the enjoyment he gets driving his car, and you feel the need to stomp all over him? Lighten up, Francis. He’s far from the only person to perpetuate the “diesel=torque” myth. ---
**Author:** ![sparky\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/77aa72/32.png) [@sparky\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sparky_1)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2015, 11:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-next-big-automotive-scandal/731693/34 "2015-09-20T11:29:16Z")
> [@jz78817](#): > > He’s far from the only person to perpetuate the “diesel=torque” myth. Question: which has the flatter power band? If I’m not mistaken, the diesel will hit peak torque much sooner than will a gasoline engine. Hence the “feel” that it is more responsive. So, your gas engine may have higher numbers, but they aren’t as immediate as the diesel. And no way does a gas car match the fuel efficiency of a diesel. Oh, and I drive a gas car now. ---
**Author:** ![sparky\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/77aa72/32.png) [@sparky\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sparky_1)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2015, 11:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-next-big-automotive-scandal/731693/35 "2015-09-20T11:33:04Z")
> [@jz78817](#): > > He’s far from the only person to perpetuate the “diesel=torque” myth. Oops, I should have kept reading… **Novelty Bobble** nailed it with his post. Lots of times that gas engine with the high numbers will have to be flogged (get way up in the RPM range) before you start to get that higher power. A diesel has that power right there, down low where the average driver needs it. So, feel free to apologize for your little outburst. ---
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2015, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-next-big-automotive-scandal/731693/36 "2015-09-20T15:11:33Z")
> [@ssgenius](#): > > Interesting to find out that Volkswagen is the number one producer in the world of cars (not including trucks) > > More than Toyota GM or Ford !!! They’re not especially popular in the US, but VW pretty much owns Europe. And in Europe, I don’t think any Japanese automakers do very well. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2015, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-next-big-automotive-scandal/731693/37 "2015-09-20T15:26:09Z")
> [@jz78817](#): > > He’s far from the only person to perpetuate the “diesel=torque” myth. Way to miss the point. Whether he was right or wrong about diesel engines is actually irrelevant to my main concern, which is that it is possible to correct someone in a friendly thread without being a jerk about it. ---
**Author:** ![voltaire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voltaire/32/313_2.png) [@voltaire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/voltaire)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2015, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-next-big-automotive-scandal/731693/38 "2015-09-20T17:22:51Z")
> [@Rick](#): > > Cite for that? As far as I know a recall is a recall period. As someone already said, safety related recalls are handled by NHTSA under a different set of laws than emissions recalls, which are handled by the EPA. > [@](#): > > They also never expire. So if you have a 20 year old car with an open recall the car maker is on the hook to repair it. Which gets… Interesting when the parts have been discontinued. At least with NHTSA recalls, car makers [ARE NOT on the hook](http://www.nhtsa.gov/Vehicle+Safety/Recalls+&+Defects/Motor+Vehicle+Safety+Defects+and+Recalls+Campaigns?renderPage=5) for recalls after 10 years have passed between the date of original sale and the date of the recall. ---
**Author:** ![Rick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9f8e36/32.png) [@Rick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2015, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-next-big-automotive-scandal/731693/39 "2015-09-20T23:04:52Z")
> [@voltaire](#): > > At least with NHTSA recalls, car makers [ARE NOT on the hook](http://www.nhtsa.gov/Vehicle+Safety/Recalls+&+Defects/Motor+Vehicle+Safety+Defects+and+Recalls+Campaigns?renderPage=5) for recalls after 10 years have passed between the date of original sale and the date of the recall. either you misunderstood me or you did not read your link carefully. I said recalls never expire. I never said that a car older than 10 years can be recalled. There is a difference between those two statements. If a recall was launched 20 years ago and you just now bring the car in to get it fixed the car maker is on the hook to remedy the defect. I have seen this in action. In the late 1970s Volvo launched a recall on the fuel tanks of mid 1970s Volvo 240s. Repair included a new fuel tank and fittings. When I was a service manager in 2008 I had a customer come in and want the recall preformed. The parts for the recall were long discontinued., but the recall was open and valid. Bottom line was the car company was on the hook. They finally gave the customer a healthy check in return for scrapping the vehicle. ---
**Author:** ![Balthisar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/balthisar/32/2825_2.png) [@Balthisar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balthisar)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2015, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-next-big-automotive-scandal/731693/40 "2015-09-21T01:09:49Z")
> [@Diceman](#): > > They’re not especially popular in the US, but VW pretty much owns Europe. Similarly, they seem to own the market in China. I think there are more VW’s in my city than there are in the entire United States. (The last sentence is hyperbole.) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-next-big-automotive-scandal/731693.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-next-big-automotive-scandal/731693.md?page=3)