# The next big automotive scandal? **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [September 18, 2015, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-next-big-automotive-scandal/731693 "2015-09-18T18:27:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![usedtobe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ec9cab/32.png) [@usedtobe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/usedtobe)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2015, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-next-big-automotive-scandal/731693/61 "2015-09-22T02:37:32Z")
Aren’t turbochargers (which use the exhaust pressure to turn a turbine to compress intake air) an incredibly complex device to install in a compact car? It seems like the mindset was “We’re going to make this shitty diesel work!” and started adding ever-more complex devices on it until it had enough horsepower and torque (reasons for the turbo) that it would be more-or-less usable in a passenger car - as long as the car was small enough. The obvious - um, ya know, we _could_ just use a gas engine - was, it seems, heresy. (not that there is anything wrong with heresy, just sayin’…) ---
**Author:** ![Rick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9f8e36/32.png) [@Rick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2015, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-next-big-automotive-scandal/731693/62 "2015-09-22T03:01:13Z")
> [@Spud](#): > > "From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia > > Volkswagen Group products which feature a TDI engine display a TDI badge > Turbocharged Direct Injection or TDI [1] is a design of turbodiesel engines, which feature turbocharging and cylinder-direct fuel injection,[1] developed and produced by the Volkswagen Group.[2] These TDI engines are widely used in all mainstream Volkswagen Group marques of passenger cars and light commercial vehicles produced by the company[3] (particularly those sold in Europe). They are also used as marine engines - Volkswagen Marine,[4][5][6] and Volkswagen Industrial Motor[7] applications. > > In many countries, TDI is a registered trademark of Volkswagen AG.[2] > > The TDI designation has also been used on vehicles powered by Land Rover designed diesel engines. These are unrelated to VAG engines." > > Care to show me where they mention TDI being used for anything but a Diesel engine. Yes there are turbo charged gas engines… and yes there are turbo charged fuel injected gas engines. But there are no “TDI” gas engines. Here is one: [http://m.hyundaiusa.com/sonata/features.html?&cmpid=PM\_PS\_Google\_8a0g6p11456361236&gclid=CLOMucjSicgCFYmCfgod1KkLlQ](http://m.hyundaiusa.com/sonata/features.html?&cmpid=PM_PS_Google_8a0g6p11456361236&gclid=CLOMucjSicgCFYmCfgod1KkLlQ) Turbo charged direct injected gasoline engine. The Koreans call it GDI because as your cute points out TDI is a trademark owned by VW. But anyway you look at it this is a turbocharged direct injected engine. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2015, 7:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-next-big-automotive-scandal/731693/63 "2015-09-22T07:28:42Z")
> [@Rick](#): > > Here is one: > [http://m.hyundaiusa.com/sonata/features.html?&cmpid=PM\_PS\_Google\_8a0g6p11456361236&gclid=CLOMucjSicgCFYmCfgod1KkLlQ](http://m.hyundaiusa.com/sonata/features.html?&cmpid=PM_PS_Google_8a0g6p11456361236&gclid=CLOMucjSicgCFYmCfgod1KkLlQ) > Turbo charged direct injected gasoline engine. The Koreans call it GDI because as your cute points out TDI is a trademark owned by VW. > But anyway you look at it this is a turbocharged direct injected engine. You’ve just proved the point, to the best of my knowledge no-one in the industry uses Tdi for anything other than a diesel engine. Tsi is what VW used for their range of small petrol turbo direct-injection engines. ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2015, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-next-big-automotive-scandal/731693/64 "2015-09-22T13:50:15Z")
> [@Spud](#): > > "From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia > > Volkswagen Group products which feature a TDI engine display a TDI badge > Turbocharged Direct Injection or TDI [1] is a design of turbodiesel engines, which feature turbocharging and cylinder-direct fuel injection,[1] developed and produced by the Volkswagen Group.[2] These TDI engines are widely used in all mainstream Volkswagen Group marques of passenger cars and light commercial vehicles produced by the company[3] (particularly those sold in Europe). They are also used as marine engines - Volkswagen Marine,[4][5][6] and Volkswagen Industrial Motor[7] applications. Ok, that article is very poorly written. not least because it makes it sound like VW invented the direct injection diesel engine. > [@](#): > > In many countries, TDI is a registered trademark of Volkswagen AG.[2] > > The TDI designation has also been used on vehicles powered by Land Rover designed diesel engines. These are unrelated to VAG engines." > > Care to show me where they mention TDI being used for anything but a Diesel engine. Yes there are turbo charged gas engines… and yes there are turbo charged fuel injected gas engines. But there are no “TDI” gas engines. I don’t care about marketing/trademark fluff. Just because VW has a trademark which says no one else can use the abbreviation “TDI” doesn’t mean the engines _aren’t._ I mean, UPS has a trademark on the shade of brown they paint their vehicles in. > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > You’ve just proved the point, to the best of my knowledge no-one in the industry uses Tdi for anything other than a diesel engine. > > Tsi is what VW used for their range of small petrol turbo direct-injection engines. good for them. every single car/truck diesel engine on the market is **t** urbocharged and **d** irect- **i** njected\*. Just because VW reserved use of the “TDI” moniker doesn’t change what they are. I’m not selling anything, so I am not required let them dictate my use of the term. - the main reason they came up with the “TDI” moniker is because up until then, most automotive/light truck diesel engines were indirect-injected; combustion began in a small swirl chamber connected to the main cylinder via a narrow passage. This was sort of a “fad” in the '70s and '80s to try to make diesels quieter and cleaner, at the cost of a bit of efficiency. prior to that, direct injection was common going all the way back to the 1930s. ---
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2015, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-next-big-automotive-scandal/731693/65 "2015-09-22T14:13:33Z")
Well, VW is saying that [11 million vehicles worlwide](http://www.autonews.com/article/20150922/COPY01/309229952/vw-says-11-million-diesel-vehicles-worldwide-have-rigged-emissions) have the test-cheating software, and they’re setting aside over $7 billion to fix the problem. To me, the fact that they were able to come up with this number so quickly (remember, this scandal only broke last Friday), suggests that they must have known all along what they were doing. I’m wondering about the $7 billion price tag. I’d think they’d just need to reprogram the cars so the emissions controls are always on. (Or were the emissions controls originally designed under the assumption that they’d only ever be used during testing, and thus are grossly inadequate for real-world use?) ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2015, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-next-big-automotive-scandal/731693/66 "2015-09-22T14:19:06Z")
> [@jz78817](#): > > good for them. every single car/truck diesel engine on the market is **t** urbocharged and **d** irect- **i** njected\*. PSA is still making an indirect-injection diesel, and even makes a non-turbo diesel. ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2015, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-next-big-automotive-scandal/731693/67 "2015-09-22T14:35:33Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > PSA is still making an indirect-injection diesel, and even makes a non-turbo diesel. really. which ones are they? ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2015, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-next-big-automotive-scandal/731693/68 "2015-09-22T14:41:39Z")
> [@Diceman](#): > > To me, the fact that they were able to come up with this number so quickly (remember, this scandal only broke last Friday), suggests that they must have known all along what they were doing. There’s no suggestion involved: VW has not admitted to making a technical error, they admitted to deliberately cheating. It would be weird and sloppy if they _didn’t_ know exactly how many vehicles they had programmed to cheat. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2015, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-next-big-automotive-scandal/731693/69 "2015-09-22T14:47:05Z")
Never mind. It was a variant of the EW family but seems to have been phased out. ---
**Author:** ![Drunky\_Smurf](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drunky_smurf/32/449_2.png) [@Drunky\_Smurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drunky_Smurf)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2015, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-next-big-automotive-scandal/731693/70 "2015-09-22T14:59:10Z")
> [@Throatwarbler\_Mangrove](#): > > The amount of mental gymnastics VW apologists will go through to justify their shitty purchases never ceases to amaze me. Next time I go to buy a car, in a couple of years, if you pay for it I will get whatever car you want me to have. Personally I’d like a Hummer H1 Alpha but we can talk about that when the time comes. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2015, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-next-big-automotive-scandal/731693/71 "2015-09-22T15:37:27Z")
> [@jz78817](#): > > good for them. every single car/truck diesel engine on the market is **t** urbocharged and **d** irect- **i** njected\*. Just because VW reserved use of the “TDI” moniker doesn’t change what they are. I’m not selling anything, so I am not required let them dictate my use of the term. > . You can use whatever term you want in whatever circumstances you want but if you speak of a Tdi engine then learn to live with the fact that pretty much everyone who knows anything about cars will assume you are talking about a diesel engine. I suspect this constant misunderstanding gives you a nice opportunity to push your glasses up the bridge of your nose and say “actually…I think you’ll find that…etc. etc.” and of course you’ll be technically right but by the time you’ve explained yourself everyone will have drifted off out of sheer boredom. ---
**Author:** ![SmellMyWort](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ea5d25/32.png) [@SmellMyWort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmellMyWort)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2015, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-next-big-automotive-scandal/731693/72 "2015-09-22T16:06:01Z")
> [@Diceman](#): > > Whooo boy… At least the General Motors ignition scandal was just a basic case of a flaw that got ignored. This is Volkswagen deliberately thumbing its nose at regulations. Assuming it’s true, VW is going to get bitten _hard_. Probably much worse than the $900 million fine GM just agreed to. At least no one has died as the result of VW’s cheating software. Yeah, this was a pretty shitty thing for VW to do, but saying the GM scandal was “just a flaw that got ignored,” kind of ignores the worst part of the whole thing. ---
**Author:** ![zwede](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/ac91a4/32.png) [@zwede](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zwede)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2015, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-next-big-automotive-scandal/731693/73 "2015-09-22T16:07:02Z")
> [@Diceman](#): > > I’d think they’d just need to reprogram the cars so the emissions controls are always on. (Or were the emissions controls originally designed under the assumption that they’d only ever be used during testing, and thus are grossly inadequate for real-world use?) I read a Motor Trend article this morning that suggested turning on “compliance mode” drastically reduces horsepower and torque and introduces driveability issues (hesitation?). Even if it is just a power reduction it opens up VW to class action law suits as cars that were sold as having a certain power/performance now have substantially less. ---
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2015, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-next-big-automotive-scandal/731693/74 "2015-09-22T16:23:53Z")
> [@SmellMyWort](#): > > At least no one has died as the result of VW’s cheating software. Yeah, this was a pretty shitty thing for VW to do, but saying the GM scandal was “just a flaw that got ignored,” kind of ignores the worst part of the whole thing. Still, I bet they get fined far worse than GM or Toyota did, because of the intent. The feds will take an extremely dim view of a company that deliberately gamed the system. > [@zwede](#): > > I read a Motor Trend article this morning that suggested turning on “compliance mode” drastically reduces horsepower and torque and introduces driveability issues (hesitation?). > > Even if it is just a power reduction it opens up VW to class action law suits as cars that were sold as having a certain power/performance now have substantially less. Also, the low emissions were a major selling point. The idea that these were “green” vehicles was heavily flogged. So, you can make a very plausible argument that VW was defrauding its customers. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2015, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-next-big-automotive-scandal/731693/75 "2015-09-22T16:33:42Z")
I am waiting for the lawsuits alleging health problems caused by the cars.VW may well go bankrupt. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2015, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-next-big-automotive-scandal/731693/76 "2015-09-22T16:38:27Z")
Want to bet? ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2015, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-next-big-automotive-scandal/731693/77 "2015-09-22T16:59:16Z")
> [@Diceman](#): > > Still, I bet they get fined far worse than GM or Toyota did, because of the intent. The feds will take an extremely dim view of a company that deliberately gamed the system. the fines can be bigger because this is coming down from the EPA, and the EPA has _far_ bigger clubs to beat violators with than NHTSA does. ---
**Author:** ![voltaire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voltaire/32/313_2.png) [@voltaire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/voltaire)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2015, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-next-big-automotive-scandal/731693/78 "2015-09-22T17:04:28Z")
The part about this whole story that gets me is how ineffective the EPA was at catching this. They were so _obviously_ ineffective, that VW was apparently confident they could get away with it. They got away with it for 6 years, and if it weren’t for some independent researchers trying to show how clean diesel could be, they would _still_ be getting away with it. Meanwhile, we have those that want to do away with the EPA entirely, when it’s evident that we need _more_ EPA enforcement. SHOCKER: It turns out that letting [manufacturers “self-certify” their own emissions](http://www.autonews.com/article/20150922/BLOG06/150929959/1657) claims isn’t the greatest idea. ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2015, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-next-big-automotive-scandal/731693/79 "2015-09-22T17:06:11Z")
> [@SmellMyWort](#): > > At least no one has died as the result of VW’s cheating software. Right. I mean [since when has pollution ever killed anybody?](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/air-pollution-china-deaths_55cd9a62e4b0ab468d9cefa9) ---
**Author:** ![HookerChemical](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/278dde/32.png) [@HookerChemical](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HookerChemical)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2015, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-next-big-automotive-scandal/731693/80 "2015-09-22T17:28:28Z")
> [@jz78817](#): > > highly unlikely they’ll go for the maximum fine. I expect it will be along the lines of “We can hit you for 18 billion. We’ll be kind and only ask for half of that to start the negotiations.” You pretty much have to deliberately emit deathanol in in Times Square while filing a report saying you’re emitting rainbows, kicking a puppy and stealing candy from children to get the maximum penalty. > [@jz78817](#): > > With diesels, the speed/output of the engine is governed strictly by the amount of fuel injected; they are not controlled by the opening and closing of a throttle. Therefore, they run anywhere from pretty lean to extremely lean fuel:air ratios. they can have oxidation catalysts to clean up unburned hydrocarbons and CO, but there is so much excess oxygen in the exhaust that a traditional reduction catalyst won’t work. It’ll just pull free oxygen from the exhaust stream rather than reducing it out of the nitrogen oxides. so most vehicles use the urea in the DEF to act as a reducing agent in a separate catalyst. Right now it might seem like a clunky solution, but it’s the best we’ve found so far. Thanks for the explanation. I couldn’t reconcile adding nitrogen in urea to reduce NOx, but that makes sense. (I work with air pollution regulations, but I don’t ever deal with this type of post-combustion control.) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-next-big-automotive-scandal/731693.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-next-big-automotive-scandal/731693.md?page=5)