# The next big automotive scandal? **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [September 18, 2015, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-next-big-automotive-scandal/731693 "2015-09-18T18:27:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2015, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-next-big-automotive-scandal/731693/121 "2015-09-23T15:54:06Z")
> [@Spud](#): > > I can’t find it now, but I believe I read somewhere that it was related to if the hood was unlatched/up. That still doesn’t make much sense though since anyone tuning up the vehicle would have to have the hood up. there’s a number of ways. the test procedure defines ambient temperature, a precise warm-up time, the steering wheel is always straight forward (important for a FWD car because the test is done on rolls,) the stability control has to be disabled, etc. Everyone blamed GM for kneecapping the idea of diesel cars in the '80s. Well, now you can thank VW for putting a bullet in its head. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2015, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-next-big-automotive-scandal/731693/122 "2015-09-23T16:06:56Z")
> [@jz78817](#): > > Everyone blamed GM for kneecapping the idea of diesel cars in the '80s. Well, now you can thank VW for putting a bullet in its head. To be fair, GM loved the\* idea \*of diesel cars, they just couldn’t figure out how to build one. ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2015, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-next-big-automotive-scandal/731693/123 "2015-09-23T16:12:15Z")
> [@kunilou](#): > > To be fair, GM loved the\* idea \*of diesel cars, they just couldn’t figure out how to build one. I’m talking about in the mind of the general public. ---
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2015, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-next-big-automotive-scandal/731693/124 "2015-09-23T16:42:34Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > [VW CEO Martin Winterkorn has stepped down](http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/V/VOLKSWAGEN?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2015-09-23-11-22-36). I was waiting for this to happen. For a scandal as big as this, there must be blood. The real question is, will the engineers who pulled this stunt face any reprecussions? ---
**Author:** ![Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a183cd/32.png) [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barkis_is_Willin)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2015, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-next-big-automotive-scandal/731693/125 "2015-09-23T16:59:34Z")
> [@Spud](#): > > I can’t find it now, but I believe I read somewhere that it was related to if the hood was unlatched/up. That still doesn’t make much sense though since anyone tuning up the vehicle would have to have the hood up. I also read and also can’t find that article, but I think the hood cheat was related to GM trucks. I haven’t heard what criteria VW used to cheat, but it may very well have also been the hood unlatched. Not sure steering angle input would be best because you’d run your default program for some amount of time before diagnosing that you’re on a dyno. Would the change in behavior be noticeable to the tester? ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2015, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-next-big-automotive-scandal/731693/126 "2015-09-23T17:26:43Z")
> [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](#): > > I also read and also can’t find that article, but I think the hood cheat was related to GM trucks. I haven’t heard what criteria VW used to cheat, but it may very well have also been the hood unlatched. > > Not sure steering angle input would be best because you’d run your default program for some amount of time before diagnosing that you’re on a dyno. Would the change in behavior be noticeable to the tester? The test starts with a cold engine, and there is a pre defined warm up time before datancollection begins… ---
**Author:** ![Jeff\_Lichtman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jeff_lichtman/32/1531_2.png) [@Jeff\_Lichtman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jeff_Lichtman)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2015, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-next-big-automotive-scandal/731693/127 "2015-09-23T17:27:29Z")
Here are [two](http://jalopnik.com/understanding-the-test-mode-that-let-vw-trick-the-emiss-1732175835) [articles](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-switch/wp/2015/09/22/the-tech-behind-how-volkswagen-tricked-emissions-tests/) about how VW programmed their cars to tell when they were undergoing smog testing. The first article points out that a car being tested is on a dynamometer, so that the front (powered) wheels would be spinning while the rear (unpowered) wheels would be stationary. The second article gives a summary of the steps in the testing procedure. Both articles say that testing modes are pretty common in cars. The usual purpose is to prevent the cars’ automated systems from misinterpreting the test conditions. For instance, running the car on a dyno with the non-driving wheels stationary might trick a traction-control system into thinking something was wrong. What’s different in this case is that the test mode was designed not to only prevent false errors from being reported, but to temporarily enable the emissions controls. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2015, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-next-big-automotive-scandal/731693/128 "2015-09-23T18:21:36Z")
Are any of these cars made in Mexico? Maybe the fines can be used to build the fence to keep them out. ---
**Author:** ![Spud](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spud/32/347_2.png) [@Spud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spud)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2015, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-next-big-automotive-scandal/731693/129 "2015-09-23T19:44:01Z")
> [@jz78817](#): > > I’m talking about in the mind of the general public. Kind of like how in the mind of the general public there is no TDI engine that is gas. 😃 Please note that funny little green face… it denotes I’m kidding a bit. You should not get defensive and feel like you have to prove that something exists even though it can’t be called that due to some “marketing/trademark fluff.” Geeze… you would think you have never seen a pendant on these boards before. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2015, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-next-big-automotive-scandal/731693/130 "2015-09-23T20:05:34Z")
> [@Spud](#): > > Geeze… you would think you have never seen a **pendant** on these boards before. Ooooooo! so tempting…but I think you did this on purpose! ---
**Author:** ![Spud](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spud/32/347_2.png) [@Spud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spud)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2015, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-next-big-automotive-scandal/731693/131 "2015-09-23T20:29:01Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Ooooooo! so tempting…but I think you did this on purpose! God I wish I could blame it on auto correct… but sometimes I just have to blame it on being bad at spelling and/or being stupid. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2015, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-next-big-automotive-scandal/731693/132 "2015-09-23T22:13:49Z")
> [@Spud](#): > > God I wish I could blame it on auto correct… but sometimes I just have to blame it on being bad at spelling and/or being stupid. 😃 don’t worry, I can type at 100 wpm but 80 of them are wrong. My wife types perfectly and speedily without looking at the keyboard, bloody show-off. ---
**Author:** ![Rick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9f8e36/32.png) [@Rick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2015, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-next-big-automotive-scandal/731693/133 "2015-09-23T23:12:27Z")
> [@Machine\_Elf](#): > > The steering wheel is one indicator. During an emissions test, the car is in a test cell on rollers, and the steering points straight ahead all the time. If the ECU sees that the car has been going in an absolutely straight line at city/highway speeds ever since the engine was started, it knows it ain’t out on the road. If it sees you wiggling the steering wheel - going around corners, veering around the bend in a highway on-ramp - it knows you ain’t in a test cell. Yes but is that how they did it? It is easy on a CAN bus car to put the steering wheel angle/velocity on the CAN bus, but even on rollers there can be minute steering corrections. I also thought of the ABS detecting that the drive wheels were moving, but the non-drive wheels weren’t. That would work except on AWD cars. Again this info placed on the CAN bus would be available for the ECM. I also thought of the alarm hood switch status being put on the CAN bus which would work unless for some reason the hood was not opened during the test. Does anyone know for a fact how they did it? ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-next-big-automotive-scandal/731693/134 "2015-09-24T00:08:14Z")
> [@Rick](#): > > Yes but is that how they did it? > It is easy on a CAN bus car to put the steering wheel angle/velocity on the CAN bus, but even on rollers there can be minute steering corrections. > I also thought of the ABS detecting that the drive wheels were moving, but the non-drive wheels weren’t. That would work except on AWD cars. Again this info placed on the CAN bus would be available for the ECM. > I also thought of the alarm hood switch status being put on the CAN bus which would work unless for some reason the hood was not opened during the test. > Does anyone know for a fact how they did it? right now there’s tons of speculation, but it’ll probably be months before there’s an official report on how it all went down. much of the speculation, though, seems plausible. ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-next-big-automotive-scandal/731693/135 "2015-09-24T13:19:13Z")
[Bad, BMW! BAD! No!](http://jalopnik.com/german-magazine-claims-the-bmw-x3-diesel-also-violates-1732767600) ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-next-big-automotive-scandal/731693/136 "2015-09-24T13:30:03Z")
🆒 Boy, do I look smart. > [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Honestly, I don’t trust most manufacturers’ claims about anything. I am slightly _less_ concerned about VW’s problems simply because they are not safety-related. Though of course there might be other stuff going on. ---
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2015, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-next-big-automotive-scandal/731693/137 "2015-09-24T14:58:28Z")
[…And now we’re into the realm of government coverups](http://www.foxnews.com/world/2015/09/24/german-ministers-reportedly-were-warned-vw-test-beating-software/?intcmp=hpbt3). Apparrently, the German government has known for a while now that this was going on. Which, if BMW has been doing the same thing, is pretty much a given anyway. A bit off-topic, about halfway down we find this… > [@](#): > > Olaf Lies, economy and transport minister of VW’s home state Lower-Saxony… Yikes. There’s an unfortunate name. :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2015, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-next-big-automotive-scandal/731693/138 "2015-09-25T01:17:53Z")
What gets me about this scandal is all the apologies I’ve heard from every VW official right up to the CEO who just resigned sound so insincere. I keep hearing: “Uh, ve are zo zorry. Yes, zorry. Tank you, dat vill be all.” ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2015, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-next-big-automotive-scandal/731693/139 "2015-09-28T19:48:04Z")
Now reports are coming out that 3.3 million Audi and Skoda cars are also suspect. I think you can stick a fork in VW - they’re done. ---
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2015, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-next-big-automotive-scandal/731693/140 "2015-09-28T20:25:31Z")
All this talk about VW being “done” is seriously making me wonder if the German government will end up doing something to save them. Letting VW fail is absolutely not going to be an acceptable option from Germany’s POV. But given the likely massive cost (reaching into the many billions of dollars/euro) a financial bailout is likely out of the question as well. What might be left is a legislative solution. An “Old VW/New VW” strategy would be right out of the Obama administration’s playbook regarding GM, which would help to blunt the outrage this move would generate. (“What? You guys did the same thing…”) This would very much be the nuclear option, and it would mean VW writing off the US market for the forseeable future, but I honestly think this is more likely than VW undergoing a “disorganized” bankruptcy. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-next-big-automotive-scandal/731693.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-next-big-automotive-scandal/731693.md?page=8)