# The next big automotive scandal? **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [September 18, 2015, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-next-big-automotive-scandal/731693 "2015-09-18T18:27:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![usedtobe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ec9cab/32.png) [@usedtobe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/usedtobe)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2015, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-next-big-automotive-scandal/731693/141 "2015-09-28T23:59:43Z")
Studebaker failed in a massive way. It should now be cited in MBA textbooks. But that was due to monumental stupidity. (Example: by 1955, highway speeds were such that the old 6 volt headlamps were too dim to drive by. The rest of Detroit went with 12v. Studebaker used 8v). VW, had built a great deal of ‘Good Will’ from 1946 onward. To deliberately betray all that good will is incredible. To actively create ill will is incomprehensible. I will still cherish my youthful joy of the bug, van and bus (I had one of each, model years 1963-1965), but will now shudder a little bit when passing a VW dealership in my Japanese-branded car. Damn you - why? why on Earth did you do such an incredibly evil and villainous thing? Why the blind pursuit of diesel when everyone knew diesel and clean air were polar opposites? Why? My reaction to this (‘scandal’ doesn’t come close) is, overwhelmingly, a sense of betrayal. ---
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2015, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-next-big-automotive-scandal/731693/142 "2015-10-05T19:07:25Z")
Well, this is an interesting turn. “Sources” say that VW [hasn’t found any evidence](http://www.autonews.com/article/20151005/OEM02/151009914/vw-has-no-evidence-against-suspended-top-engineers-report-says) against the 3 top engineeres they supended. I’m not saying they’re innocent, but it’s starting to look like VW is mainly looking for someone to throw under the (diesel-fueled) bus. Actual guilt would be nice, but is ultimately optional. Also, the new CEO is the former head of Porshe. So, if the old CEO did know about the cheating, then the new one almost certainly did as well :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2015, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-next-big-automotive-scandal/731693/143 "2015-10-05T19:45:53Z")
“Watchdog Group Says Other Car Companies Are Cheating On Emissions All The Time” > **[Watchdog Group Says Other Car Companies Are Cheating On Emissions All The Time](https://jalopnik.com/watchdog-group-says-other-car-companies-are-cheating-on-1732615322)** > > Volkswagen admitted to cheating on emissions tests with 11 million TDI engines worldwide, but are they alone in this? That’s what regulators and NGOs around the globe are trying to figure out at the moment, and at least one European group fears BMW,... > [@](#): > > ``` > Transport & Environment says ICCT tests show clear discrepancies between laboratory emissions and real-world performance for several automakers including BMW, Mercedes-Benz and General Motors’ Opel unit. It argued that these manufacturers might also employ similar kinds of software in Europe that VW has allegedly admitted to using in the U.S. > > Emissions-reducing technologies “are optimized for the tested conditions and there is substantial anecdotal evidence that the cars detect when they are tested and deploy ‘cycle-beating’ techniques to reduce emissions,” Transport & Environment said in its report. > > “Other manufacturers are basically on the same line” as Volkswagen, said Francois Cuenot, Transport & Environment’s air quality officer. > > ``` > > The group says VW is just the tip of the iceberg here, claiming that there are too many discrepancies in testing to suggest otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2015, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-next-big-automotive-scandal/731693/144 "2015-10-07T00:44:41Z")
> [@davidm](#): > > “Watchdog Group Says Other Car Companies Are Cheating On Emissions All The Time” > [Watchdog Group Says Other Car Companies Are Cheating On Emissions All The Time](http://jalopnik.com/watchdog-group-says-other-car-companies-are-cheating-on-1732615322) Perhaps this will be similar to how we have the Nazis to “thank” for the knowledge gleaned from all those horrid medical experiments. Now the Germans have blown it for all the other cheaters. ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2015, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-next-big-automotive-scandal/731693/145 "2015-10-07T00:55:50Z")
> [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > Perhaps this will be similar to how we have the Nazis to “thank” for the knowledge gleaned from all those horrid medical experiments. Now the Germans have blown it for all the other cheaters. 1. " substantial anecdotal evidence " is a contradiction in terms. 2. all of the “other cheaters” are German. ---
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2015, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-next-big-automotive-scandal/731693/146 "2015-10-08T17:02:53Z")
I was just reading that VW has withdrawn its application with the EPA to certify its 2016 model diesels. Which we can all take to mean that they were still planning on using the cheat devices :mad: In other recent news, they’re saying that newer models (from 2015) supposedly will require just a software fix, which they’ll start doing in January. (Aside: it’s gonna take 3 months to delete a few lines of code? 😕 ). Older models (pre-2015) will require hardware changes, which is estimated to be ready in fall of 2016. ETA: I’d think they’d keep a “clean” version of the code on hand, in case they were found out, or to show the regulators if necessary. ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2015, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-next-big-automotive-scandal/731693/147 "2015-10-08T17:09:28Z")
> [@Diceman](#): > > I was just reading that VW has withdrawn its application with the EPA to certify its 2016 model diesels. > > Which we can all take to mean that they were still planning on using the cheat devices :mad: > > In other recent news, they’re saying that newer models (from 2015) supposedly will require just a software fix, which they’ll start doing in January. (Aside: it’s gonna take 3 months to delete a few lines of code? 😕 ). Older models (pre-2015) will require hardware changes, which is estimated to be ready in fall of 2016. > > ETA: I’d think they’d have a “clean” version of the code on hand, in case they were found out, or to show the regulators if necessary. Create the requirements docs. Determine the needed changes. Get the changes approved. Make the changes. Test the changes. Roll out the changes. 3 months is fast. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2015, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-next-big-automotive-scandal/731693/148 "2015-10-08T17:14:41Z")
> [@Diceman](#): > > Well, this is an interesting turn. “Sources” say that VW [hasn’t found any evidence](http://www.autonews.com/article/20151005/OEM02/151009914/vw-has-no-evidence-against-suspended-top-engineers-report-says) against the 3 top engineeres they supended. I’m not saying they’re innocent, but it’s starting to look like VW is mainly looking for someone to throw under the (diesel-fueled) bus. Actual guilt would be nice, but is ultimately optional. > > Also, the new CEO is the former head of Porshe. So, if the old CEO did know about the cheating, then the new one almost certainly did as well :dubious: Porsche doesn’t build any diesels. There’s a diesel Cayenne but it uses an unmodified VAG engine. ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2015, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-next-big-automotive-scandal/731693/149 "2015-10-08T17:43:27Z")
> [@Diceman](#): > > I was just reading that VW has withdrawn its application with the EPA to certify its 2016 model diesels. > > Which we can all take to mean that they were still planning on using the cheat devices :mad: yep. plus there are/were a bunch of 2016MY TDIs held up at port awaiting certificate of compliance. Since that’s obviously not coming any time soon, VW just said “scheiß drauf” for 2016. > [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Porsche doesn’t build any diesels. There’s a diesel Cayenne but it uses an unmodified VAG engine. plus it uses the 3.0 V6 which is evidently not under suspicion. Yet. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2015, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-next-big-automotive-scandal/731693/150 "2015-10-08T17:47:25Z")
Well, it’s probably under suspicion. At this point, I’m suspicious of my non-diesel VW. They just haven’t found anything wrong with it yet. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2015, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-next-big-automotive-scandal/731693/151 "2015-10-08T18:30:56Z")
> [@jz78817](#): > > yep. plus there are/were a bunch of 2016MY TDIs held up at port awaiting certificate of compliance. Since that’s obviously not coming any time soon, VW just said “scheiß drauf” for 2016. This just begs the question what they’re going to do with those cars. They can’t legally be sold in the United States. Will they ship them back to Europe? Sell them for scrap? Take them into international waters and chuck 'em overboard? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Rick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9f8e36/32.png) [@Rick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2015, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-next-big-automotive-scandal/731693/152 "2015-10-09T03:17:01Z")
I spoke with a friend that works for VWOA today He said that VW has to recall the older cars before they can certify the 2016s so he has been told the 2016 diesels will go on sale in early 2016. He said the older cars will require hardware and software changes, the newer ones just software. He put the break at 2011 and earlier for hardware and software. ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2015, 10:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-next-big-automotive-scandal/731693/153 "2015-10-09T10:24:17Z")
> [@Rick](#): > > I spoke with a friend that works for VWOA today > He said that VW has to recall the older cars before they can certify the 2016s so he has been told the 2016 diesels will go on sale in early 2016. > He said the older cars will require hardware and software changes, the newer ones just software. He put the break at 2011 and earlier for hardware and software. VW just announced yesterday that they’re rescinding their application for CoC on 2016MY cars. If you ordered one, might want to look for something else. I thing Chevy still offers the Cruze diesel. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2015, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-next-big-automotive-scandal/731693/154 "2015-10-09T12:37:33Z")
The lawyers already have class action lawsuits lined up-I heard of an 800 number on the radio yesterday. this will be the beginning of endless litigation. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2015, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-next-big-automotive-scandal/731693/155 "2015-10-09T12:46:45Z")
Do we know who the last person was to buy an affected car prior to the news breaking? ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2015, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-next-big-automotive-scandal/731693/156 "2015-10-09T12:46:49Z")
I thing Sergio Marchione is hiding some big losses…look for an announcement later. Could the firm be bankrupt? stay tuned. ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2015, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-next-big-automotive-scandal/731693/157 "2015-10-09T15:32:05Z")
> **[Top U.S. VW Exec Blames 'A Couple of Software Engineers' for Scandal](https://www.nbcnews.com/business/autos/vw-scandal-top-u-s-exec-offers-sincere-apology-cheating-n440971)** > > Volkwagen's top U.S. executive testified Thursday that emissions-cheating software in diesel cars was the work of "a couple of software engineers." > [@](#): > > Top U.S. VW Exec Blames ‘A Couple of Software Engineers’ for Scandal > [@](#): > > Volkwagen’s top executive in the U.S. told lawmakers on Thursday that cheating on emissions with the use of software in diesel cars was not a corporate decision, but something that “individuals did.” > > “This was a couple of software engineers who put this in for whatever reason,” Michael Horn, VW’s U.S. head, said about the software code designed to cheat on emissions tests, which the company put in diesel cars since 2009. > > “This was not a corporate decision. There was no board meeting that approved this,” he added later, under questioning by members of the House of Representatives Oversight and Investigations panel. We’re supposed to believe that a couple of software engineers decided on their own to do this? Why would they do that? What would they gain from it? And wouldn’t some of VW’s automotive engineers have noticed that the performance was better than expected? This has to be BS. ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2015, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-next-big-automotive-scandal/731693/158 "2015-10-09T15:35:30Z")
“Four more carmakers join diesel emissions row” > **[Four more carmakers join diesel emissions row](https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/oct/09/mercedes-honda-mazda-mitsubishi-diesel-emissions-row?CMP=twt_gu)** > > Mercedes-Benz, Honda, Mazda and Mitsubishi’s cars are shown to emit significantly more NOx pollution on the road than in regulatory tests > [@](#): > > Mercedes-Benz, Honda, Mazda and Mitsubishi have joined the growing list of manufacturers whose diesel cars are known to emit significantly more pollution on the road than in regulatory tests, according to data obtained by the Guardian. > > In more realistic on-road tests, some Honda models emitted six times the regulatory limit of NOx pollution while some unnamed 4x4 models had 20 times the NOx limit coming out of their exhaust pipes. ---
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2015, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-next-big-automotive-scandal/731693/159 "2015-10-09T15:53:16Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > I thing Sergio Marchione is hiding some big losses…look for an announcement later. Could the firm be bankrupt? stay tuned. Depending on how much they gave up in the union contract negotiations, maybe… Seriously, it’s no secret that the “Fiat” half of FCA is losing money. It’s mainly Jeep & Ram keeping the company afloat. Chrysler does OK, but Dodge’s sales are plummeting because FCA is moving it away from mainstream family vehicles and into more of a muscle car niche. (My personal theory is that they’re planning to eventually discontinue Dodge, and make Chrysler their sole US car brand. I also expect that Ram will eventually be put under the Jeep brand.) Everyone knows that Jeep can’t prop up the company forever, which is almost certainly why Sergio is so desperate to merge the company General Motors, or anyone else with money. (This is why you _won’t_ see a FCA/VW merger, at least not until the financial costs of the scandal have become clear. Sergio needs a sugar daddy for his company.) ---
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2015, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-next-big-automotive-scandal/731693/160 "2015-10-09T15:56:14Z")
> [@davidm](#): > > [Top U.S. VW Exec Blames 'A Couple of Software Engineers' for Scandal](http://www.nbcnews.com/business/autos/vw-scandal-top-u-s-exec-offers-sincere-apology-cheating-n440971) > > We’re supposed to believe that a couple of software engineers decided on their own to do this? Why would they do that? What would they gain from it? And wouldn’t some of VW’s automotive engineers have noticed that the performance was better than expected? This has to be BS. Total BS. No engineer would just take it upon himself to do something like that. They’d do it because their boss told them they had to. So far, all evidence suggests that VW is just trying to weasel their way thru this as best they can. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-next-big-automotive-scandal/731693.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-next-big-automotive-scandal/731693.md?page=9)