# The next pandemic in the U.S. must be met by brutal force **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 23, 2020, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-next-pandemic-in-the-u-s-must-be-met-by-brutal-force/928765 "2020-12-23T20:21:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2020, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-next-pandemic-in-the-u-s-must-be-met-by-brutal-force/928765/1 "2020-12-23T20:21:03Z")
If there’s any lesson to be had from this Covid disaster in America, it’s that many millions of Americans will rebel against simple measures like mask-wearing, distancing and quarantining even in the face of horrific numbers such as 300,000 dead, 18 million infected, etc. People will NOT do the right thing; they must be forced. The next time something as serious and contagious as Covid strikes, there’s no alternative but ruthless, brutal force. It must. be. done. The government must mandate mask-wearing, impose heavy penalties (like how Taiwan fined someone $3,000 US for violating his quarantine for a mere eight seconds by stepping outside his designated room,) and ban all indoors activities (save for the most essential,) almost all public events, etc. Let the “don’t tread on me” folks scream tyranny as much as they like. The lesson of Covid is clear: Better to err too much on the side of heavy-handed and draconian than too little. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2020, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-next-pandemic-in-the-u-s-must-be-met-by-brutal-force/928765/2 "2020-12-23T20:28:33Z")
How exactly do you plan on getting any of that done, considering political realities? Do we throw any Republican politician who refuses to wear a mask and thus sets a bad example in prison? ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2020, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-next-pandemic-in-the-u-s-must-be-met-by-brutal-force/928765/3 "2020-12-23T20:29:52Z")
We could start with heavy fines. If that doesn’t work, then escalate. But I wouldn’t recommend general prison since that could spread the virus. Something like house arrest, with guards outside to enforce it, could be suitable. ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2020, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-next-pandemic-in-the-u-s-must-be-met-by-brutal-force/928765/4 "2020-12-23T20:34:49Z")
How about just studious competence for a change of pace? ---
**Author:** ![Akaj](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/akaj/32/145_2.png) [@Akaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Akaj)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2020, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-next-pandemic-in-the-u-s-must-be-met-by-brutal-force/928765/5 "2020-12-23T21:02:15Z")
My plan would be to allow indoor, maskless gatherings of any size. But no one would be allowed to leave. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2020, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-next-pandemic-in-the-u-s-must-be-met-by-brutal-force/928765/6 "2020-12-23T21:02:20Z")
> [@Grey](#): > > How about just studious competence for a change of pace? It still wouldn’t work. You could have the most scientific, studious, competent administration and maybe 40 million would still scream Plandemic, conspiracy, hoax, etc. Brutality and locktight efficiency is the only answer. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2020, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-next-pandemic-in-the-u-s-must-be-met-by-brutal-force/928765/7 "2020-12-23T21:03:38Z")
How brutal are you willing to get to control those 40 million morons? The same bad reasoning that makes them ignore the pandemic may make them ignore the draconian policies you want tonput in place. So what then? Do you mow them down with machine gun fire? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2020, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-next-pandemic-in-the-u-s-must-be-met-by-brutal-force/928765/8 "2020-12-23T21:04:08Z")
The problem here wasn’t what the sheep were doing wrong. The problem was the idiot we had chosen as shepherd. It was Donald Trump who was telling people they should ignore the health precautions that his own government was issuing. I don’t think we’ll ever again run into a situation where the country is dealing with a serious disease and our President decides to publicly support the disease. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2020, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-next-pandemic-in-the-u-s-must-be-met-by-brutal-force/928765/9 "2020-12-23T21:04:56Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Something like house arrest, with guards outside to enforce it, could be suitable. Where is the manpower for this and other enforcement measures coming from, especially given that local level law enforcement has refused to enforce even current mandates? That’s the main practical problem I have with most suggestions of this sort. I suppose you could just leave the rural areas to who don’t want to go along to fend for themselves, but that seems to be the complete opposite of the stated intent, ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2020, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-next-pandemic-in-the-u-s-must-be-met-by-brutal-force/928765/10 "2020-12-23T21:06:40Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > You could have the most scientific, studious, competent administration and maybe 40 million would still scream Plandemic, conspiracy, hoax, etc. These people do not have original thoughts. They only do stupid things when somebody else tells them to. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2020, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-next-pandemic-in-the-u-s-must-be-met-by-brutal-force/928765/11 "2020-12-23T21:07:29Z")
Oh, please. Trump saying stupid things is so effective because Trump’s thoughts are the ones which aren’t original; they’re just whatever his supporters want to hear. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2020, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-next-pandemic-in-the-u-s-must-be-met-by-brutal-force/928765/12 "2020-12-23T21:08:58Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > The problem here wasn’t what the sheep were doing wrong. The problem was the idiot we had chosen as shepherd. It was Donald Trump who was telling people they should ignore the health precautions that his own government was issuing. > > I don’t think we’ll ever again run into a situation where the country is dealing with a serious disease and our President decides to publicly support the disease. It would only work if the president who is competent and scientific is a Republican. If Covid had happened under Obama, you’d see many millions of Americans rebelling all the harder because it’s Obama and the Democrats telling them to wear masks. If anything, Republican compliance rates would be even lower than under Trump right now. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2020, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-next-pandemic-in-the-u-s-must-be-met-by-brutal-force/928765/13 "2020-12-23T21:16:14Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > It would only work if the president who is competent and scientific is a Republican. If Covid had happened under Obama, you’d see many millions of Americans rebelling all the harder because it’s Obama and the Democrats telling them to wear masks. If anything, Republican compliance rates would be even lower than under Trump right now. I disagree. Even the average Republican politician understands there is no advantage in promoting a disease. Let’s say that Ted Cruz or Rick Santorum or Scott Walker had been elected president in 2016; they would have done a lot of terrible things but none of them would have been stupid enough to tell people to ignore competent medical advice. The same is true if Hillary Clinton or Barry Sanders had been elected. Republicans like Mitch McConnell or Paul Ryan wouldn’t have been stupid enough to have chosen this issue to oppose them on. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2020, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-next-pandemic-in-the-u-s-must-be-met-by-brutal-force/928765/14 "2020-12-23T21:39:19Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Do you mow them down with machine gun fire? Lets not rule anything out. Perhaps the consequences of _this_ virus were not severe enough to justify it, but deploying the National Guard to enforce quarantine restrictions seems like it should certainly be a routine part of the pandemic playbook. People are treating @Velocity’s suggestion as though it’s ridiculous. But what if the next virus has a 10% mortality rate? We would need to shut the entire country down, no question of tolerating any of this “mah freedom” nonsense, and we’d certainly give the military authorization to shoot people. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2020, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-next-pandemic-in-the-u-s-must-be-met-by-brutal-force/928765/15 "2020-12-23T21:40:49Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > The lesson of Covid is clear: Better to err too much on the side of heavy-handed and draconian than too little. > [@](#): > > Addressing media this afternoon, Ms Ardern made the announcement and then said New Zealanders must support one another. > > "Go home tonight and check on your neighbours, start a phone tree with your street, plan how you’ll stay in touch with one another. > > “We will get through this together, but only if we stick together so please be strong and be kind.” [https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zealand/kind-jacinda-ardern-urges-people-support-one-another-coronavirus-alert-system-level-rises](https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/new-zealand/kind-jacinda-ardern-urges-people-support-one-another-coronavirus-alert-system-level-rises) > [@](#): > > "We are hearing reports unfortunately of some online bullying and nasty comments directed towards people who have contracted Covid-19, and to say that is a pity is an understatement, there is no shame or blame in having either this virus or any other infectious diseases. > > “People who we know have tested positive to Covid-19 are to be commended, they have done their bit to protect the team of five million, and their quick action in coming forward to be tested and then going into isolation is indeed to be encouraged and commended.” > **[People who test positive should be 'commended' - health boss](https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/423624/people-who-test-positive-should-be-commended-health-boss)** > > The Director General of Health has slammed online abuse of New Zealanders who contract Covid-19, reiterating his comment that there was "no shame or blame" in having contracted the virus. > [@](#): > > [CORONAVIRUS](https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/storytag.:storyTag=newshub:story-tags ___cd___ coronavirus.:offset=0.html) > > # Coronavirus: Health Minister Chris Hipkins says online bullying people with COVID-19 is ‘dangerous’ > > - 15/08/2020 > > - [ > Crystal Wu > ](https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/author-pages/crystal-wu.html) > > > > Chris Hipkins says online bullying directed towards those with COVID-19 is ‘completely unacceptable’. Photo credit: Getty > > Health Minister Chris Hipkins has slammed the online abuse of people with COVID-19. > > Speaking in a press conference today, Hipkins said reports of online bullying directed towards people with the virus were “completely unacceptable”. > > “They’re not only disappointing but also dangerous - so we cannot have people who are feeling unwell not going in for getting a test because they are concerned of the consequences and fearful of a potential backlash,” he said. > > The Director-General of Health Dr Ashley Bloomfield reinforced this by saying “there is no shame or blame in having either this virus or any other infectious diseases”. > > “Once again - the COVID-19 virus is the problem here - not the people who have it,” he said. > **['Completely unacceptable': Health Minister says online bullying people with...](https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2020/08/coronavirus-health-minister-chris-hipkins-says-online-bullying-people-with-covid-19-is-dangerous.html)** > > 'The COVID-19 virus is the problem here - not the people who have it'. > [@](#): > > No matter how many quarantine-related posts you’ve seen on the 'Kiwis in London’ page, they won’t prepare you for the way in which these facilities operate. > > The degree of care and craft is deserving of so much more than the “thank yous” we’d chime whenever we spotted a hospitality worker ducking away after delivering a freshly-prepared food package. And then there’s the patience, creativity and kindness that goes into preparing each meal by the managed isolation facility chefs. > > Each breakfast bag included a lovingly thought out newsletter, complete with riddles and TV-show themed crosswords to pass the time, as well as an optimism-inducing proverb stapled to the corner. > > Those with vegetarian, diet-restrictive, or more relaxed eating habits were all catered to in a choice-of-three style menu, which was nothing short of mouth-watering, (that may sound unhygienic, but with all the soap and shampoos you’re provided with, really, it’s fine). [https://www.stuff.co.nz/travel/kiwi-traveller/122626630/coronavirus-thank-you-new-zealand-for-my-covid19-managed-isolation-experience](https://www.stuff.co.nz/travel/kiwi-traveller/122626630/coronavirus-thank-you-new-zealand-for-my-covid19-managed-isolation-experience) …the New Zealand response to the pandemic was really exemplified by the statement by the Prime Minister as we moved to Level 4: “Be Kind.” It was that message that got most of us through the lockdown. We all committed to the plan for a reason and that reason was to save as many lives as possible. So I completely reject the premise of the OP. It. Must. Not. Be. Done. We locked down harder here in NZ than anywhere else in the OECD. But we didn’t do it with a “heavy hand.” I’m not arguing this approach would work in the US at the next pandemic. Because things are so fundamentally dysfunctional in America at the moment I’m not entirely sure what would work. But it needs to start with following the science and clear, non-contradictory communication from the top down. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2020, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-next-pandemic-in-the-u-s-must-be-met-by-brutal-force/928765/16 "2020-12-23T21:44:15Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > People will NOT do the right thing; they must be forced. Yeah, that’s what every wanna be dictator says. It’s basically how the CCP operates today. The real world effect of that is what the CCP does…lie. Then it SEEMS like everything is cool, because you are brutal and control the narrative. Yup, that’s what we need. I’ve seen several articles on how we need to be more like the CCP, and you seem to be on board. > [@Velocity](#): > > The next time something as serious and contagious as Covid strikes, there’s no alternative but ruthless, brutal force. It must. be. done. The government must mandate mask-wearing, impose heavy penalties (like how Taiwan fined someone $3,000 US for violating his quarantine for a mere eight seconds by stepping outside his designated room,) and ban all indoors activities (save for the most essential,) almost all public events, etc. I don’t have a major problem with most of this…it’s far from ‘brutal’. But in the aggregate and, most importantly deciding to do it by fiat, seemingly, is kind of an issue. ‘Must’ do? Who decides if it’s really necessary and that we need to do it? There have been potential pandemics in the past that never materialized despite not taking draconian measures, so…how will it be if you put the hammer down like you are suggesting and nothing materializes? Just shrug and move on? > [@Velocity](#): > > The lesson of Covid is clear: Better to err too much on the side of heavy-handed and draconian than too little. That isn’t clear at all. Not every nation that was successful resorted to draconian ‘brutal’ measures. I think the real lesson, for me at least, is that if you trust a totalitarian dictatorship and what they say and you don’t check up on them or relate their words to their actions you are going to get burned. The world trusted China (for reasons that are still unclear to me) and they fucked us all early on. The other real lesson, in the US at least is…don’t elect an idiot to the presidency. Hopefully, we have learned THAT lesson, at least. As for draconian and ‘brutal’ measures going forward, I disagree we need to leap to those. Rather, it would be nice if we were simply guided by that science stuff, and the experts. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2020, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-next-pandemic-in-the-u-s-must-be-met-by-brutal-force/928765/17 "2020-12-23T21:47:30Z")
I am infatuated with the idea of brute force…but it won’t work. I’d use this pandemic as a case study for the limits of compliance and work within those parameters toward cooperative regulatory compliance. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2020, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-next-pandemic-in-the-u-s-must-be-met-by-brutal-force/928765/18 "2020-12-23T21:53:32Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Yeah, that’s what every wanna be dictator says. It’s basically how the CCP operates today. The real world effect of that is what the CCP does…lie. Then it SEEMS like everything is cool, because you are brutal and control the narrative. Yup, that’s what we need. I’ve seen several articles on how we need to be more like the CCP, and you seem to be on board. I’m one of the most anti-CCP folks on this board, and I’ve posted in numerous threads about the Uighurs, Hong Kong, espionage, threats, etc. as to why they’re a big threat. But there are some things which dictatorship does better than (most) democracies, and handling a pandemic is one of them. The 1st month of China’s handling of Covid was a balls-up (unsurprising since they were the first to experience it and it was still a new commodity) but the 2nd month was when they snuffed it out. With a dictatorship you don’t have to screw around with red tape or people’s unwillingness to follow orders in a pandemic, you just bring the hammer down. The virus doesn’t read a Constitution. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2020, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-next-pandemic-in-the-u-s-must-be-met-by-brutal-force/928765/19 "2020-12-23T21:57:25Z")
Understand that Chinese people generally accept this degree of government authority, as they have for thousands of years. That’s not to suggest that they don’t have opinions about their government and that they wouldn’t enjoy having more individual freedom in some regards, but they have a much higher level of tolerance for the kinds of crackdowns than we do. It’s just part of their character. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2020, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-next-pandemic-in-the-u-s-must-be-met-by-brutal-force/928765/20 "2020-12-23T22:00:52Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > People are treating @Velocity’s suggestion as though it’s ridiculous. But what if the next virus has a 10% mortality rate? We would need to shut the entire country down, no question of tolerating any of this “mah freedom” nonsense, and we’d certainly give the military authorization to shoot people If the next virus were something truly terrifying - like an antibiotic resistant “superbug” version of the plague, especially pneumonic, then you are right, opening fire to enforce quarantine might be something we resort to. But if that sort of plague hits without being caught early, and if it hits pandemic levels of spread, I think our current civilization is pretty well and truly fucked no matter what we do. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-next-pandemic-in-the-u-s-must-be-met-by-brutal-force/928765.md?page=2)