I kind feel like half the problem with this whole situation is that there is a myth of Amazing American Competence. Yankee know-how. We were so sure that we were competent we didn’t notice that we weren’t, and it’s a pretty facile distinction to say that somehow we are competent, if we want to be.
Very well said. I’ll just add that
… we’re screwed in any kind of public health crisis, from mild to civilization-threatening.
is really
… we’re screwed in any kind of crisis requiring unselfish or judicious behavior, from mild to civilization-threatening.
Like so many folks said back in the naïve times of April: COVID is the quiz; global warming is the final.
The normalization of being able to profiteer by egging on this mass of gullible willfully ignorant humanity ensures they will be so egged in any/every crisis to come.
Though there would STILL have been like 40 million people who would have said “no, this is against my Liberty” and we would still be chasing them around. It would not have been the POTUS leading by bad example but they would be following their evangelists, radio hosts, Freedom Caucus Congressmen, etc. The difference would have been that some local officials would not have felt compelled to hold back lest be seen as opposing the putative Leader.
Yes, sorry I have to agree with D’A here, but the decision to “meet it with brutal force” woudl have to be taken by policy makers who will have witnessed that in the USA, strong responses were NOT appreciated or rewarded but rather incited even stronger pushback. To this day as the second wave hits the Heartland there is still the insistence on NOT having mandates or lockdowns if at all possible.
To put it a bit euphemistically, that was helped a lot by the incentive factor of what was it that was conditional on compliance.
True, it’s about competence but about more so about will, and about failures of nerve and imagination. Our policymakers basically assumed that we are SO competent that there was nothing realistically expectable to which we could not mount an effective response on-the-fly, and preparing for anything that went beyond that would have no public support for the sustained investment or would be seen as suspicious (“why are you preparing for a mass casualty event? ARE YOU EXPECTING ONE???”).
That gets in the way of what MandaJo was speaking about. Saying for example: “Let’s start mass producing tests for any potential pandemic virus long before it’s actually a problem, and throw them away if we don’t need them” will be met by the response, “so, you want to waste my money on imagined what-ifs you fear” from many of the policymaker’s constituents (…which somehow they never raise that about, say, the nuclear arsenal…) or the response “if something bad is about to happen TELL ME I DEMAND TO KNOW WHEN AND WHERE and if it doesn’t happen I’ll punish you for scaring me!”.
Well, the response ought to be "any amount of money spent on prevention is cheaper than the alternative ". I certainly think it’s more plausible than declaring martial law at every pandemic. Same thing will happen then, too–effective brutality would, in retrospect, appear uncalled for.
As I’ve said, I disagree. Ninety-nine percent of those forty million would never have said if somebody else hadn’t told them to say it.
Refer to:
Alex Jones, Kenneth Copeland, et al. would have still been around.
How many of them would have independently come up with the idea of Covid denial on their own?
There’s expense to prison but overall might be cheaper than field hospitals and rental morgue trucks outside thousands of US hospitals.
I live in Shanghai. It’s basically been business as usual here since about late March. I’m typing this having just come back from nightclubbing with friends.
I don’t know what could happen to convince people like you that genuinely the virus was controlled fairly early in China, but I think you should reflect on how quickly covid would spread in an environment where everyone was just pretending it had been controlled, and how much hay the international news agencies would make of one unreported case of covid being found. (They’ve essentially been hinting that such a report would come soon for months, but they still can’t even find one case.)
Now, let me be clear I am not advocating draconian measures as the OP seems to. China controlled the virus because 1. Most people wore masks early on, for cultural reasons 2. Imposing strict lockdowns was partly aided by the chinese new year, in which essentially the whole population is already in a kind of lockdown 3. Nationwide tracing was set up very quickly.
So 1) and 2) don’t apply to the US, and 3) is something the US could have done without imposing on freedoms significantly.
I hope and pray the next pandemic will be met successfully by capable and well-funded people not idiotic, biased political incompetents, like certain administrations I can name.
I can’t help but wonder if Donald took the pandemic serious and talked about how patriotic wearing masks was how differently things might have played out. If he stood up there and told his followers to wear masks to protect against the “Chinese” flu I believe a majority of his supporters would have worn masks. I’m sure there still would have been those who refused, but maybe not quite as many.
Oh, at first I thought you were talking about public health officials who initially lied and said masks were useless, because they didn’t trust the public to make their own.
Then I thought maybe you were talking about the public health officials who said it was perfectly okay to gather by the tens of thousands so long as it was a protest against racism.
Then I thought maybe you were talking about governors who ignored the evidence and put COVID patients in nursing homes.
Finally, I thought maybe you were talking about the myriad leaders around the world who told their populations to lock down, then ignored their own rules and did whatever the hell they wanted.
There is no doubt that people have been pushing back against public health orders. Perhaps next time before we put on the jackboots we should try finding a better class of officials, because the ones we’ve got squandered their authority for politics and comfort. And it wasn’t just Trump. Officials at all levels have behaved like jackasses.
I mean, the people opposing masks and such are completely wrong, but did our leaders really have to give them so much ammunition for their arguments?
There was a time when our leaders would remain in cities being bombed, to keep morale of the population up and show they were all in it together. Now we have a hard time finding leaders who won’t make lockdowns harder by refusing to obey them when there is a party or fundraiser waiting.
These are not the people I would trust with any sort of ‘brutal force’
I agree with your entire post, but wanted to highlight this. As I have said in another thread, if you are going to tell people that they cannot travel, go to restaurants, wear masks when they leave their house, cancel holiday gatherings with family, etc. then I believe that people will come together and do these sorts of thinks (look what we did in WWII).
But people are people, and one of the greatest fears that we have is that we are being treated unfairly, that we are chumps. And when you see the governor’s spouse out flouting the rules, you not only think you about being treated unfairly, but that this thing isn’t as bad as they are saying. If it was so bad, why isn’t the governor’s spouse scared enough to go out?
You aren’t messaging this thing for scientists and great thinkers. You are messaging this to the general public (you know the George Carlin thing is that the average person has an IQ of 100 and half of the people are dumber than that). The people see that they got COVID or their brother got it and had no symptoms at all. So why am I wearing a fucking mask and not able to travel or go to a bar? Why is it safe for 2,000 BLM protestors to be in my home town, but a 60,000 fan capacity stadium must have zero fans?
You can point out how stupid that is, but it gets you nowhere. Make fun of those people and call them racists. How does that help? As a leader, you (the general you) are speaking to people who think at such a level. It is imperative that you set that example, and for all of the reasons Sam_Stone said, they failed miserably and continue to fail miserably.
Right. They’re exactly like those idiots who say, “Hey, smoking can’t be that bad; my uncle Tommy lived to 104 years old and he smoked every day” and they completely ignore that all ten of Tommy’s brothers, chain smokers they were also, died of lung cancer in their 40s and 50s.
It’s all politics. It’s amazing that folks completely hand wave away all the ludicrous statements and behavior by the politicians, academia, and media on the left when it coincides with their ideology.
Are you kidding me? Yes Democrats and some left leaning media made a few missteps, but they were largely the same missteps made by the whole Western world governments in the fog of a novel virus.
What Trump + cronies did was unique. Disbanding the pandemic team, making states fight over ppe (and apparently trying to prioritize red states), knowingly spreading misinformation like “same as flu”, politisizing mask wearing long after the science was clear, holding mass rallies, promoting HCQ and then “joking” about bleach, showing zero compassion for sufferers and health care workers – indeed not even holding the kind of brief where he’d have the opportunity to say such things, demonizing fauci as a kill the messenger move…
… And I’ll bet I’ve missed a whole bunch of stuff.
But yeah, now’s the time to be angry at Dems 
Two things then I’m going to leave it, as I find discussing this with you particularly distasteful. First, Shanghai isn’t all of China, and if your claim is that there have been no lockdowns throughout China since January you are…well, incorrect. There have been a bunch. In fact, the term ‘war footing’ has been used so much in China that it’s practically a catch phrase on Chinese social media. For a reason.
Secondly, you are, by your own admission, a non-Chinese living and working in China. Which means anything you post on this subject, even though it’s on a western board, is suspect, even though you are obviously using a VPN to do it. Anyone taking your words without a heavy grain of salt is being foolish, considering how much the CCP is cracking down on this…this particularly. You working there means they have a very large hammer over your head. But if you were a native Chinese it would STILL be suspect you posting this sort of thing here. I’ve seen, talked to and read countless instances of the CCP pressuring people or just getting them to compromise themselves (those that don’t do it voluntarily) to post glowing horseshit, especially on western media platforms…such as the Straight Dope. There are even terms for such people which I’m not accusing you of being.
But that’s why I don’t engage you on this subject. I don’t trust the CCPs data. I don’t trust your anecdotal data. I have my own sources that either live in China or did so fairly recently and I trust that a lot more. I’m sure I’m the only one here who feels this way, so feel free to engage with them on this. I’ll engage with you on other things, but nothing to do with China.
It’s not an affectation. The CCP think and constantly reminds people that it IS China. It’s basically nothing like referring to America as ‘Dem-Rep’ as those are just political parties in the US. That would be stupid. Personally, I don’t think that the CCP IS China, but THEY think that. They are one and the same. After all, they control the military (unlike either the Dems or Pubs, the military is the armed wing of the party, not the military of the country), they control the economy, they control the media…they control everything. If you are a big business in China they control you. Ask Jack Ma how Ant Group is doing to see just a recent instance of this.
I got mod noted for that already. Nobody really does that for any other one party state, so I find it off putting but obviously ymmv.
I don’t even recall us having a history. I’m sorry that our dance was more special for you than for me.
You were talking about all of China though, and Shanghai is part of China. So, for a start, you need to change your rhetoric to “China minus, like, its most populated cities”.
Secondly, as I’ve mentioned previously, I work in the healthcare industry and have travelled to hospitals around China. I don’t see any evidence of hidden cases of covid anywhere.
And finally, most importantly, it’s an extremely contagious disease. How are you imagining the virus being rampant in one place but Shanghai being an oasis? How do you completely open up factories, schools, offices throughout the country without making the problem increasingly difficult to hide?
Oh, and in terms of lockdowns, that’s exactly the point.
Shanghai recently had its biggest outbreak in six months: six cases. All six were within a housing compound and the whole compound was quarantined and tested several times. Then, anyone who had even visited the district of Shanghai that that compound belonged to needed to get a covid test and were forbidden from travelling outside of Shanghai for two weeks by the tracing app that all people must use. This is how you snuff out outbreaks before they can start.
Brilliant. So you get to make claims about China, based on nothing, and nothing that anyone who lives in China says could ever change your mind.
And I must be living under the CCP’s thumb. Even though I have been critical about China plenty of times on this forum.
I’ll say for example that silencing the doctors in the early days of the outbreak was scandalous and clearly cost lives. How come I’m free to say that but I must somehow be lying or imagining the complete lack of community spread?
I’d love to hear about your sources. We’re at the point now that even outlets like the BBC have confirmed that China has been business as usual for months, with zero evidence of unreported cases, and no major news outlets have even claimed to have evidence to the contrary. Please release the kraken: show the evidence that you have that they don’t.