# The NFL doesn't make much sense to an European **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [February 5, 2015, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nfl-doesnt-make-much-sense-to-an-european/711855 "2015-02-05T01:23:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![RaftPeople](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@RaftPeople](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaftPeople)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2015, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nfl-doesnt-make-much-sense-to-an-european/711855/81 "2015-02-06T16:01:36Z")
> [@The\_Niply\_Elder](#): > > As it is right now, the rules of football have been tweaked such that obese players have time to rest and recover, so they can participate, if you slightly tweak the rules to up the intensity factor a bit, then all those injury prone players would be laid out flat on the field of a cardiac arrest. That will force managers to recruit actually healthy individuals if the team is to survive. So obviously along with the salary cap there would have to be a roster cap much lower than the current 175 bajillion player rosters they have. I’m sorry if you don’t understand this. I just threw up again, this time my laptop got it. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2015, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nfl-doesnt-make-much-sense-to-an-european/711855/82 "2015-02-06T16:05:08Z")
> [@Red\_Wiggler](#): > > Granted, no franchise owner would ever agree to this (at some point, however, the shit _will_ hit the fan with MLS) but I’m curious as to why you think American fans are opposed to promotion/relegation? Personally, I think it would be wonderfully entertaining as part of the college football structure. I’m pretty sure I’m in the minority on this point but it may not be as small a minority as it once was. I’m quite confident that the minority is still tiny. College football would likely be the last place they’d institute it - the conferences are their own separate organizations who have poured over numbers to decide who to extend invitations to. They aren’t going to toss that away for pro/rel. In addition, there is NO WAY that a league like the Big 10 is going to be ok with either Ohio State or Michigan getting relegated due to a bad year, or Big 12 with Texas, etc. And I am confident we will not be seeing pro/rel in MLS in my lifetime. People have got to accept that in an American context, with American media contracts, pro/rel is a non-starter. Add to that the the 2nd tier (the new NASL) doesn’t even have a handful of teams that have stadiums that can seat 10,000. It would damage the league irrevocably and the slide into NASL collapse would commence. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2015, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nfl-doesnt-make-much-sense-to-an-european/711855/83 "2015-02-06T16:09:10Z")
> [@RaftPeople](#): > > I just threw up again, this time my laptop got it. Yeah, I’m not getting what Niply is saying either. I think it’s that if you change the rules, then different body types would be more successful, which is possibly true, but I’m not sure what the hell the point is. And I don’t get where this idea that somehow a fitter person is less likely to get injured when a 300 pound man throws them to the ground than a slightly heavier person. Third, I don’t understand how this “natural selection” would lead to less injuries when everybody is “fitter” and still slamming into each other with great amounts of force. Finally, it’s the running backs who suffer the most injuries, and by and large, they aren’t the obese ones. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2015, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nfl-doesnt-make-much-sense-to-an-european/711855/84 "2015-02-06T16:13:48Z")
Thinking about it further, I also don’t get how a game day roster of 53 is 175 bajillion people and how lowering it would result in less injuries. I must not understand NFL football. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2015, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nfl-doesnt-make-much-sense-to-an-european/711855/85 "2015-02-06T16:14:34Z")
> [@The\_Niply\_Elder](#): > > I realize that’s what you think, but only because of your lack of understanding of the laws of natural selection. Natural selection doesn’t work that way, but that’s a separate debate. > [@The\_Niply\_Elder](#): > > And it’s hard to comment on particular players health status That’s not stopping you, is it? > [@The\_Niply\_Elder](#): > > As it is right now, the rules of football have been tweaked such that obese players have time to rest and recover So, you’re saying you have a “just so” story, i.e. one that kind of makes sense but only if you don’t look too closely at the details? Professional (and college) football schedules have gotten longer with less rest for players over the last 4-5 decades, not shorter. And the result has been more chronic injuries. If you hadn’t noticed, one of the big debates right now deals with head injuries of the concussive AND sub-concussive varieties, which affect larger and small players, regardless of their BMI. > [@The\_Niply\_Elder](#): > > So obviously along with the salary cap there would have to be a roster cap much lower “Obviously”? Not so. Most proposals for a longer season actually increase roster sizes and support more flexible injured reserve rules, because even proponents realize more injuries will be the result. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2015, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nfl-doesnt-make-much-sense-to-an-european/711855/86 "2015-02-06T16:16:55Z")
He’s basically trying to turn football into soccer. ---
**Author:** ![Sir\_T-Cups](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ed655f/32.png) [@Sir\_T-Cups](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sir_T-Cups)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2015, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nfl-doesnt-make-much-sense-to-an-european/711855/87 "2015-02-06T16:17:25Z")
> [@Justin\_Bailey](#): > > Nitpick… the Thursday Night game is shown on CBS for half the season and on the NFL Network for the other half. Yeah, I know. But I was already explaining something relatively complicated and I didn’t want to throw in more information ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2015, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nfl-doesnt-make-much-sense-to-an-european/711855/88 "2015-02-06T16:20:06Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > Yeah, I’m not getting what Niply is saying either. I think it’s that if you change the rules, then different body types would be more successful, which is possibly true, but I’m not sure what the hell the point is. And I don’t get where this idea that somehow a fitter person is less likely to get injured when a 300 pound man throws them to the ground than a slightly heavier person. Third, I don’t understand how this “natural selection” would lead to less injuries when everybody is “fitter” and still slamming into each other with great amounts of force. Finally, it’s the running backs who suffer the most injuries, and by and large, they aren’t the obese ones. Something to consider. A 300 lb man at 10-15% bodyfat (quite good especially as football is not a bodyweight conservation sport like marathoning) is still carrying 30-45 lbs of fat, most of it at the waist. So he may appear to be obese while at a healthy to athletic level of bodyfat. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2015, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nfl-doesnt-make-much-sense-to-an-european/711855/89 "2015-02-06T16:34:43Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > Something to consider. A 300 lb man at 10-15% bodyfat (quite good especially as football is not a bodyweight conservation sport like marathoning) is still carrying 30-45 lbs of fat, most of it at the waist. So he may appear to be obese while at a healthy to athletic level of bodyfat. True, but I do think that a good majority of the fat guys (the linemen) would be considered obese. One study, which the NFL disagreed with, found roughly 56% of NFL players would be considered medically obese. ---
**Author:** ![Stormcrow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/0ea827/32.png) [@Stormcrow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stormcrow)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2015, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nfl-doesnt-make-much-sense-to-an-european/711855/90 "2015-02-06T16:36:54Z")
English Premier League has started to explode in popularity in the US. Its still very early on, but here in Chicago its becoming a big deal. Still a long ways to go, but now you can see games every week on TV, and many sports bars are showing the games on TV. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2015, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nfl-doesnt-make-much-sense-to-an-european/711855/91 "2015-02-06T16:46:53Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > True, but I do think that a good majority of the fat guys (the linemen) would be considered obese. One study, which the NFL disagreed with, found roughly 56% of NFL players would be considered medically obese. [10 year old article.](http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2002624) > [@](#): > > The NFL called the study bogus for using players’ body-mass index, a height-to-weight ratio that doesn’t consider body muscle versus fat. The players union said that despite the familiar sight of bulging football jerseys, there’s no proof that obesity is rampant in the league. > > Almost all the players qualified as overweight, and 56 percent had BMIs of at least 30 – what doctors consider obese. For example, a 6-foot-2 man weighing 235 has a BMI of just over 30. Nearly half of the obese players were in the severely obese range, with a BMI of at least 35, and a small percentage were morbidly obese with a BMI of at least 40. > > Harp acknowledged that without measuring body composition, it’s uncertain how many players were truly fat, but she said it’s unlikely the high BMIs were “due to a healthy increase in muscle mass alone.” I agree it’s flawed by using only BMI measurements. Even Mr. Olympia level bodybuilders are “obese” on BMI charts. ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2015, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nfl-doesnt-make-much-sense-to-an-european/711855/92 "2015-02-06T16:59:22Z")
> [@Justin\_Bailey](#): > > Nitpick… the Thursday Night game is shown on CBS for half the season and on the NFL Network for the other half. That was new for the 2014 season. When it started 7 or 8 years ago, it was only the second half of the season and only on NFL Network. I’d say the only controversial thing about Sunday Ticket is that it’s a DirectTV exclusive. All other sports have similar packages that are provider-agnostic. ---
**Author:** ![Quercus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/7ab992/32.png) [@Quercus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quercus)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2015, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nfl-doesnt-make-much-sense-to-an-european/711855/93 "2015-02-06T17:02:34Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > They aren’t fond of the World Cup, they’re fond of America. Same reason we’re excited about how the US does in Greco-Roman wrestling at the Olympics every 4 years, assuming there’s a medal contender. Otherwise, we don’t care. > > Again, that presumes American’s are interested in soccer, which they are not. They’re interested in how the US does in pretty much any competition, and once we’re eliminated they lose interest quickly. I don’t think that’s completely true. There are lots of casual to serious soccer fans in the US. (you and me, for example). But many of them are not fanatic enough to adopt a European club team to follow, though still being able to have some level of interest in national teams. Speaking for myself, I’d rather watch a UEFA final Spain vs Germany than a Champions League final Real Madrid vs Bayern Munich, even though the talent levels are pretty much the same, and play is probably at a slightly higher level on the club teams (as they have more time playing together and likely fewer holes in personnel). ---
**Author:** ![The\_Niply\_Elder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8e8cbc/32.png) [@The\_Niply\_Elder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Niply_Elder)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2015, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nfl-doesnt-make-much-sense-to-an-european/711855/94 "2015-02-06T17:10:36Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > He’s basically trying to turn football into soccer. Nonsense. I realize that you have a hardon against soccer as evidenced by your posts in this thread. I’m objecting to common assumption that NFL teams can’t play more than 16ish games per year. The NFL could very well set up two tournaments per year. Two Super Bowls per year would be awesome. It just would be played by a different set of people that we have now. I’m sorry if my message turns you off because I’m a bit forceful and blunt about the current health situation of the average NFL player. As such I don’t feel that I have to water down or tiptoe around people’s delusions that the status quo is ok. Believing that football players are overall healthy is like believing that the moon is made of cheese. The NFL will disagree with outside medical studies in the same way that police unions object to investigations into police brutality, unjustified shootings, etc. they will stick by their players, and that’s ok and expected. Can you imagine the embarrassment if players actual medical histories was published by the NFL? Patient confidentiality notwithstanding, if medical records were anonymized it would allows great statistical analysis while allowing some players to save face. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Niply\_Elder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8e8cbc/32.png) [@The\_Niply\_Elder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Niply_Elder)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2015, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nfl-doesnt-make-much-sense-to-an-european/711855/95 "2015-02-06T17:16:28Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > [10 year old article.](http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2002624) > > I agree it’s flawed by using only BMI measurements. > Even Mr. Olympia level bodybuilders are “obese” on BMI charts. Yes totally agree. But realistically speaking if you put mr Olympia and an average lineman side by side with their shirt off the differences are visibly obvious. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2015, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nfl-doesnt-make-much-sense-to-an-european/711855/96 "2015-02-06T17:38:33Z")
> [@The\_Niply\_Elder](#): > > Nonsense. I realize that you have a hardon against soccer as evidenced by your posts in this thread. First, this isn’t true. I love soccer. I played it growing up and even catch a few Revs games from time to time. I’m hoping to see Liverpool at Fenway if they come this year. > [@](#): > > I’m objecting to common assumption that NFL teams can’t play more than 16ish games per year. The NFL could very well set up two tournaments per year. Two Super Bowls per year would be awesome. It just would be played by a different set of people that we have now. It would be a different game than the one they play now. The current NFL injuries are not due to fitness or extra weight. They are due to the jarring impacts implicit in a game where players that big, strong, and fast are hitting each other at full speed. If you want to eliminate the injuries you have regulate that out of the sport. Yes, there are positions that rely more on mass, and you’ll find higher bodyfat percentages among those. But the average NFL player is extremely fit. > [@](#): > > Can you imagine the embarrassment if players actual medical histories was published by the NFL? Patient confidentiality notwithstanding, if medical records were anonymized it would allows great statistical analysis while allowing some players to save face. What would you expect those records to show? What unhealthy metrics would you anticipate seeing? What specific injuries do you think are caused by poor cardiovascular health or high bodyfat percentage? The injury problem in the NFL and the extended season is not caused by the players healthy or unhealthy habits. It is a direct result of the type of play that is needed to win in the NFL, the fact that the players are bigger, faster, and stronger than ever; and the knowledge we’ve gained on head trauma. You put the fittest person in the world in pads and have them play a full NFL season and they’ll be banged up or worse. ---
**Author:** ![Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a183cd/32.png) [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barkis_is_Willin)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2015, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nfl-doesnt-make-much-sense-to-an-european/711855/97 "2015-02-06T18:12:25Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > American baseball (what you call “rounders”) is somewhat anarchic. The teams in larger markets make more money so they can afford to pay more for higher-caliber players. Seattle, Pittsburgh, Milwaukee, Toronto and the smaller markets have little chance to establish dynasties the way the Yankees have done, some may never even make it to the world series. I hope this isn’t hijacking too much, but this is just not true. Kansas City just went to the World Series last year. One could argue that San Francisco has the makings of a dynasty and they’re outside the top 10 MLB most populous cities even if you include Oakland. The exact opposite has been seen in baseball, with small market teams rising to playoff caliber (Tampa Bay, Pittsburgh, KC, Cincinnati, St. Louis, etc.). Meanwhile, the NFL playoffs typically feature the usual suspects. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2015, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nfl-doesnt-make-much-sense-to-an-european/711855/98 "2015-02-06T18:20:56Z")
> [@The\_Niply\_Elder](#): > > I realize that’s what you think, but only because of your lack of understanding of the laws of natural selection. If you actually bother to understand my post in its entirety, I clearly predict that the majority of the current crop of players would get injured and weeded out. In the long term only the fittest players would remain, and only players with that strength would be sought by teams. Your anecdotal evidence of some particular players getting injured or not is irrelevant. And it’s hard to comment on particular players health status, since the NFL only publishes weight and height, from which other people derive BMI averages and so on. If the NFL would publish the full health status of players including fat body percentage all this would be laid to rest, but of course they don’t want that as it would ruin the illusion of certain foolish people that think NFL players are healthy individuals. > > What I’m referring to is what happens in American Ninja Warrior for example, some of the challenges weed out the buff people right away, because even if you are buff that extra weight is a penalty and forces them out. You could say the same thing of other sports like swimming and cycling, people with unhealthy physiques are weeded out immediately. > > As it is right now, the rules of football have been tweaked such that obese players have time to rest and recover, so they can participate, if you slightly tweak the rules to up the intensity factor a bit, then all those injury prone players would be laid out flat on the field of a cardiac arrest. That will force managers to recruit actually healthy individuals if the team is to survive. So obviously along with the salary cap there would have to be a roster cap much lower than the current 175 bajillion player rosters they have. I’m sorry if you don’t understand this. This isn’t borne out by the facts. Larger players are not more injury prone than smaller players. Offensive linemen often have much longer careers than the ‘speed-based’ positions like RB and DB. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2015, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nfl-doesnt-make-much-sense-to-an-european/711855/99 "2015-02-06T18:23:02Z")
> [@The\_Niply\_Elder](#): > > Yes totally agree. But realistically speaking if you put mr Olympia and an average lineman side by side with their shirt off the differences are visibly obvious. And if you had them run sprints, or agility drills, or other tests of actual athleticism, the difference would be extremely obvious in favor of the NFL player. NFL players are, for the most part, freakishly strong and fast, whether big or small. The small ones tend to be faster, and the big ones stronger, but it’s absolutely ridiculous to claim that they are not good athletes. ---
**Author:** ![Red\_Wiggler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/red_wiggler/32/13190_2.png) [@Red\_Wiggler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Red_Wiggler)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2015, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nfl-doesnt-make-much-sense-to-an-european/711855/100 "2015-02-06T18:40:29Z")
> [@ISiddiqui](#): > > I’m quite confident that the minority is still tiny. College football would likely be the last place they’d institute it - the conferences are their own separate organizations who have poured over numbers to decide who to extend invitations to. They aren’t going to toss that away for pro/rel. In addition, there is NO WAY that a league like the Big 10 is going to be ok with either Ohio State or Michigan getting relegated due to a bad year, or Big 12 with Texas, etc. > > And I am confident we will not be seeing pro/rel in MLS in my lifetime. People have got to accept that in an American context, with American media contracts, pro/rel is a non-starter. Add to that the the 2nd tier (the new NASL) doesn’t even have a handful of teams that have stadiums that can seat 10,000. It would damage the league irrevocably and the slide into NASL collapse would commence. Conferences are roughly akin to franchise owners in that they have vested financial interests in the league structures. My question is why more American _fans_ don’t embrace the concept. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nfl-doesnt-make-much-sense-to-an-european/711855.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nfl-doesnt-make-much-sense-to-an-european/711855.md?page=6)