# The NFL doesn't make much sense to an European **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [February 5, 2015, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nfl-doesnt-make-much-sense-to-an-european/711855 "2015-02-05T01:23:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2015, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nfl-doesnt-make-much-sense-to-an-european/711855/101 "2015-02-06T18:51:53Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > And if any major American League instituted relegation, you can bet blood would be spilled in the commissioner’s office. Fans would eat him alive. More importantly we couldn’t do it anyway, since the minor league teams are for the most part, owned by the major league teams. In case you’re not aware, in pro baseball and hockey, there are several levels of minor league teams, just like in Europe. In baseball, they’re AAA, AA, A and Rookie, with multiple actual leagues within each level, and in some levels, the leagues correspond to the skill level (mostly A). But the Major League teams possess a vertical structure of teams that they develop players in. The Texas Rangers own the Round Rock Express in AAA, the Frisco Rough Riders in AA, the High Desert Mavericks in Advanced A (CA league), the Hickory Crawdads in A, Spokane Indians in Short-season A, the Arizona League and Dominican Summer League Rangers in Rookie. Essentially all the players for all those teams are somehow bound to the Texas Rangers organization, and can be moved between levels or laterally within a level at will. So if we had promotion and relegation, you could end up with strange situations like 2 NY Yankees teams in the major leagues, and 2 Houston Astros teams in AAA ball, which wouldn’t fly or make sense. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2015, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nfl-doesnt-make-much-sense-to-an-european/711855/102 "2015-02-06T18:55:08Z")
> [@Red\_Wiggler](#): > > Conferences are roughly akin to franchise owners in that they have vested financial interests in the league structures. My question is why more American _fans_ don’t embrace the concept. Because American fans wouldn’t be loyal to a league that drops their home teams due to poor performance. One you are in the majors as a fan you expect to stay there, even if your team is the Chicago Cubs or the Cleveland Indians or the Chicago White Sox or the Detroit Tigers or the Kansas City Royals or the Pittsburgh Pirates, all of which have had years-long periods of futility. ---
**Author:** ![AlsoNamedBort](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alsonamedbort/32/3213_2.png) [@AlsoNamedBort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlsoNamedBort)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2015, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nfl-doesnt-make-much-sense-to-an-european/711855/103 "2015-02-06T19:14:10Z")
> [@Sir\_T-Cups](#): > > 90% of the NFL games are shown on these broadcast networks, so they are essentially free for everyone to see. Monday Night Football and the relatively new Thursday Night Football are the only football games that are shown solely on cable (ESPN and NFL Network respectively). To tack on to this, for the cable games, they are also broadcast for free in the home market. So, living in Chicago, I don’t need ESPN to watch Monday Night Football when the Bears are playing. ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2015, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nfl-doesnt-make-much-sense-to-an-european/711855/104 "2015-02-06T19:16:35Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Because American fans wouldn’t be loyal to a league that drops their home teams due to poor performance. > > One you are in the majors as a fan you expect to stay there, even if your team is the Chicago Cubs or the Cleveland Indians or the Chicago White Sox or the Detroit Tigers or the Kansas City Royals or the Pittsburgh Pirates, all of which have had years-long periods of futility. Bingo. It’s a completely different mentality. Fans may not have financial interests in conferences, but they have emotional interests in conferences. Just look at any college football discussion - it invariably turns into people arguing about the worth of their conferences. This idea will apply to MLS as well. People aren’t going to be loyal to a league that will drop their favorite team to a lower conference that doesn’t get shown on ESPN (right after ESPN is actually going to be showing MLS more as well). People from Europe, or those who are used to European soccer, may see it as natural, but most US fans are not going to be fans of such things - esp since the MLS is a top down league and the vast majority of pro/rel leagues are bottom up - pro/rel created because there were too many teams to put in one conference. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Niply\_Elder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8e8cbc/32.png) [@The\_Niply\_Elder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Niply_Elder)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2015, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nfl-doesnt-make-much-sense-to-an-european/711855/105 "2015-02-06T19:16:49Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > It would be a different game than the one they play now. The current NFL injuries are not due to fitness or extra weight. They are due to the jarring impacts implicit in a game where players that big, strong, and fast are hitting each other at full speed. If you want to eliminate the injuries you have regulate that out of the sport. Yes, there are positions that rely more on mass, and you’ll find higher bodyfat percentages among those. But the average NFL player is extremely fit. > What would you expect those records to show? What unhealthy metrics would you anticipate seeing? What specific injuries do you think are caused by poor cardiovascular health or high bodyfat percentage? > > The injury problem in the NFL and the extended season is not caused by the players healthy or unhealthy habits. It is a direct result of the type of play that is needed to win in the NFL, the fact that the players are bigger, faster, and stronger than ever; and the knowledge we’ve gained on head trauma. You put the fittest person in the world in pads and have them play a full NFL season and they’ll be banged up or worse. Sorry but this is complete nonsense. The fitter smarter players would avoid injury on account of their ability to sidestep tackles altogether. The players who cause injury to others would suddenly find their coaches find their skills useless since they would be tactically out of the play action. My whole schpeel was to emphasize the cause and effect of game rules on outcomes. The outcome that we see now is a preponderance of obese players, thanks to how the rules of play have been crafted. If the medical records of players would be published I expect to see average body fat percentage near 30%, and a slew of diabetes and heart disease markers in the majority of players (and way above general population levels, which isn’t saying much anyway). Furthermore it is a statistical fact that football players have a life expectancy near third world country levels thanks to head trauma and unhealthy lifestyles after their careers are over. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2015, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nfl-doesnt-make-much-sense-to-an-european/711855/106 "2015-02-06T19:24:31Z")
> [@The\_Niply\_Elder](#): > > Sorry but this is complete nonsense. The fitter smarter players would avoid injury on account of their ability to sidestep tackles altogether. The players who cause injury to others would suddenly find their coaches find their skills useless since they would be tactically out of the play action. My whole schpeel was to emphasize the cause and effect of game rules on outcomes. The outcome that we see now is a preponderance of obese players, thanks to how the rules of play have been crafted. > > If the medical records of players would be published I expect to see average body fat percentage near 30%, and a slew of diabetes and heart disease markers in the majority of players (and way above general population levels, which isn’t saying much anyway). Furthermore it is a statistical fact that football players have a life expectancy near third world country levels thanks to head trauma and unhealthy lifestyles after their careers are over. Your expectations about things like “average body fat percentage” have nothing to do with the NFL in the real world. If “fitter” players avoided injury more often, then you’d expect that the smaller \<200 lbs players would have the lowest injury rates. There’s no data that suggests that is true. So far, your posts suggest a profound ignorance of American football. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2015, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nfl-doesnt-make-much-sense-to-an-european/711855/107 "2015-02-06T19:49:28Z")
> [@The\_Niply\_Elder](#): > > The fitter smarter players would avoid injury on account of their ability to sidestep tackles altogether. I think, more than any other quote of yours, this one shows you know next to nothing about NFL football. The fittest players in the NFL, say like Adrian Peterson or Rob Gronkowski, have lost seasons to injuries. And holding the concept that a fitter player could “sidestep tackles altogether” shows your ignorance of how the game is played. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2015, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nfl-doesnt-make-much-sense-to-an-european/711855/108 "2015-02-06T19:50:38Z")
And a profound ignorance of fitness, health , and injury. And rational argument. Your argument boils down to “if running backs and wide receivers were physically fit, then they would never be tackled, and thus, never injured.” Following that line of argument, if soccer players were fit, then a goalkeeper would never allow a goal to be scored. Because goals are scored, that proves that soccer players are unfit. Also, if soccer players were fit, then a striker would never make a kick that was blocked by a goalie. Because goalies block goal-attempts, that proves that soccer players are unfit. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2015, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nfl-doesnt-make-much-sense-to-an-european/711855/109 "2015-02-06T19:51:35Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > I think, more than any other quote of yours, this one shows you know next to nothing about NFL football. The fittest players in the NFL, say like Adrian Peterson or Rob Gronkowski, have lost seasons to injuries. And holding the concept that a fitter player could “sidestep tackles altogether” shows your ignorance of how the game is played. Right… it’s like he thinks that no coach in the NFL has thought “hey, if we just had a really quick guy, he might be able to avoid tackles!”, or that no NFL players have speed and agility. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2015, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nfl-doesnt-make-much-sense-to-an-european/711855/110 "2015-02-06T20:02:21Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Right… it’s like he thinks that no coach in the NFL has thought “hey, if we just had a really quick guy, he might be able to avoid tackles!”, or that no NFL players have speed and agility. No coach would dare seek out a healthier receiver, lest the public find out about their conspiracy to hide obesity among NFL players! Heck, what would be the point anyway? If you starting recruiting healthier receivers, who could run faster, then someone else would just start recruiting healthier defensive backs who could run faster, and then where would you be? ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2015, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nfl-doesnt-make-much-sense-to-an-european/711855/111 "2015-02-06T20:02:26Z")
> [@The\_Niply\_Elder](#): > > The fitter smarter players would avoid injury on account of their ability to sidestep tackles altogether. This is impossible. > [@](#): > > The players who cause injury to others would suddenly find their coaches find their skills useless since they would be tactically out of the play action. Since your premise is nonsense, this is nonsense. > [@](#): > > My whole schpeel was to emphasize the cause and effect of game rules on outcomes. The outcome that we see now is a preponderance of obese players, thanks to how the rules of play have been crafted. This is factually incorrect on several levels. > [@](#): > > If the medical records of players would be published I expect to see average body fat percentage near 30%, and a slew of diabetes and heart disease markers in the majority of players (and way above general population levels, which isn’t saying much anyway). Again, factually incorrect based on simple observation. > [@](#): > > Furthermore it is a statistical fact that football players have a life expectancy near third world country levels thanks to head trauma and unhealthy lifestyles after their careers are over. At last, a nugget of correctness amid a load of confusion. The head trauma is a real issue and one that is hopefully being addressed, or at least given more attention. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2015, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nfl-doesnt-make-much-sense-to-an-european/711855/112 "2015-02-06T20:05:21Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Right… it’s like he thinks that no coach in the NFL has thought “hey, if we just had a really quick guy, he might be able to avoid tackles!”, or that no NFL players have speed and agility. Picturing a team of “fit” players running circles around current NFL players and screaming “youuuu can’t tackle me” made me chuckle. It also reminded me of [this](http://www.sbnation.com/2015/1/27/7916937/breaking-madden-super-bowl-2015-seahawks-patriots). A guy played the Super Bowl on Madden with the most overpowered, over-skilled players against the wimpiest, dumbest guys in the world. Worth a chuckle. ---
**Author:** ![Sir\_T-Cups](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ed655f/32.png) [@Sir\_T-Cups](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sir_T-Cups)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2015, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nfl-doesnt-make-much-sense-to-an-european/711855/113 "2015-02-06T20:14:48Z")
> [@AlsoNamedBort](#): > > To tack on to this, for the cable games, they are also broadcast for free in the home market. So, living in Chicago, I don’t need ESPN to watch Monday Night Football when the Bears are playing. …wait really? Oh man this is news to me. Guess I’ve never been in the same market as my Packers so I didn’t know this. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2015, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nfl-doesnt-make-much-sense-to-an-european/711855/114 "2015-02-06T20:29:21Z")
**The Niply Elder** must have his tongue buried so far into his cheek that it’s coming out by his otic orifice. ---
**Author:** ![Lamar\_Mundane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lamar\_Mundane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamar_Mundane)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2015, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nfl-doesnt-make-much-sense-to-an-european/711855/115 "2015-02-06T20:29:27Z")
NFL coaches want their linemen to have weight and size, but not at the expense of agility. They want their lineman between 20-25% body fat. Average for an offensive lineman is between 21-24%. Super Bowl Champion New England Patriots left tackle Nate Solder was 6’9" and 315 lbs. when he came out of college. Body Fat %? 7.5%. ---
**Author:** ![RaftPeople](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@RaftPeople](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaftPeople)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2015, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nfl-doesnt-make-much-sense-to-an-european/711855/116 "2015-02-06T20:35:07Z")
> [@The\_Niply\_Elder](#): > > Sorry but this is complete nonsense. The fitter smarter players would avoid injury on account of their ability to sidestep tackles altogether. I’ve read some pretty dumb posts on this board over the years and this one certainly competes for one of the top 5. ---
**Author:** ![AlsoNamedBort](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alsonamedbort/32/3213_2.png) [@AlsoNamedBort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlsoNamedBort)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2015, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nfl-doesnt-make-much-sense-to-an-european/711855/117 "2015-02-06T20:38:12Z")
> [@Sir\_T-Cups](#): > > …wait really? > > Oh man this is news to me. Guess I’ve never been in the same market as my Packers so I didn’t know this. Yep. It pretty much cleared the last hurdle for me to cancel cable when I moved. ---
**Author:** ![AlsoNamedBort](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alsonamedbort/32/3213_2.png) [@AlsoNamedBort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlsoNamedBort)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2015, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nfl-doesnt-make-much-sense-to-an-european/711855/118 "2015-02-06T20:40:39Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Right… it’s like he thinks that no coach in the NFL has thought “hey, if we just had a really quick guy, he might be able to avoid tackles!”, or that no NFL players have speed and agility. It’s the “Better Off Dead” method of coaching: “Go that way really fast. If something gets in your way, turn.” ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Nemo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@Captain\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2015, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nfl-doesnt-make-much-sense-to-an-european/711855/119 "2015-02-06T20:55:20Z")
Well this is surely a lot more complex than what I was honestly expecting. Each year the Italian Federation awards a yummy contract to broadcast in pay-TV all league matches: since the system’s inception, Sky Italia has done this. Plus, they usually pay and obtain most if not all other matches, from international qualifiers to foreign tournaments, including all the Champions League. However, 50% of Champions League matches by Italian teams are also broadcasted free by a concurring private platform, Mediaset, which can also show a selection of league (Serie A) matches on its pay-TV channel. Since these are usually the best and most followed teams’ games, it’s usually more cost-effective to subscribe Mediaset than Sky. Domestic cup games are shown for free by the State TV, Rai. By law, every match of the national team (plus a series of other sporting events, from the Olympics to the Monza F1 race) must also be broadcasted by Rai. This is all moot if you can use a PC, though. Any match can be readily found in streaming, usually ripped from obscure Caucasian or Arab TVs. Or you can just turn on the radio for some old-fashioned but still excellent radio commentary. I can’t tell about other sports, but I can hardly picture soccer being caged in a NFL-like cycling system. It’s a sport which tends naturally to establish a hierarchy; plus, if the United States adopt a completely different approach it will inevitably means that their teams will get crushed as soon as they exit the fifty states. Indeed even they fail to shine even in a modest tournament such as the CONCACAF Champions League (with such powers as Mexico, Honduras and Canada). You’ve got to promote excellence to reach excellence level. This also reflects on the US national team… I’m sorry to say, but the American reports of the Round of 16 about the USMNT being a squad of fearless lions brought down only with great fatigue by a mighty Belgian team were completely bogus. It was a mediocre match saved only by Tim Howard’s performance and shabby initial Belgian attack - and remember, the less shots a goalkeeper has to save, the better his defenders are. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2015, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nfl-doesnt-make-much-sense-to-an-european/711855/120 "2015-02-06T21:01:07Z")
> [@Captain\_Nemo](#): > > I can’t tell about other sports, but I can hardly picture soccer being caged in a NFL-like cycling system. It’s a sport which tends naturally to establish a hierarchy; plus, if the United States adopt a completely different approach it will inevitably means that their teams will get crushed as soon as they exit the fifty states. The goal of the NFL, NBA, MLB, and NHL is to have all the world’s best players playing on the franchises in their leagues. The concept of playing outside the league is extremely unimportant. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nfl-doesnt-make-much-sense-to-an-european/711855.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nfl-doesnt-make-much-sense-to-an-european/711855.md?page=7)