# The "Nice Guy" Logical Fallacy
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nice-guy-logical-fallacy/650903
**Category:** In My Humble Opinion
**Created:** [February 20, 2013, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nice-guy-logical-fallacy/650903 "2013-02-20T20:48:05Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@AnthonyElite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AnthonyElite)
#### Post date: [February 20, 2013, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nice-guy-logical-fallacy/650903/1 "2013-02-20T20:48:05Z")
I have a friend who is a real nice guy and he can’t figure out why women don’t like him. I honestly think I understand why women don’t like “nice” guys and, best of all, I think that most women will agree with my assessment.
A nice guy sees a pretty woman and initiates his typical nice guy material. He may hold the door open for her, compliment her looks, etc etc.
To the nice guy this seems smart; aren’t women always complaining that they can’t find a decent guy?
Yes.
Aren’t you, in turn, being a nice guy by doing these things?
No.
You are simply doing them because you find the woman attractive and see that as the most efficient and effective route to date her. Would you be acting the same exact “nice guy” way if she were not attractive? No. She knows it, women around you know it, and deep down you know it too.
Is that being nice? Classy? No, a nice guy would simply do these things because they are nice indescriminately.
You cannot perform services in exchange for attraction. That is fundamentally prostitution.
If that doesn’t help you, imagine this. The woman is a fishing. She doesn’t want the fish flopping on the shore, hell I don’t mind if I don’t catch anything half the day, I just want a few good ones that were a struggle.
---
### Author:  [@hotflungwok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hotflungwok)
#### Post date: [February 20, 2013, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nice-guy-logical-fallacy/650903/2 "2013-02-20T20:51:24Z")
> [@](#):
>
> If that doesn’t help you, imagine this. The woman is a fishing. She doesn’t want the fish flopping on the shore, hell I don’t mind if I don’t catch anything half the day, I just want a few good ones that were a struggle.
😕
---
### Author:  [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)
#### Post date: [February 20, 2013, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nice-guy-logical-fallacy/650903/3 "2013-02-20T20:57:10Z")
Agreed. We are not machines in which you dispense kindness tokens and get sex.
---
### Author:  [@DiosaBellissima](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DiosaBellissima)
#### Post date: [February 20, 2013, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nice-guy-logical-fallacy/650903/4 "2013-02-20T21:01:29Z")
> [@Anaamika](#):
>
> Agreed. We are not machines in which you dispense kindness tokens and get sex.
Wait-- what? I thought if a guy listens to you complain about what a douche your ex is, you’re obligated to then blow that male friend to completion? And if he listens more than three different times, you have to swallow.
Isn’t that standard practice??? 😕
---
### Author:  [@Zebra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zebra)
#### Post date: [February 20, 2013, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nice-guy-logical-fallacy/650903/5 "2013-02-20T21:01:53Z")
An authentic nice guy would hold the door for women regardless if he wanted to bone them.
---
### Author:  [@FasterThanMeerkats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FasterThanMeerkats)
#### Post date: [February 20, 2013, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nice-guy-logical-fallacy/650903/6 "2013-02-20T21:01:57Z")
> [@AnthonyElite](#):
>
> A nice guy sees a pretty woman and initiates his typical nice guy material. He may hold the door open for her, compliment her looks, etc etc…
>
> … Would you be acting the same exact “nice guy” way if she were not attractive? No. She knows it, women around you know it, and deep down you know it too.
Maybe you should take a tour of the South, where good manners are not limited to attractive women. Of course, it makes it really hard to stand out when every guy opens the door for every girl. :dubious:
---
### Author:  [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)
#### Post date: [February 20, 2013, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nice-guy-logical-fallacy/650903/7 "2013-02-20T21:03:39Z")
Yeah, if he’s doing it for self-serving purposes\*, he’s not a nice guy, by any definition other than his own.
\*Ultimately, it can be argued that there’s no such thing as altruism - even if you’re nice to everyone, you’re only doing it to satisfy some internal desire - that’s not what I mean though.
---
### Author:  [@Incubus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Incubus)
#### Post date: [February 20, 2013, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nice-guy-logical-fallacy/650903/8 "2013-02-20T21:03:40Z")
I’m suprised these Nice Guys never think to act super Nice to people around the girl they like, such as her homely sister, or other platonic guy friends. It never occurs to them how transparent their efforts are. Other people in her life are invisible (if women) or competition (if men) to the Nice Guy.
---
### Author:  [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)
#### Post date: [February 20, 2013, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nice-guy-logical-fallacy/650903/9 "2013-02-20T21:06:41Z")
It’s not only women for whom doors can be held open (especially if they only open one way, and you’re on the '‘pull’ side), and compliments can be given etc.
---
### Author:  [@AnthonyElite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AnthonyElite)
#### Post date: [February 20, 2013, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nice-guy-logical-fallacy/650903/10 "2013-02-20T21:07:58Z")
FasterThanMeerkats I am living in Georgia, the Gentleman’s South 😛
And I agree with you, my theory hinges on that very idea: someone who is legitimately nice would open doors for everyone, so you aren’t actually being nice.
---
### Author:  [@Incubus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Incubus)
#### Post date: [February 20, 2013, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nice-guy-logical-fallacy/650903/11 "2013-02-20T21:08:35Z")
> [@Mangetout](#):
>
> Yeah, if he’s doing it for self-serving purposes\*, he’s not a nice guy, by any definition other than his own.
>
> \*Ultimately, it can be argued that there’s no such thing as altruism - even if you’re nice to everyone, you’re only doing it to satisfy some internal desire - that’s not what I mean though.
That may be true, but if a guy is doing the act (opening doors, holding an umbrells over them, giving blood, etc) consistently to many people, man and woman, cute and fugly alike then their efforts are much more sincere.
---
### Author:  [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)
#### Post date: [February 20, 2013, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nice-guy-logical-fallacy/650903/12 "2013-02-20T21:12:52Z")
> [@Incubus](#):
>
> That may be true, but if a guy is doing the act (opening doors, holding an umbrells over them, giving blood, etc) consistently to many people, man and woman, cute and fugly alike then their efforts are much more sincere.
Agreed. Even more so if he’s doing it without continually pleading that he’s such a Nice Guy.
---
### Author:  [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)
#### Post date: [February 20, 2013, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nice-guy-logical-fallacy/650903/13 "2013-02-20T21:17:34Z")
> [@FasterThanMeerkats](#):
>
> Maybe you should take a tour of the South, where good manners are not limited to attractive women. Of course, it makes it really hard to stand out when every guy opens the door for every girl. :dubious:
:rolleyes: I am sick unto death of this meme that only Southerners are nice and polite and have manners. I could tell you stories about Southerners so-called “niceness” that would make your ears wilt. But I know the truth: people are people, everywhere they go, and north or south doesn’t automatically make them polite.
- Anaamika, proud Northerner.
---
### Author:  [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)
#### Post date: [February 20, 2013, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nice-guy-logical-fallacy/650903/14 "2013-02-20T21:19:09Z")
> [@AnthonyElite](#):
>
> Would you be acting the same exact “nice guy” way if she were not attractive? No.
And what if the answer is yes? Guys who are just decent and nice to everybody, what’s to become of them?[sup]\*[/sup]
- By which I mean us.
---
### Author:  [@tomcar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomcar)
#### Post date: [February 20, 2013, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nice-guy-logical-fallacy/650903/15 "2013-02-20T21:20:25Z")
> [@Anaamika](#):
>
> Agreed. We are not machines in which you dispense kindness tokens and get sex.
That is indeed a design flaw 🙂
---
### Author:  [@H3Knuckles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/H3Knuckles)
#### Post date: [February 20, 2013, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nice-guy-logical-fallacy/650903/16 "2013-02-20T21:21:58Z")
While it doesn’t use the phrase “Nice Guy” [this chainsawsuit strip](http://chainsawsuit.com/2012/08/06/the-friend-zone/) about the “friend zone” is a fairly accurate portrayal of the fallacy, I think. Also, read the write-up underneath for more. The fallacy basically reduces to “men thinking that they are entitled to attention from a woman because they desire her, rather than thinking about what she wants.”
> [@Robot\_Arm](#):
>
> And what if the answer is yes? Guys who are just decent and nice to everybody, what’s to become of them?[sup]\*[/sup]
>
> - By which I mean us.
Well, they’re _actually_ nice, and thus excluded from this subject. The whole point is that women can generally tell the difference fairly quickly, and what they want is genuine, not artificial, niceness.
---
### Author:  [@AnthonyElite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AnthonyElite)
#### Post date: [February 20, 2013, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nice-guy-logical-fallacy/650903/17 "2013-02-20T21:21:59Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#):
>
> And what if the answer is yes? Guys who are just decent and nice to everybody, what’s to become of them?[sup]\*[/sup]
>
> - By which I mean us.
If they are in fact being nice to everybody, legitimately, then what are they doing to make themselves noticed? And in turn, what is it about that particular woman that has you interested? There is nothing wrong with it being entirely physical; but do you offer anything in the realm of physical?
---
### Author:  [@Incubus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Incubus)
#### Post date: [February 20, 2013, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nice-guy-logical-fallacy/650903/18 "2013-02-20T21:24:02Z")
I think Nice Guy syndrome is a symptom of Giving Tree syndrome- people who give and give hoping for some idealized situation that never comes. I see this happen on a platonic level with people trying to “impress” friends with generosity in time and things, then getting upset their efforts were not reciprocated (or being so desperate for attention/validation that they settle for whatever attention they can get in return, hence like the Giving Tree).
It also occurs to me that Nice Guys don’t ask for genuine favors from the object of desire. Nor are they willing to say ‘No’ to unreasonable requests. I guess they associate these things with jerkish behavior. But personally, I don’t find it unreasonable to ask for favors in return for ones given. What Nice Guys don’t seem to see is having an exchange like this helps build bonds with people.
---
### Author:  [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)
#### Post date: [February 20, 2013, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nice-guy-logical-fallacy/650903/19 "2013-02-20T21:27:27Z")
> [@AnthonyElite](#):
>
> If they are in fact being nice to everybody, legitimately, then what are they doing to make themselves noticed?
What does this question mean? What if they’re not especially interested in making themselves noticed?
---
### Author:  [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)
#### Post date: [February 20, 2013, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nice-guy-logical-fallacy/650903/20 "2013-02-20T21:28:00Z")
> [@DiosaBellissima](#):
>
> Wait-- what? I thought if a guy listens to you complain about what a douche your ex is, you’re obligated to then blow that male friend to completion? And if he listens more than three different times, you have to swallow.
>
> Isn’t that standard practice??? 😕
Srsly. This friend zone shit pisses me off. As if being “friends” with a girl is the worst thing ever.
[Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nice-guy-logical-fallacy/650903.md?page=2)