# The "Nice Guy" Logical Fallacy **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [February 20, 2013, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nice-guy-logical-fallacy/650903 "2013-02-20T20:48:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![phouka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c5a1d2/32.png) [@phouka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/phouka)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2013, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nice-guy-logical-fallacy/650903/21 "2013-02-20T21:35:05Z")
Yeah, I don’t really get the analogy either, but then, I’m not big into fishing. There are other parts to the Nice Guy phenomenon that I’ve noticed: - Nice Guys feel like they are _owed_ a relationship. By whom, I don’t know, but when a Nice Guy isn’t in a relationship, he resents women who are. Their relationship choices aren’t valid because they aren’t with _him_. - He thinks being nice is worthy of a major award, when in reality, it’s the bare minimum to start a conversation and certainly not enough on its own to merit consideration. - He lacks empathy for women because to him, they are merely objects, accessories if you will, to prove he has attained a certain respectability and desirable lifestyle. ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2013, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nice-guy-logical-fallacy/650903/22 "2013-02-20T21:35:18Z")
> [@Incubus](#): > > I think Nice Guy syndrome is a symptom of Giving Tree syndrome- people who give and give hoping for some idealized situation that never comes. I see this happen on a platonic level with people trying to “impress” friends with generosity in time and things, then getting upset their efforts were not reciprocated (or being so desperate for attention/validation that they settle for whatever attention they can get in return, hence like the Giving Tree). > > It also occurs to me that Nice Guys don’t ask for genuine favors from the object of desire. Nor are they willing to say ‘No’ to unreasonable requests. I guess they associate these things with jerkish behavior. But personally, I don’t find it unreasonable to ask for favors in return for ones given. What Nice Guys don’t seem to see is having an exchange like this helps build bonds with people. I don’t think Nice Guy and doormat are the same thing. The Nice Guy requires the sense of entitlement. I mean, maybe I am a Nice Guy, I don’t know, but I’m sadly almost definitely a doormat. I don’t expect anything in return for doing things for people, but I just feel really guilty whenever I ask a friend for something, and feel even worse if I have to turn down performing a favor for them. Hell, I’ve felt guilty asking a groupmate to DO THEIR JOB on school projects when I technically could do it myself. But, and again, maybe I am a Nice Guy and don’t know it, I don’t feel like I’m “owed” anything. I just can’t get past the guilt I feel when I don’t do what other people want or try to make other people do what I want. I mean, if we’re hanging out I can make requests that we do a certain thing, but asking for favors? No way. > [@Anaamika](#): > > Srsly. This friend zone shit pisses me off. As if being “friends” with a girl is the worst thing ever. Not that I support Nice Guys or anything, but I don’t think it’s being friends with an **arbitrary** girl that they complain about. It’s that they’re only friends with the **specific** girl they want more from. Nice Guys take it too far and act entitled, yeah, but I don’t think I’m ready to throw the entire concept of being bummed because of unrequited feelings under the bus. ---
**Author:** ![Incubus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c68b51/32.png) [@Incubus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Incubus)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2013, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nice-guy-logical-fallacy/650903/23 "2013-02-20T21:35:59Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > Srsly. This friend zone shit pisses me off. As if being “friends” with a girl is the worst thing ever. Their problem is these guys treat being friendzoned like its some lame consolation prize. Frankly they don’t seem like they would make good friends anyway. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2013, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nice-guy-logical-fallacy/650903/24 "2013-02-20T21:37:30Z")
So, what _would_ you girls accept for sex? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2013, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nice-guy-logical-fallacy/650903/25 "2013-02-20T21:38:15Z")
> [@AnthonyElite](#): > > If they are in fact being nice to everybody, legitimately, then what are they doing to make themselves noticed? And in turn, what is it about that particular woman that has you interested? There is nothing wrong with it being entirely physical; but do you offer anything in the realm of physical? I wasn’t thinking of any one woman in particular. ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2013, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nice-guy-logical-fallacy/650903/26 "2013-02-20T21:39:52Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > So, what _would_ you girls accept for sex? 😃 All the girls I know gave me sex after I gave them the sweet embrace of death. … Okay, wow, that was way too dark even for me. ---
**Author:** ![Ferret\_Herder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e47774/32.png) [@Ferret\_Herder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferret_Herder)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2013, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nice-guy-logical-fallacy/650903/27 "2013-02-20T21:41:05Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > What does this question mean? What if they’re not especially interested in making themselves noticed? Well, if you don’t actually **want** to date that woman, then you’re all good. But if you did, you need to do more than just be an averagely decent human. ---
**Author:** ![AnthonyElite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b487fb/32.png) [@AnthonyElite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AnthonyElite)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2013, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nice-guy-logical-fallacy/650903/28 "2013-02-20T21:43:17Z")
I’ll explain the fishing thing thusly; I go fishing to be alone, or with a buddy, in the quiet peaceful stillness of the lake. If I catch a fish, neat, if not that’s just fine. It isn’t the ends, its the means. If a woman is looking for love she is looking for just that; the experience, the process…the love. Love the verb. Meanwhile nice guy is saying: Theres a fish right here on the fucking river bank LETS GO HOME AND EAT IT, NOW! They wouldn’t let something as foolish as love get in the way of a cold hard deal. ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2013, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nice-guy-logical-fallacy/650903/29 "2013-02-20T21:45:55Z")
> [@Jragon](#): > > Not that I support Nice Guys or anything, but I don’t think it’s being friends with an **arbitrary** girl that they complain about. It’s that they’re only friends with the **specific** girl they want more from. Nice Guys take it too far and act entitled, yeah, but I don’t think I’m ready to throw the entire concept of being bummed because of unrequited feelings under the bus. I am. At least after a while. Ok, so you fall in love with a girl. She doesn’t love you. So you decide being a doormat and doing everything she wants will make her love you. Then you complain about being “friendzoned” even though she might not even know you are into her. it’s at that point that I get annoyed. If the relationship is not where you want it to be, move on. I understand angsting about it for a little bit but do not sit there and tell me that you are owed a damn thing from a woman. There are about a gazillion other women out there. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2013, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nice-guy-logical-fallacy/650903/30 "2013-02-20T21:46:03Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > Srsly. This friend zone shit pisses me off. As if being “friends” with a girl is the worst thing ever. Well, the “Nice Guy” shit is starting to piss me off. As if every act of kindness or consideration must be evidence of someone deeply self-serving and hypocritical. It’s rather like the War on Christmas. I don’t see anyone here saying, or acting like they’re entitled to a romantic relationship because they treat a woman with kindness. I see a lot of people complaining about how many guys think that way. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2013, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nice-guy-logical-fallacy/650903/31 "2013-02-20T21:49:23Z")
> [@Ferret\_Herder](#): > > Well, if you don’t actually **want** to date that woman, then you’re all good. But if you did, you need to do more than just be an averagely decent human. Ah, got it. I’m fairly sure there isn’t a single formulaic answer to this question, but asking her out for a date could be one solution. ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2013, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nice-guy-logical-fallacy/650903/32 "2013-02-20T21:54:23Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > Well, the “Nice Guy” shit is starting to piss me off. As if every act of kindness or consideration must be evidence of someone deeply self-serving and hypocritical. > > It’s rather like the War on Christmas. I don’t see anyone here saying, or acting like they’re entitled to a romantic relationship because they treat a woman with kindness. I see a lot of people complaining about how many guys think that way. While some people may be saying it or coming off that way…I really don’t see it on the Dope that often. Around the Interwebs, though, the concept of the “Friend Zone” is ubiquitous. My SO is a good man. He’s honest and he has integrity and yadda yadda yadda. He would never call himself a “nice guy”. I don’t really know many people who call themselves a “nice person”. I wouldn’t ever say that about myself. I am decent and kind and compassionate, but saying “nice” really doesn’t say much about me. What does “nice” mean, anyway? It’s lost its meaning if it ever had one. What attribute is it? Open doors for women? You should be opening doors for everyone, and that’s just manners. ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2013, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nice-guy-logical-fallacy/650903/33 "2013-02-20T21:55:05Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > Well, the “Nice Guy” shit is starting to piss me off. As if every act of kindness or consideration must be evidence of someone deeply self-serving and hypocritical. > > It’s rather like the War on Christmas. I don’t see anyone here saying, or acting like they’re entitled to a romantic relationship because they treat a woman with kindness. I see a lot of people complaining about how many guys think that way. It’s really only the guys who make the Friend Zone complaint who get the derision. Until or unless someone expresses romantic intentions towards me, I assume anyone doing favors for me is just an awesome human being who does nice things for everyone. ---
**Author:** ![Airk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9de053/32.png) [@Airk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airk)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2013, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nice-guy-logical-fallacy/650903/34 "2013-02-20T21:56:02Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > Well, the “Nice Guy” shit is starting to piss me off. As if every act of kindness or consideration must be evidence of someone deeply self-serving and hypocritical. > > It’s rather like the War on Christmas. I don’t see anyone here saying, or acting like they’re entitled to a romantic relationship because they treat a woman with kindness. I see a lot of people complaining about how many guys think that way. Yup. And I think that comic, while humorous, actually has it totally wrong. Speaking as a self-imagined “nice guy”, I’ve never ONCE felt “entitled” to ANYTHING. If anything, it’s the reverse - this “I guess I’m not good enough” sort of feeling that you get even though, odds are, you PROBABLY never even asked her out, so your status of “good enough” or not never even gets evaluated. 😉 There’s also the fine line between “charming and gentlemanly” and “bland and overly agreeable” 😛 ---
**Author:** ![R3d\_Anonymous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/aeb1de/32.png) [@R3d\_Anonymous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/R3d_Anonymous)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2013, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nice-guy-logical-fallacy/650903/35 "2013-02-20T21:59:26Z")
I honestly don’t really give a shit about whether women want to date “nice guys” or not. I don’t let it stop me from being nice because in my opinion, the ones who reject a guy for being nice aren’t really worth it anyways. :rolleyes: I just go by the, “Just be yourself,” rule and don’t let anyone change me. ---
**Author:** ![Face\_Intentionally\_Left\_Blank](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/face_intentionally_left_blank/32/288_2.png) [@Face\_Intentionally\_Left\_Blank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Face_Intentionally_Left_Blank)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2013, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nice-guy-logical-fallacy/650903/36 "2013-02-20T22:06:02Z")
What definition of “nice guy” are we working with here, because I don’t recognize it. ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2013, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nice-guy-logical-fallacy/650903/37 "2013-02-20T22:10:27Z")
Entitled, embittered, self-proclaimed nice guy who regularly criticizes his rivals and whines about his inability to win the attention of women. Often complains he’s been put in the friend zone. ---
**Author:** ![MeanOldLady](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/meanoldlady/32/10737_2.png) [@MeanOldLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MeanOldLady)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2013, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nice-guy-logical-fallacy/650903/38 "2013-02-20T22:11:22Z")
> [@Incubus](#): > > I’m suprised these Nice Guys never think to act super Nice to people around the girl they like, such as her homely sister, or other platonic guy friends. It never occurs to them how transparent their efforts are. Other people in her life are invisible (if women) or competition (if men) to the Nice Guy. Right? Listen up, dumb fucks, nice people are nice to everyone, not just to the thing with the boobs that laughs a lot. ---
**Author:** ![nate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nate/32/13085_2.png) [@nate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nate)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2013, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nice-guy-logical-fallacy/650903/39 "2013-02-20T22:26:57Z")
In my experience, no girl wants to be unconditionally liked and admired all the time by some dude. It’s just no fun, and she knows that she’s not perfect and doesn’t want the bother of someone thinking she is and having to pretend to live up to that. We all have flaws and it’s nothing but a jerk-off to put someone on a pedestal to try to win them over. Be real and honestly critical, and call her out on her BS when appropriate. Knights in shining armor only exist in fairy tales and 80s teen movies and should probably stay there. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2013, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nice-guy-logical-fallacy/650903/40 "2013-02-20T22:29:59Z")
> [@Troppus](#): > > It’s really only the guys who make the Friend Zone complaint who get the derision. That’s reading an awful lot into a two-word phrase, don’t you think? There are women I’ve been romantically interested in, but who weren’t interested in anything more than friendship with me. I’m still friends with some of them years later. Never have I said that’s a bad thing, just that it might not be all I would have liked. I don’t think I’ve ever used the phrase “friend zone”, but I can see it expressing disappointment without implying entitlement to anything more. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nice-guy-logical-fallacy/650903.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nice-guy-logical-fallacy/650903.md?page=3)