# The "Nice Guy" Logical Fallacy **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [February 20, 2013, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nice-guy-logical-fallacy/650903 "2013-02-20T20:48:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Face\_Intentionally\_Left\_Blank](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/face_intentionally_left_blank/32/288_2.png) [@Face\_Intentionally\_Left\_Blank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Face_Intentionally_Left_Blank)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2013, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nice-guy-logical-fallacy/650903/41 "2013-02-20T22:31:54Z")
> [@Troppus](#): > > Entitled, embittered, self-proclaimed nice guy who regularly criticizes his rivals and whines about his inability to win the attention of women. Often complains he’s been put in the friend zone. So, pretty much the opposite of a nice guy then. ---
**Author:** ![Kaio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c68b51/32.png) [@Kaio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kaio)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2013, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nice-guy-logical-fallacy/650903/42 "2013-02-20T23:30:56Z")
> [@AnthonyElite](#): > > He may hold the door open for her, compliment her looks, etc etc. These are not the things that cause me to be attracted to someone, anyway. Interaction should not be a binary choice between “it’s all about me” and “let’s put the woman on a pedestal.” Mutual interests would be a good place to start. > [@](#): > > I just want a few good ones that were a struggle. Yeaahhh… not that either. I don’t want a struggle. Who wants a relationship that causes more stress than being single? > [@Anaamika](#): > > Agreed. We are not machines in which you dispense kindness tokens and get sex. Pithy and brilliant. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Rachellelogram](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rachellelogram/32/8689_2.png) [@Rachellelogram](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rachellelogram)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2013, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nice-guy-logical-fallacy/650903/43 "2013-02-20T23:32:25Z")
> [@Zebra](#): > > An authentic nice guy would hold the door for women regardless if he wanted to bone them. Yup. This is one time where being a fat chick is highly advantageous. It’s easy for me to see which guys are genuinely polite and which ones are only putting on a show for hot girls. It’s not a bad idea for a hot chick to bring along a trusted fat/ugly wingman to the club with her. Helps filter out the pond scum. ---
**Author:** ![JohnClay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c37758/32.png) [@JohnClay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnClay)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2013, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nice-guy-logical-fallacy/650903/44 "2013-02-21T00:14:28Z")
> [@Rachellelogram](#): > > Yup. This is one time where being a fat chick is highly advantageous. It’s easy for me to see which guys are genuinely polite and which ones are only putting on a show for hot girls. It’s not a bad idea for a hot chick to bring along a trusted fat/ugly wingman to the club with her. Helps filter out the pond scum. A PUA would probably pay more attention to the uglier girl to mess with the hot chick’s mind. ---
**Author:** ![Ferret\_Herder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e47774/32.png) [@Ferret\_Herder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferret_Herder)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2013, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nice-guy-logical-fallacy/650903/45 "2013-02-21T00:55:49Z")
> [@JohnClay](#): > > A PUA would probably pay more attention to the uglier girl to mess with the hot chick’s mind. Fortunately once the PUA starts negging either of them, you can eliminate him as the idiot he is. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2013, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nice-guy-logical-fallacy/650903/46 "2013-02-21T00:59:21Z")
A “nice” guy thinks he deserves a hot chick because he does nice things while completely ignoring the millions of women who would kill for a guy who truly believes being nice is the only thing that matters. ---
**Author:** ![zweisamkeit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zweisamkeit/32/4360_2.png) [@zweisamkeit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zweisamkeit)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2013, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nice-guy-logical-fallacy/650903/47 "2013-02-21T02:55:48Z")
> [@Face\_Intentionally\_Left\_Blank](#): > > So, pretty much the opposite of a nice guy then. Well, yeah. That’s the whole point! ---
**Author:** ![phouka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c5a1d2/32.png) [@phouka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/phouka)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2013, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nice-guy-logical-fallacy/650903/48 "2013-02-21T03:22:54Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > Well, the “Nice Guy” shit is starting to piss me off. As if every act of kindness or consideration must be evidence of someone deeply self-serving and hypocritical. > > It’s rather like the War on Christmas. I don’t see anyone here saying, or acting like they’re entitled to a romantic relationship because they treat a woman with kindness. I see a lot of people complaining about how many guys think that way. We’re kind of a self-selected crowd here on the Dope. Self Described Nice Guys who whine about women tend to get hammered flat very quickly. Certainly, not every act of kindness is hypocritical. In fact, most of them are not. With the SDNG, however, you can count on them being so. I’ll give you a for instance: Fifteen years ago, or so, I had a male friend I really enjoyed spending time with. He introduced me to his D&D group, we worked on some projects together. Early on, he started making some quasi-romantic gestures that I didn’t read clearly. Just as I was starting to get a clue, I find out he’s got a longtime girlfriend. I give him the stink eye. He behaves himself. Until his best friend moves to town and we start dating and then move in. After I set up with boyfriend, my so-called friend openly propositions me. I say “hell, no, and if you ask me again, we’re not friends anymore.” Six months later, he asks me again, and I break off the friendship. My boyfriend asks pretty please, won’t I please be friend’s friend again? Fine. I’ll at least speak to him. I manage to be civil. He manages to behave like a human being. A few months later, boyfriend has fallen into a deep depression and starts talking about how he wishes he was dead. I contact friend by email and tell him what’s going on - you know, that I’m afraid his best friend might kill himself. The response I got back was, I shit you not, “_I am tired of always being there for you, and you never being there for me. If you were really my friend you would have given me what I wanted. Don’t ask me for help again, unless you’re willing to come through._” I shit you not. I hadn’t even gotten to the part where I was going to ask him to lock up the guns so boyfriend couldn’t take one. That, **Robot Arm** , is what we’re talking about when it comes to Nice Guy Syndrome. I found out later that so-called friend had indeed been complaining about being “Friendzoned” by me. While he was still with his girlfriend. While his best friend was my boyfriend. You’ll understand why I run screaming from any man who starts to pout about his “unrequited love”. ---
**Author:** ![Rala](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@Rala](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rala)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2013, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nice-guy-logical-fallacy/650903/49 "2013-02-21T04:52:06Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > Srsly. This friend zone shit pisses me off. As if being “friends” with a girl is the worst thing ever. [Relevant comic](http://considertheteacosy.wordpress.com/2013/01/02/the-friend-zone/). ---
**Author:** ![DiosaBellissima](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a8b319/32.png) [@DiosaBellissima](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DiosaBellissima)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2013, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nice-guy-logical-fallacy/650903/50 "2013-02-21T05:14:59Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > Well, the “Nice Guy” shit is starting to piss me off. As if every act of kindness or consideration must be evidence of someone deeply self-serving and hypocritical. As a 27 year old woman with a profile on a dating website, I can’t tell you how many guys message me and freak the fuck out from the get go, talking about how I am beautiful but probably only want douchebags in big trucks who are going to abuse me. They _lead_ with that. My profile says I like to travel and enjoy watching BBC News-- not that I like UFC fights and my fake titties- so IDK what I’m giving off that makes them think I’m like that. The other day, I was browsing profiles- just going from page to page, reading and looking at everybody. I didn’t message anyone because I was just sort of surfing. The next day, [this happened.](http://25.media.tumblr.com/ec30dc44ca8a1e1b37a4d493ebf01e44/tumblr_mi8x52nwit1s22q2do1_1280.jpg) And that shit happens _all the time._ ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2013, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nice-guy-logical-fallacy/650903/51 "2013-02-21T05:35:05Z")
> [@DiosaBellissima](#): > > My profile says I like to travel and enjoy watching BBC News Yeah, you wanna be a train a watch Big Bad Cocks. What are they missing?😕😕😕 Ow, I really need to stop thinking like an insane person. It’s going to become my default state of being some day. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2013, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nice-guy-logical-fallacy/650903/52 "2013-02-21T05:37:18Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > It’s not only women for whom doors can be held open (especially if they only open one way, and you’re on the '‘pull’ side), and compliments can be given etc. But younger women are the only ones likely to complain if you do. > [@Anaamika](#): > > Srsly. This friend zone shit pisses me off. As if being “friends” with a girl is the worst thing ever. It’s regarded as bad because it’s regarded as dismissive, a demotion. You know; the cliche is the guy in the “friend zone” is the one surrounded with female friends who complain to him about how awful their boyfriends are, while _he’s_ alone. Although from the comments I see from women in threads like this, perhaps the real delusion of a man who is “friend zoned” is that those women are friends at all. ---
**Author:** ![epbrown01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7ba0ec/32.png) [@epbrown01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/epbrown01)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2013, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nice-guy-logical-fallacy/650903/53 "2013-02-21T05:42:12Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > There are women I’ve been romantically interested in, but who weren’t interested in anything more than friendship with me. I’m still friends with some of them years later. Never have I said that’s a bad thing, just that it might not be all I would have liked. I don’t think I’ve ever used the phrase “friend zone”, but I can see it expressing disappointment without implying entitlement to anything more. What you’re missing is WHY you never used the “friendzoned” phrase - guys that are actually friends with a woman/women don’t use it - only someone who was trying to use friendship as an in for sex, like the “nice guys.” Personally, my recommendation is if someone gives a person the “I just want to be friends” speech, get out. Someone that was just being nice and letting you down easy will say “whew!” and move on. A woman that actually wants to be friends will pursue a friendship. (She will eventually try to fix you up with someone - pass. Seriously, pass - always.) And be prepared to abort the friendship if it turns out she’s a crappy friend. What would be really sleazy, though, is becoming her friend under the false pretense of still trying to get laid. Not only would a nice guy not do that, a wretched excuse for a man wouldn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2013, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nice-guy-logical-fallacy/650903/54 "2013-02-21T06:11:13Z")
> [@phouka](#): > > We’re kind of a self-selected crowd here on the Dope. Self Described Nice Guys who whine about women tend to get hammered flat very quickly. Certainly, not every act of kindness is hypocritical. In fact, **most of them are not**. I find that phrase I bolded somewhat interesting. I have not encountered the sense of entitlement that so many posters here are describing. And if, indeed, most acts of kindness are not hypocritical, is that an admission that the “Nice Guys” that folks are complaining about are a vocal minority that are ruining things for the rest of us? Where is a nice guy (no caps) supposed to seek reassurance and advice if the well has already been poisoned by the whiny few? > [@](#): > > I’ll give you a for instance: > > Fifteen years ago, or so, I had a male friend… (Truncated for the sake of brevity.) All I can say is that I’ve never run across someone like that. Seems to depart from the classic Nice Guy pattern a bit, though. His act of faux niceness to win you over was to pursue you when he already had a girlfriend. And rather than linger as your insincere friend, he seems to have been the one to cut it off (at the worst possible time, it seems), which advice was given earlier in this thread. > [@DiosaBellissima](#): > > The other day, I was browsing profiles- just going from page to page, reading and looking at everybody. I didn’t message anyone because I was just sort of surfing. The next day, [this happened.](http://25.media.tumblr.com/ec30dc44ca8a1e1b37a4d493ebf01e44/tumblr_mi8x52nwit1s22q2do1_1280.jpg) I’m not sure that’s the kind of guy this thread is supposed to be about. He does raise an interesting point, though; that message did elicit a reply from you. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2013, 6:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nice-guy-logical-fallacy/650903/55 "2013-02-21T06:28:39Z")
> [@epbrown01](#): > > What you’re missing is WHY you never used the “friendzoned” phrase - guys that are actually friends with a woman/women don’t use it - only someone who was trying to use friendship as an in for sex, like the “nice guys.” Well, I tend not to glom on to other people’s catch phrases. I might use it if I’d thought of it first, but then I could have defined it as I wished, without all the insincere baggage that seems to be attached. > [@](#): > > Personally, my recommendation is if someone gives a person the “I just want to be friends” speech, get out. Someone that was just being nice and letting you down easy will say “whew!” and move on. A woman that actually wants to be friends will pursue a friendship. (She will eventually try to fix you up with someone - pass. Seriously, pass - always.) And be prepared to abort the friendship if it turns out she’s a crappy friend. > > What would be really sleazy, though, is becoming her friend under the false pretense of still trying to get laid. Not only would a nice guy not do that, a wretched excuse for a man wouldn’t. I don’t know if we can assume that the friendship is always a false pretense. I still remember a snippet of conversation I had years ago. We had some mutual friends who were having a rocky patch in their marriage, and she said “the problem is when people get married to someone that they wouldn’t even really be friends with.” (Or words to that effect.) That seemed to describe an alien concept to me, and it still does. I’ve never pretended to be friends with someone as a pretext for pursuing a romantic relationship. I can’t imagine why I’d want a relationship with someone I didn’t even like. ---
**Author:** ![DiosaBellissima](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a8b319/32.png) [@DiosaBellissima](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DiosaBellissima)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2013, 6:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nice-guy-logical-fallacy/650903/56 "2013-02-21T06:35:43Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > I’m not sure that’s the kind of guy this thread is supposed to be about. He does raise an interesting point, though; that message did elicit a reply from you. When I saw his profile, he gave up stereotypical “nice guy complex” red flags, so I didn’t want to message him or date him. When he messaged me being a douche, I told him to fuck off and still didn’t want to date him. When he acted superior to me I still didn’t want to date me. But sure, I’m sure he can go tell his buddies all about the mean sluts on OKC who only want douchebags and not genuine catches like him. That’s the fun thing about a martyr complex. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2013, 6:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nice-guy-logical-fallacy/650903/57 "2013-02-21T06:45:46Z")
> [@DiosaBellissima](#): > > When I saw his profile, he gave up stereotypical “nice guy complex” red flags, so I didn’t want to message him or date him. When he messaged me being a douche, I told him to fuck off and still didn’t want to date him. When he acted superior to me I still didn’t want to date me. Sounds like a run-of-the-mill jerk to me. Still doesn’t quite support the premise of this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2013, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nice-guy-logical-fallacy/650903/58 "2013-02-21T12:16:51Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Although from the comments I see from women in threads like this, perhaps the real delusion of a man who is “friend zoned” is that those women are friends at all. Well, this, exactly. Except it’s likely that the women didn’t initiate the relationship, so why should he go all sour grapes on them and blame them for his frustration? Personal anecdotes probably aren’t the most reliable data, but it’s easier to spell out than taking great pains to write in the third person. Since my late twenties, I’ve worked in the technology industry with huge office and a high turnover rate. In the last fifteen years, no less than 100 guys have come on strong and most haven’t been shy about expressing anger or bitter disappointment when I say I’m not interested. I may find the guy to be agreeable, smart, or pleasant to be around, but in fifteen years I’ve only been attracted to one co-worker who I had a lot in common with. Thing is, these guys make the decision to court me based on the way I look alone (average) and assign all sorts of expectations without ever bothering to find out anything about me. During the course of getting to know the new coworker, I’ll find out that he is a level 51 WOW dwarf, sells home built desktops, is a die-hard Star Wars fan, collects action figures, and stays up all night online gaming. He rarely bothers to find out my hobbies and interests. But on the rare occasion when he does ask a few questions, I’ll tell him that I’m a paddler, a hiker, and a gardener who prefers physical activity and the outdoors. I have no interest in a romantic relationship with a guy who is proud of the fact that the sun never touches his skin; I wouldn’t for a second entertain the idea that I could turn an indoor techie into a mountain man. His expectation that I’ll change everything about who I am in order to accommodate his crush and flesh out his fantasy is absurd. No, it’s _infuriating_. There is absolutely nothing _nice_ about a guy who lays such unreasonable expectations on women he has nothing in common with and wouldn’t actually like if he didn’t want to have sex with her. And I haven’t even mentioned physical attraction. I should be able to turn down a date without having to dance around and pen a 10 page dissertation on why I don’t see him as anything more than a friend. If he made the decision to come on strong based on my looks alone, I should be able to reject his advances based on his looks alone without getting cornered by protests of why and but Gimme a chance, Ima nice guy!!1! So what should we say to a harmless, generally pleasant guy we aren’t attracted to? Let’s be friends is the best I can offer. You have a better idea? Share it. Women would love to have an alternate way of declining attention that spares the feelings of someone who doesn’t give a shit about ours. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2013, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nice-guy-logical-fallacy/650903/59 "2013-02-21T13:21:54Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > But younger women are the only ones likely to complain if you do. This doesn’t happen to me often, if at all. Sometimes I get no acknowledgement at all (which is fine by me), but I reckon I must be old and fugly enough by now that nobody thinks I can possibly be entertaining any ulterior motive when I do something nice. ---
**Author:** ![Incubus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c68b51/32.png) [@Incubus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Incubus)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2013, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nice-guy-logical-fallacy/650903/60 "2013-02-21T13:45:49Z")
Robot Arm, understand that this whole “Nice Guy” phenomenon is not a rational line of thinking. You seem to have a hard time believing this to exist, because you neither understand it nor witnessed it. You’ve dismissed many other posters’ examples of Nice Guy behavior even though there’s definitely a consensus on the SDMB that 1.) It exists, 2.) Its an annoying, irrational behavior some guys exhibit, and 3.) It doesnt mean a guy acting genuinely nice to people is going to be judged as a “Nice Guy”. If you accept that Nice Guy mindset is irrational, you can put aside your Vulcan Logic about whether or not it exists and accept its one of those stupid, counter-intuitive things some guys do. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nice-guy-logical-fallacy/650903.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nice-guy-logical-fallacy/650903.md?page=4)