# The "Nice Guy" Logical Fallacy **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [February 20, 2013, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nice-guy-logical-fallacy/650903 "2013-02-20T20:48:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2013, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nice-guy-logical-fallacy/650903/61 "2013-02-21T13:51:44Z")
There is a valid use of the “Friend Zone” phrase – if you are romantically interested in someone, and pursue a friendship with them. Then, when you make your romantic interest known, they claim that they don’t want to ruin your friendship by pursuing romance. While this may or may not be a lie to conceal the fact that they’re just not that into you, and there may or may not have been valid reasons to conceal your interest in the first place (i.e. the other person had an SO when you first met them,) it would be perfectly accurate to say that you’ve been “friendzoned”. ---
**Author:** ![Incubus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c68b51/32.png) [@Incubus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Incubus)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2013, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nice-guy-logical-fallacy/650903/62 "2013-02-21T14:01:18Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > There is a valid use of the “Friend Zone” phrase – if you are romantically interested in someone, and pursue a friendship with them. Then, when you make your romantic interest known, they claim that they don’t want to ruin your friendship by pursuing romance. While this may or may not be a lie to conceal the fact that they’re just not that into you, and there may or may not have been valid reasons to conceal your interest in the first place (i.e. the other person had an SO when you first met them,) it would be perfectly accurate to say that you’ve been “friendzoned”. While I agree this definitely happens, I dont think its really “friendzone” because you were originally friends with the person without any expectation of a relationship. People need to be realistic about their expectations. If a woman says, “I’m just not into you that way” the man needs to accept it and not try to pester her into changing her mind. Men bitch about friendzoning because they have a hard time wrapping their head around that a woman can be friends with guys she doesn’t want to screw. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2013, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nice-guy-logical-fallacy/650903/63 "2013-02-21T14:03:52Z")
I know one guy who is exactly as described. Claims to be a nice guy but is really a bitter misogynist who refuses to do anything to make himself more attractive to women. That’s one guy. I know many guys who are good guys who are not happy with the fact that women to more for the smooth assholes they know than them. Throwing all them into the Nice Guy Syndrome category is just a way to wave off the fact that women can be as shallow about looks as men are. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2013, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nice-guy-logical-fallacy/650903/64 "2013-02-21T14:05:17Z")
Truely nice guys are nice because they like doing nice things for others. I don’t think that’s arguable. Being nice to get laid is a turnoff. That said, I personal prefer when a guy isn’t _indiscriminately_ nice. This is why I like cats more than dogs. The latter is affectionate with anyone who gives them attention. Although this makes them pleasant to be around, you don’t get the sense that you’ve done anything special to win them over. With cats, you get a personality who is a bit indifferent (but not mean) towards most people, but with intimates they are sweet and attentive. Because they target their niceness towards a special few, you have more assurance that they are nice to you because they actually care and not because being nice to random humanity is an inherent part of their personality (and I’m not suggesting that this is bad thing). I feel this point of view needs to be represented in this thread, lest someone think all women are attracted to the same kind of nice guy. \*I’m grossly generalizing about cats and dogs. One of my cats loves to snuggle with everyone, and I don’t love her any less for that. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2013, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nice-guy-logical-fallacy/650903/65 "2013-02-21T14:13:42Z")
> [@Incubus](#): > > People need to be realistic about their expectations. If a woman says, “I’m just not into you that way” the man needs to accept it and not try to pester her into changing her mind. Men bitch about friendzoning because they have a hard time wrapping their head around that a woman can be friends with guys she doesn’t want to screw. This is true if you assume that men are monolithic. But while it’s certainly understandable from a woman’s perspective to not come out and say that, because _some guys_ might not accept it or fly off the handle if they’re not deflected diplomatically, other guys who wouldn’t still bear the brunt of this by not being able to tell if the woman truly thinks the friendship too valuable to risk ruining or if she just doesn’t like him that way (of course it can be a bit of both.) So one guy being realistic about his expectations will not change human behavior. Now, it is partially one’s own fault if you enter a non romantic friendship while not revealing your feelings until later (even if you also genuinely desire a friendship.) However, this only goes if the other person is not attached. I give a pass to those who wait until the other person is single to reveal feelings for the other person, because that just ups the awkward factor by several times. ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2013, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nice-guy-logical-fallacy/650903/66 "2013-02-21T14:18:46Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > I know one guy who is exactly as described. Claims to be a nice guy but is really a bitter misogynist who refuses to do anything to make himself more attractive to women. That’s one guy. \*\*I know many guys who are good guys who are not happy with the fact that women to more for the smooth assholes they know than them. \*\*Throwing all them into the Nice Guy Syndrome category is just a way to wave off the fact that women can be as shallow about looks as men are. Bolding mine Making judgment calls about people you don’t know and discounting her taste and decision making ability is misogynistic. If a guy I find attractive dates women who obviously put a lot of time and money into looks, i.e. artificial nails and tan, complicated hair, expensive labels, clothing selected to attract attention, then I just accept the fact that the comparatively low maintenance me wouldn’t be a good match for his tastes. I don’t label the beautiful girls he seems attracted to “bitches”, I don’t discount his taste in women, I don’t make shitty comments about his interest in “shallow beauty queens”. I recognize the fact that he’s attracted to a different type of woman and I move on. Labeling rivals assholes (or abusers, dicks, insert the perjorative of your choice here) is petty and bitter. If a guy truly likes her, why would he say things like that about her? It isn’t productive to make snap judgments about the quality of her dates or relationships and it makes the speaker look very small. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2013, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nice-guy-logical-fallacy/650903/67 "2013-02-21T15:07:54Z")
> [@Troppus](#): > > Bolding mine > > Making judgment calls about people you don’t know and discounting her taste and decision making ability is misogynistic. If a guy I find attractive dates women who obviously put a lot of time and money into looks, i.e. artificial nails and tan, complicated hair, expensive labels, clothing selected to attract attention, then I just accept the fact that the comparatively low maintenance me wouldn’t be a good match for his tastes. I don’t label the beautiful girls he seems attracted to “bitches”, I don’t discount his taste in women, I don’t make shitty comments about his interest in “shallow beauty queens”. I recognize the fact that he’s attracted to a different type of woman and I move on. Labeling rivals assholes (or abusers, dicks, insert the perjorative of your choice here) is petty and bitter. If a guy truly likes her, why would he say things like that about her? It isn’t productive to make snap judgments about the quality of her dates or relationships and it makes the speaker look very small. Meh, some men bitch and moan that women they are interested in won’t go for “nice guys” like them; some women bitch and moan that guys they are interested in are all self-absorbed jerks who treat them badly. Part of the “nice guy’s” litany of complaint is that the women - let’s call them “nice women” - are bitching and moaning about guys being assholes, and so why don’t they go for them, the “nice guys”, who aren’t assholes? Of course the part the “nice guys” are missing, is: (a) that the “nice women” are only bitching and moaning about guys they are attracted to - assholes (or not) that don’t turn their crank are simply of no interest to them in that way anyway; and (b) that the “nice guys” maybe, just maybe, aren’t really as “nice” as they think they are - perhaps they are just self-entitled jerks themselves. Also (c) - maybe (just maybe) the “nice women” are themselves not very nice, and in some cases, they are not exactly as accurate about the ‘all guys they are interested in being jerks’ thing as they assume. It could be that if every guy a woman has a relationship with is a “jerk” according to her, what’s really going on is that the woman is simply not that easy to be in a relationship with. Or it could be that she just is attracted to jerks. All are just observations of some common patterns of behaviour in bitching and moaning about the opposite sex in which people tend to assume the best of themselves (hence the use of “nice” in scare quotes) and I would not say that noticing them displays any hatred of women or men. Fortunately, I’m happily married, and can be nice (or not) without any of this having direct personal significance to me. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2013, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nice-guy-logical-fallacy/650903/68 "2013-02-21T15:12:32Z")
> [@Troppus](#): > > I’ve worked in the technology industry with huge office and a high turnover rate. In the last fifteen years, no less than 100 guys have come on strong and most haven’t been shy about expressing anger or bitter disappointment when I say I’m not interested…During the course of getting to know the new coworker, I’ll find out that he is a level 51 WOW dwarf, sells home built desktops, is a die-hard Star Wars fan, collects action figures, and stays up all night online gaming. I find it difficult to believe that anyone fitting this description would have trouble getting girls. ---
**Author:** ![epbrown01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7ba0ec/32.png) [@epbrown01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/epbrown01)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2013, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nice-guy-logical-fallacy/650903/69 "2013-02-21T15:16:43Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > I don’t know if we can assume that the friendship is always a false pretense. In this case, we can. The “nice guy” claiming to have been “friend-zoned” pretty much had an ulterior motive from the jump. My point above is that real friends don’t use the term, which describes a type of rejection rather than an actual relationship. ---
**Author:** ![phouka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c5a1d2/32.png) [@phouka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/phouka)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2013, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nice-guy-logical-fallacy/650903/70 "2013-02-21T15:17:45Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > I find that phrase I bolded somewhat interesting. I have not encountered the sense of entitlement that so many posters here are describing. And if, indeed, most acts of kindness are not hypocritical, is that an admission that the “Nice Guys” that folks are complaining about are a vocal minority that are ruining things for the rest of us? Where is a nice guy (no caps) supposed to seek reassurance and advice if the well has already been poisoned by the whiny few? Unfortunately, it’s not a whiny few. It’s a large subsection of the population (though not nearly as large a percentage on the Dope). It’s enough men that even those of us who don’t attract much male attention _still_ have to deal with it. **Troppus** describes up to a hundred different men over the course of a decade. While my stats are nowhere near as high, I’d say half to two-thirds of the men I deal with in a romantic/sexual context start planting big, red, Nice Guy warning flags within the first two conversations. If I started a thread asking just for personal anecdotes of Nice Guys claiming Friendzones, it would go to pages. It would be a BIG help if you and other self-described “no, really, I’m a genuinely nice person and decent guy” would stop trying to convince us that it’s really not that bad. I realize this means that you might have to consider your own behavior and actions, and I sympathize if this makes you uncomfortable. But the fact that you’d be willing to do so pretty much takes you out of the Nice Guy camp. ---
**Author:** ![Incubus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c68b51/32.png) [@Incubus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Incubus)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2013, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nice-guy-logical-fallacy/650903/71 "2013-02-21T15:18:11Z")
Only level 51? Pfff, frickin’ casuals 😛 No wonder you weren’t into him! ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2013, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nice-guy-logical-fallacy/650903/72 "2013-02-21T15:33:19Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > I find it difficult to believe that anyone fitting this description would have trouble getting girls. But he can! Plenty of women in the same profession who share the same hobbies and habits. And if they gave an _actual_ damn about the women they set their sights on, they’d consider her wants and needs, too and stick to women they have something in common with. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2013, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nice-guy-logical-fallacy/650903/73 "2013-02-21T18:05:33Z")
> [@Incubus](#): > > Robot Arm, understand that this whole “Nice Guy” phenomenon is not a rational line of thinking. You seem to have a hard time believing this to exist, because you neither understand it nor witnessed it. You’ve dismissed many other posters’ examples of Nice Guy behavior even though there’s definitely a consensus on the SDMB that 1.) It exists, 2.) Its an annoying, irrational behavior some guys exhibit, and 3.) It doesnt mean a guy acting genuinely nice to people is going to be judged as a “Nice Guy”. > > If you accept that Nice Guy mindset is irrational, you can put aside your Vulcan Logic about whether or not it exists and accept its one of those stupid, counter-intuitive things some guys do. It’s not that I don’t believe it exists, rather 1.) I haven’t personally seen it, 2.) the descriptions seem to be assuming motivations that aren’t necessarily there, and 3.) the more widespread people think this is, the more they’ll assume they’re seeing it. > [@phouka](#): > > Unfortunately, it’s not a whiny few. It’s a large subsection of the population (though not nearly as large a percentage on the Dope). It’s enough men that even those of us who don’t attract much male attention still have to deal with it. Troppus describes up to a hundred different men over the course of a decade. While my stats are nowhere near as high, I’d say half to two-thirds of the men I deal with in a romantic/sexual context start planting big, red, Nice Guy warning flags within the first two conversations. If I started a thread asking just for personal anecdotes of Nice Guys claiming Friendzones, it would go to pages. > > It would be a BIG help if you and other self-described “no, really, I’m a genuinely nice person and decent guy” would stop trying to convince us that it’s really not that bad. I realize this means that you might have to consider your own behavior and actions, and I sympathize if this makes you uncomfortable. But the fact that you’d be willing to do so pretty much takes you out of the Nice Guy camp. That sounds rather like “be quiet while the grown-ups are talking”, or that if I disagree with you I must be the very sort of person you’re complaining about. I don’t accept that. I don’t expect to convince you of anything if your own experience tells you otherwise, but I think my posts on this board are as valid as anyone else’s, and I won’t stop sharing my views just for your convenience. ---
**Author:** ![phouka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c5a1d2/32.png) [@phouka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/phouka)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2013, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nice-guy-logical-fallacy/650903/74 "2013-02-21T19:35:49Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > That sounds rather like “be quiet while the grown-ups are talking”, or that if I disagree with you I must be the very sort of person you’re complaining about. I don’t accept that. I don’t expect to convince you of anything if your own experience tells you otherwise, but I think my posts on this board are as valid as anyone else’s, and I won’t stop sharing my views just for your convenience. I need to ask a question for clarification. **Robot Arm** , are you a straight man, a gay man, a straight woman, or a gay woman? After that, let me know when I’ve told you to be quiet or stop sharing your views. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2013, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nice-guy-logical-fallacy/650903/75 "2013-02-21T19:44:53Z")
> [@phouka](#): > > I need to ask a question for clarification. > > **Robot Arm** , are you a straight man, a gay man, a straight woman, or a gay woman? A straight man. > [@](#): > > After that, let me know when I’ve told you to be quiet or stop sharing your views. > [@phouka](#): > > It would be a BIG help if you and other self-described “no, really, I’m a genuinely nice person and decent guy” would stop trying to convince us that it’s really not that bad. ---
**Author:** ![rhubarbarin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/eb9ed0/32.png) [@rhubarbarin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rhubarbarin)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2013, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nice-guy-logical-fallacy/650903/76 "2013-02-21T20:24:26Z")
I dislike that we as a culture have started using ‘Nice Guy’ in place of ‘passive-aggressive jerk’. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2013, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nice-guy-logical-fallacy/650903/77 "2013-02-21T20:44:56Z")
> [@Troppus](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > Although from the comments I see from women in threads like this, perhaps the real delusion of a man who is “friend zoned” is that those women are friends at all. > > Well, this, exactly. Except it’s likely that the women didn’t initiate the relationship, so why should he go all sour grapes on them and blame them for his frustration? For one thing, because the implication that the guy who beats her or cheats on her is still more desirable than her “friend” is rather insulting. Especially given all the effort women have put into pushing the idea that they are less shallow than men, and care more about what you _are_ like than what you _look_ like. “I just don’t find you physically attractive” would be less offensive than the implication that she finds him morally and intellectually inferior to a thug. And of course you are ignoring all the times the woman did initiate the relationship. > [@Troppus](#): > > Making judgment calls about people you don’t know and discounting her taste and decision making ability is misogynistic. But of course, it’s perfectly reasonable to broadly condemn men who call themselves nice guys on a message board, or are even said by third parties to have used the phrase about themselves. :rolleyes: > [@Malthus](#): > > Also (c) - maybe (just maybe) the “nice women” are themselves not very nice, and in some cases, they are not exactly as accurate about the ‘all guys they are interested in being jerks’ thing as they assume. It could be that if every guy a woman has a relationship with is a “jerk” according to her, what’s really going on is that the woman is simply not that easy to be in a relationship with. Or it could be that she just is attracted to jerks. _“The common factor in all of your failed relationships is you”_, yeah. It applies to women just as much as men. > [@rhubarbarin](#): > > I dislike that we as a culture have started using ‘Nice Guy’ in place of ‘passive-aggressive jerk’. It lets women put men in a no-win situation. If they act nice they are scum, and if they _don’t_ act nice they are scum. ---
**Author:** ![DiosaBellissima](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a8b319/32.png) [@DiosaBellissima](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DiosaBellissima)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2013, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nice-guy-logical-fallacy/650903/78 "2013-02-21T20:49:47Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > It lets women put men in a no-win situation. If they act nice they are scum, and if they _don’t_ act nice they are scum. If you actually think it’s as simple as that, then you’ve definitely missed the point. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2013, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nice-guy-logical-fallacy/650903/79 "2013-02-21T21:00:01Z")
> [@DiosaBellissima](#): > > If you actually think it’s as simple as that, then you’ve definitely missed the point. Or I just don’t agree with it. No, I don’t buy the idea that only scummy men call themselves nice guys. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2013, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nice-guy-logical-fallacy/650903/80 "2013-02-21T21:01:48Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > That sounds rather like “be quiet while the grown-ups are talking”, or that if I disagree with you I must be the very sort of person you’re complaining about. I don’t accept that. I don’t expect to convince you of anything if your own experience tells you otherwise, but I think my posts on this board are as valid as anyone else’s, and I won’t stop sharing my views just for your convenience. You can post when and where you want but if you want to be taken seriously, it’s probably best not to mansplain to women how they’re misreading a significant number of casual encounters with men, especially when, by your own admittance, you are not usually in a place to experience this behavior first hand. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nice-guy-logical-fallacy/650903.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nice-guy-logical-fallacy/650903.md?page=5)