# The "Nice Guy" Logical Fallacy **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [February 20, 2013, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nice-guy-logical-fallacy/650903 "2013-02-20T20:48:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2013, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nice-guy-logical-fallacy/650903/141 "2013-02-24T01:15:15Z")
> [@MeanOldLady](#): > > Is this kind of desperate, sad behavior actually common in women though? The way the pathetic sad Nice Guy bit is ubiquitous among men? I mean, sure, there are sad women in the world, but this only happens with a small number of _the_ saddest women there are. We’ve all probably known one woman like this on our lives, but we’ve known one bajillion guys who behave this way. “Nice guys” are attracted to women, and annoy them. This, their existence is more noticable, particularly to women. The female equivalent I would say is the “all men are pigs!” whiner. They are less annoying, because they are not actually attracted to you. You may know one or more, but they won’t be going out of their way to bring themselves to your attention. ---
**Author:** ![MeanOldLady](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/meanoldlady/32/10737_2.png) [@MeanOldLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MeanOldLady)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2013, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nice-guy-logical-fallacy/650903/142 "2013-02-24T03:23:28Z")
Dudes, yeah, we’ve all heard the “Men are pigs/only want one thing” lament before, but I typically hear that from women after having tried to talk to a man like a human being and it becomes pretty clear he’s not interested in her chit chat, or I’ll hear women complain after going on a few dates, sleeping with a guy, then suddenly reveals he’s not interested in a relationship, as if he didn’t know that before he slept with her. What I don’t hear is women starting a relationship with a man that is purely sexual from the start and then being aghast that he doesn’t want to marry her. I don’t remember what people used to complain about in high school, but I’ve only known one adult woman who was this way, and everybody thinks she’s retarded. Now I readily admit I’m likely more exposed to men’s horse shit because women aren’t trying to date me, but I’d like to make clear I’m not suggesting women whiners are some kind of anomaly. What I’m saying is this specific brand of whininess – the “Well I blew him within five hours of knowing him. Why isn’t he in love with me?” – has been virtually non-existent in my adult life. The men are pigs thing isn’t new (hell, I used to whine about that a lot when I was 19), but I’ve almost never heard it out of women surprised that sleeping with someone right away didn’t result in an engagement ring. Have you? ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2013, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nice-guy-logical-fallacy/650903/143 "2013-02-24T03:55:56Z")
I haven’t seen it in my friends, but we’re pretty savvy about dating. But aging, divorced, and lonely co-workers with body image issues and low self-esteem seem to lead with the boobs and offer themselves up for approval immediately. Low hanging fruit is easy to pluck. Then, when the satisfied guy bounces on to the next divorcee, she complains that he’s only after one thing. Well, you used that one thing to lure him in, used his attention to plump up your ego, and made zero attempt to get to know each other. So yeah, I think it’s common for a certain subset of women who fancy themselves ready for casual sex and one night stands then lose it when the guys don’t call. The Men Are Pigs battlecry and the Ima Nice Guy lament are one and the same IMO. Weasley, blame-shifting and equally offensive ways of expressing anger because someone else didn’t flesh out your fantasies. ---
**Author:** ![MeanOldLady](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/meanoldlady/32/10737_2.png) [@MeanOldLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MeanOldLady)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2013, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nice-guy-logical-fallacy/650903/144 "2013-02-24T04:49:32Z")
Excessive italics alert ahead! > [@Troppus](#): > > So yeah, I think it’s common for a certain subset of women who fancy themselves ready for casual sex and one night stands then lose it when the guys don’t call. _But how common is this subset though?_ Extremely _un_? Particularly when compared with the percentage of men who do the “But I hold open doors, so she should fuck me” crowd? I feel like people are addressing a point I’m not making. I was originally responding to one specific post, saying there’s a negligibly small number of women who think an immediate boink means she deserves the guy to fall in love with her. So small it’s not even worth talking about. Even those butthurt women angry that he didn’t call after a one night romp aren’t actually be upset that he doesn’t want a _relationship_. They’re just butthurt that he didn’t call. Sure, I suppose there exist some women who are, but they’re a tiny minority so small in my experience that they shouldn’t even come up in conversation. There is \*not \*a negligibly small number of men who whine about how not being an asshole hasn’t resulted in the downpour of vaginas they were expecting. You can’t throw a dart without hitting one of those guys. So yes, there are blame-shifting whiners of any gender, but this very specific brand of loser is oh _so_ much rarer than the male “And I didn’t even stare at her tits!” thing. Si o no? Shit, I kept editing and re-editing to get what I’m saying right, but I’m just goign to leave it as is, as I’m now late to the bar because I’m arguing with people on the internet. This is even sadder than the time I was late because I was watching “To Catch a Predator.” ---
**Author:** ![Hershele\_Ostropoler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e47c2d/32.png) [@Hershele\_Ostropoler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hershele_Ostropoler)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2013, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nice-guy-logical-fallacy/650903/145 "2013-02-24T05:16:43Z")
> [@Anonymous User](#): > > Is there really indeed, no way to get into a romantic relationship with the person in question after getting friend-zoned? Probably, as **Jragon** said. But that doesn’t mean you can’t get into a romantic relationship with anyone, unless you choose to instead devote your energy to this one unattainable person. > [@even\_sven](#): > > Women do not need to explain or justify this. We are under no obligation to date out of charity. That’s the big fallacy, that a woman is a system that can be gamed. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2013, 9:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nice-guy-logical-fallacy/650903/146 "2013-02-24T09:36:59Z")
It’s not necessarily quick sex and its probably not one night stands. But plenty of women put a lot of effort into various forms of non-relationships out of hope that it will morph into romance. It’s the audience for “He’s just not that in to you.” I do think we tend to wise up pretty quickly. Maybe it’s because we are less likely to have those long, bitterness inducing unwanted dry spells. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2013, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nice-guy-logical-fallacy/650903/147 "2013-02-24T16:17:11Z")
> [@MeanOldLady](#): > > Dudes, yeah, we’ve all heard the “Men are pigs/only want one thing” lament before, but I typically hear that from women after having tried to talk to a man like a human being and it becomes pretty clear he’s not interested in her chit chat, or I’ll hear women complain after going on a few dates, sleeping with a guy, then suddenly reveals he’s not interested in a relationship, as if he didn’t know that before he slept with her. What I don’t hear is women starting a relationship with a man that is purely sexual from the start and then being aghast that he doesn’t want to marry her. I don’t remember what people used to complain about in high school, but I’ve only known one adult woman who was this way, and everybody thinks she’s retarded. > > Now I readily admit I’m likely more exposed to men’s horse shit because women aren’t trying to date me, but I’d like to make clear I’m not suggesting women whiners are some kind of anomaly. What I’m saying is this specific brand of whininess – the “Well I blew him within five hours of knowing him. Why isn’t he in love with me?” – has been virtually non-existent in my adult life. The men are pigs thing isn’t new (hell, I used to whine about that a lot when I was 19), but I’ve almost never heard it out of women surprised that sleeping with someone right away didn’t result in an engagement ring. Have you? Yeah, that specific sub-type is less common. Maybe moreso in previous eras, but not so much now. I can’t think of a one, anecdotally. I think “nice guy” sort of entitlement is better matched with the “men are pigs” whine - it’s the sort of thing many young men are prone to at 19 so to speak, that most mature out of, and that the ones that don’t are particularly noticable later in life (by women) because they are annoying and attracted to them. It really all boils down to a kind of immature bitching about the behaviour of opposite sex. Male bitching tends to be more obnoxious, not because males are more prone to bitching, but simply because for whatever social reason, the expectation is in our society that men are supposed to initiate dating - and so their bitching and self-entitled behaviour is naturally going to be more noticable to members of the opposite sex, who are going to have it drawn more forcefully to their attention as it were. ---
**Author:** ![MeanOldLady](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/meanoldlady/32/10737_2.png) [@MeanOldLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MeanOldLady)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2013, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nice-guy-logical-fallacy/650903/148 "2013-02-24T18:07:27Z")
Fair enough. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2013, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nice-guy-logical-fallacy/650903/149 "2013-02-24T20:58:14Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Being open and yet clear about your intentions is acting nice, and I doubt many women would consider this evil. Which is different from accepting an invitation. My daughters never thought ill of men who were interested and said so, and never thought these people were being obnoxious. Not even ones they were not the slightest bit interested in. > > BTW, my observation is that young women today are way beyond being offended at having doors help open for them. When I was in college, at the dawn of women’s liberation, it was a lot more common, but there was a lot more obnoxiousness for them to react to. I’m 40, regularly hold doors open for women and others and haven’t once had anyone get upset at me. Maybe back in the early 70s it was an issue, but that was a long time ago. Beyond that, I really don’t get some of the whining I’m hearing from some men in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2013, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nice-guy-logical-fallacy/650903/150 "2013-02-24T21:01:57Z")
I’m also a bit amused by the suggestion that only men get “friend-zoned”. I’ve known plenty of women who were including at least one by me. I wasn’t being a jerk, just not interested in having a romantic relationship. ---
**Author:** ![CanvasShoes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/74df32/32.png) [@CanvasShoes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CanvasShoes)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2013, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nice-guy-logical-fallacy/650903/151 "2013-02-24T21:07:53Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > Well, I tend not to glom on to other people’s catch phrases. I might use it if I’d thought of it first, but then I could have defined it as I wished, without all the insincere baggage that seems to be attached. > > I don’t know if we can assume that the friendship is always a false pretense. I still remember a snippet of conversation I had years ago. We had some mutual friends who were having a rocky patch in their marriage, and she said “the problem is when people get married to someone that they wouldn’t even really be friends with.” (Or words to that effect.) That seemed to describe an alien concept to me, and it still does. I’ve never pretended to be friends with someone as a pretext for pursuing a romantic relationship. I can’t imagine why I’d want a relationship with someone I didn’t even like. I’m sure others have already explained it. But we’re not talking about a normal nice guy. We’re talking about the Self-proclaimed Nice Guy (SPNG). I’m guessing you’re not a girl, so you haven’t been exposed to the nonsense these guys put out. TRUST us, they’re abundant, they’re out there. And their definition (not ours on the dope, nor that of most people) of being nice, is pretty much exactly what a doper upthread posted a link to. That is, “I don’t beat women, I’m not a jailbird, I do things (moving, painting, fixing vehicles)” ergo, I deserve a woman. As if we’re prizes that get awarded to the most “deserving” man and have no minds of our own. To further insult us, they believe that we don’t know what we want, and that we only want to date “bad boys” who abuse us. Their idea of what is a suitable woman to “get” usually falls into the realm of supermodel too. ---
**Author:** ![CanvasShoes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/74df32/32.png) [@CanvasShoes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CanvasShoes)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2013, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nice-guy-logical-fallacy/650903/152 "2013-02-24T21:15:21Z")
> [@Incubus](#): > > Only level 51? Pfff, frickin’ casuals 😛 No wonder you weren’t into him! That’s what I was thinking, and frankly, if such a man were NOT a SPNG, I probably would be interested in him. I love geeky stuff. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2013, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nice-guy-logical-fallacy/650903/153 "2013-02-25T03:17:59Z")
> [@CanvasShoes](#): > > I’m sure others have already explained it. But we’re not talking about a normal nice guy. We’re talking about the Self-proclaimed Nice Guy (SPNG). I’m guessing you’re not a girl, so you haven’t been exposed to the nonsense these guys put out. > > TRUST us, they’re abundant, they’re out there. And their definition (not ours on the dope, nor that of most people) of being nice, is pretty much exactly what a doper upthread posted a link to. That is, “I don’t beat women, I’m not a jailbird, I do things (moving, painting, fixing vehicles)” ergo, I deserve a woman. As if we’re prizes that get awarded to the most “deserving” man and have no minds of our own. > > To further insult us, they believe that we don’t know what we want, and that we only want to date “bad boys” who abuse us. > > Their idea of what is a suitable woman to “get” usually falls into the realm of supermodel too. Others have already explained it. I’m just not seeing that the last step in your conclusions is there as often as some people claim it is. It’s disappointing to want a romantic relationship with someone and to find out that they don’t. But to express that disappointment is not the same as saying that the friendship wasn’t genuine, or was manipulative, or that the guy believed he was entitled to more. There may well be guys like this, whose thoughts and motivations are just as described. You’re right that I’m not a girl. I have not seen this in operation from your side, but then, neither have you seen it from mine. I think this trope can lead to such things being over-diagnosed, as it were; to conclude that that’s what guys are thinking even when they’re not. ---
**Author:** ![perfectparanoia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a5b964/32.png) [@perfectparanoia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/perfectparanoia)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2013, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nice-guy-logical-fallacy/650903/154 "2013-02-25T17:20:18Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > Seemed to match the details she gave; lots of guys who she later learned were interested, but only mentions dating two and shooting down a third. > > Not conclusive by any means, of course. **perfectparanoia** , did you make a move on any of the guys, and why, or why not? I made plenty of moves on plenty of guys. Some of them were my friends at the time. I assure you I dated more than three guys while at uni. (Though considering that I rarely got shot down you would think I could have figured out that maybe, just maybe some of my other guy friends had been interested. Man, I was stupid.) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nice-guy-logical-fallacy/650903.md?page=7)