# The nicer the guy, the darker the sexual secrets? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [February 20, 2013, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nicer-the-guy-the-darker-the-sexual-secrets/650866 "2013-02-20T05:39:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2013, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nicer-the-guy-the-darker-the-sexual-secrets/650866/41 "2013-02-20T12:19:06Z")
> [@Troppus](#): > > I’d have to see evidence that women prefer abusive or criminal men. I didn’t say that they do; I said “the common impression” that they do. > [@Troppus](#): > > I do see a lot of unattached men who observe others from the wings and jump to false conclusions about what they think they see. They mistake joking and teasing for meanness. They see a jock who spends time playing golf or watching football as someone who is “neglecting” his significant other in favor of stereotypically masculine hobbies. No; I’m talking about complaints that “he beats his wife” or “she married a convicted murderer”, not “he makes mean jokes”. ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2013, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nicer-the-guy-the-darker-the-sexual-secrets/650866/42 "2013-02-20T12:21:31Z")
> [@JohnClay](#): > > Also he identified with being a “nice guy” (his definition) - surely he’d have more insight than someone who doesn’t identify with having that syndrome. Ah for Pete’s sake, a personality feature or flaw is not a “syndrome”. If you want to be more assertive then practice communicating your wants and needs, but don’t make trouble for yourself by identifying with faulty premises and bad logic. ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2013, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nicer-the-guy-the-darker-the-sexual-secrets/650866/43 "2013-02-20T12:26:13Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > I didn’t say that they do; I said “the common impression” that they do. > > No; I’m talking about complaints that “he beats his wife” or “she married a convicted murderer”, not “he makes mean jokes”. I don’t watch enough Springer to have encountered such claims. Regardless, if a woman who married an actual abusive criminal wanted to be with the self described nice guy who feels superior to his rival, she would do so. If she rejects a nice guy in favor of a criminal it says very little about both her and the nice guy. Seriously, if a woman actually prefers being beaten than dating a nice guy, the nice guy isn’t quite the catch he thinks he is. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2013, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nicer-the-guy-the-darker-the-sexual-secrets/650866/44 "2013-02-20T12:29:13Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > SO we can’t just enjoy being nice any more. Great. Can’t help strangers for fear of being considerd a rapist, can’t work with kids for fear of paedo accusations and now… can’t be _nice_, because it means you’re a pervert. Just great. Hey, for years people have said that I’m a nasty, mean, child hating cuss. Finally now the good of that will be understood! God Bless you and JohnClay always!:):)🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2013, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nicer-the-guy-the-darker-the-sexual-secrets/650866/45 "2013-02-20T12:32:41Z")
> [@Troppus](#): > > I don’t watch enough Springer to have encountered such claims. I never watch him or anything like him. I had to search for “springer show” to even recall the guy’s name. > [@Troppus](#): > > Seriously, if a woman actually prefers being beaten than dating a nice guy, the nice guy isn’t quite the catch he thinks he is. Or, she’s a seriously screwed up individual. If her choice in men is between some self described nice guy she doesn’t like and a man who beats her, the rational choice is neither, not “go with the guy who hits me”. ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2013, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nicer-the-guy-the-darker-the-sexual-secrets/650866/46 "2013-02-20T12:41:44Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > If her choice in men is between some self described nice guy she doesn’t like and a man who beats her, the rational choice is neither, not “go with the guy who hits me”. Sure, you’re right, but if you’re seriously claiming this phenomenon is anything but a rarity or television trope I’m going to ask for evidence. Self-proclaimed nice guys who are routinely passed over in favor of criminals ought to reevaluate their tendency to glom onto masochistic women and reevaluate their own sense of self-worth. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2013, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nicer-the-guy-the-darker-the-sexual-secrets/650866/47 "2013-02-20T12:47:38Z")
> [@Troppus](#): > > Sure, you’re right, but if you’re seriously claiming this phenomenon is anything but a rarity or television trope I’m going to ask for evidence. Again, I’m talking about perception, not the actual statistics of such behavior. Lots of rare things are perceived as common. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2013, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nicer-the-guy-the-darker-the-sexual-secrets/650866/48 "2013-02-20T12:49:42Z")
Well, I guess I’m clear. I’ve never tried to present myself as being “Nice.” I like to think I am a “good” man, even if I am aloof, unapproachable, and condescending. ---
**Author:** ![Maastricht](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@Maastricht](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maastricht)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2013, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nicer-the-guy-the-darker-the-sexual-secrets/650866/49 "2013-02-20T12:56:25Z")
> [@JohnClay](#): > > Well I found another thing quite helpful: > > [http://www.howtosucceedwithwomen.com/tapes/shyguy.html](http://www.howtosucceedwithwomen.com/tapes/shyguy.html) > > “Overcoming the Nice Guy Syndrome: How to Stop Being Shy Without Becoming A Jerk” > I agreed with the part of the tapes that said that nice/shy guys talk quietly with no passion - like they’re bored or almost dead. > > In my life I sometimes talked to girls while expressing interest but it ended in failure far too many times. In some situations where I could have touched the girl (e.g. we were being set up) I didn’t know what to do and so avoided the situation. I was used to understanding and controlling things - I was extremely good at school. I was afraid of certain types of failure so I started to avoid situations I might fail at. Every now and then I’d get out of my comfort zone with women but I’d fail miserably. > > I identify with having the nice guy syndrome for much of my life but at university I changed. But why are you talking about this now? You’re just married or getting married, right? So you’re off the market? ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2013, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nicer-the-guy-the-darker-the-sexual-secrets/650866/50 "2013-02-20T12:59:49Z")
There are two types of “nice guys”. At least two types that seem to be discussed here. The Sleezeball - This guy is superficially nice, polite and accommodating. This is all an act so he can ingratiate himself with people. He’s the guy who gets a little too “touchy feely” with the female coworker who maybe drank a bit too much at happy hour. Or the “shoulder to cry on” when you and your girlfriend get into a fight. He often gives off a creepy vibe because his “niceness” is disingenuous. It’s all a self serving act. The Doormat - This is the guy who thinks if he does everything right and pleases everyone, good things will happen. Of course that never works. People are selfish and will take advantage of his good nature. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2013, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nicer-the-guy-the-darker-the-sexual-secrets/650866/51 "2013-02-20T13:05:46Z")
So, if I am understanding this correctly, this Dr. Glover has labelled a certain variety of asshole “the Nice Guy” and has written books about how these assholes act like assholes? ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2013, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nicer-the-guy-the-darker-the-sexual-secrets/650866/52 "2013-02-20T13:10:26Z")
> [@Troppus](#): > > I think it’s entirely possible that sexually frustrated self-described nice guys (SDNGs) may harbor some dark sexual thoughts towards the women they feel unfairly reject them, but every single guy I’ve dated or been friends with has been genuinely nice and and also honest and open with regards to sex. Even kinkier confessions have come with an expressed desire to also please a partner. If a guy is polite and reserved 99% of the time and wild and uninhibited in the bedroom doesn’t make him a pervert. There may be a distinctive difference between his everyday persona and his bedroom antics,but I don’t believe for a minute that unassuming types are hiding a secret sadistic side. > [@Maastricht](#): > > Also, if a guy confuses being nice with “lying about my sexual interest and pretending I don’t have sexual wants”, then he comes across as insincere, and that annoys and irritates people. > > I can also imagine that such a guy becomes confused about his own sexual thougths and desires and starts to label them as “black” because he himself feels they shouln’t exist. I wonder if we could say the “whiny entitled internet” “Nice Guy” could be said not necessarily have that much “darker” sexual secrets but to _ **feel guiltier** _ about them even if they are not that terrible. As **Troppus** indicates, if to the contrary he is comfortable with his inclinations, is not out to use people but to share with them, and just knows the proper time and place to bring them up after establishing communication and trust, he should not have that problem. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2013, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nicer-the-guy-the-darker-the-sexual-secrets/650866/53 "2013-02-20T13:14:36Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > There are two types of “nice guys”. At least two types that seem to be discussed here. > > The Sleezeball - This guy is superficially nice, polite and accommodating. This is all an act so he can ingratiate himself with people. He’s the guy who gets a little too “touchy feely” with the female coworker who maybe drank a bit too much at happy hour. Or the “shoulder to cry on” when you and your girlfriend get into a fight. He often gives off a creepy vibe because his “niceness” is disingenuous. It’s all a self serving act. > > The Doormat - This is the guy who thinks if he does everything right and pleases everyone, good things will happen. Of course that never works. People are selfish and will take advantage of his good nature. And what about the nice guy who is actually, you know, nice without being a victim? Or is this some masculine version of the infamous Madonna/Whore dichotomy, where men can only be predators or victims? ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2013, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nicer-the-guy-the-darker-the-sexual-secrets/650866/54 "2013-02-20T13:21:42Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > And what about the nice guy who is actually, you know, nice without being a victim? Or is this some masculine version of the infamous Madonna/Whore dichotomy, where men can only be predators or victims? Looks to be, along with probably some confirmation/selection bias. i.e: Not notable when an obvious asshole is nasty Not notable when a genuinely nice person is quietly nice Very notable when someone who appeared to be nice, turns out to be a self-serving asshole - Quick! Write a book! ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2013, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nicer-the-guy-the-darker-the-sexual-secrets/650866/55 "2013-02-20T13:35:49Z")
It seems pussy is like the God of the Calvinists; bestowing salvation according to its own mysterious criteria and not as a reward for good works alone. ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2013, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nicer-the-guy-the-darker-the-sexual-secrets/650866/56 "2013-02-20T13:49:28Z")
This is what a Nice Guy is: someone who thinks that if they dispense enough of the proper friendship tokens into a woman, they are automatically entitled to pussy. And he gets upset when he doesn’t get it and says he is in the “friend zone”. This is what a nice guy is: a good man, who doesn’t tell people he’s a nice guy and doesn’t whine (overly much) and knows women are people, too. Now yes, there are women who will take advantage of this fact. They will have their men running up and down to serve them in the hopes she will one day put out. They are jerks, but it’s human nature. That doesn’t make them any less doormats. I hate the term “friend zone”. There is nothing wrong with being friends with a woman, and if you think that, there is something wrong with you. If you are hanging out with a woman you’d like to bone and she is not into you, do your self-esteem a favor and get out of there. Tell her, if possible, before you go. And then find someone else. That’s what this guy is talking about. ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2013, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nicer-the-guy-the-darker-the-sexual-secrets/650866/57 "2013-02-20T14:07:28Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > And what about the nice guy who is actually, you know, nice without being a victim? Or is this some masculine version of the infamous Madonna/Whore dichotomy, where men can only be predators or victims? I haven’t encountered any women who suffer this dichotomy. Men receive the “predator” after exhibiting predatory behavior; it’s not the default. When women have been startled by predatory behavior, their first instinct is to seek help from the nearest strong human, and that hero is usually a man. Plus, I’ve discounted the extreme example presented by the OP no less than four times in this very thread: > [@Troppus](#): > > …but every single guy I’ve dated or been friends with has been genuinely nice and and also honest and open with regards to sex. Even kinkier confessions have come with an expressed desire to also please a partner. If a guy is polite and reserved 99% of the time and wild and uninhibited in the bedroom doesn’t make him a pervert. There may be a distinctive difference between his everyday persona and his bedroom antics, but I don’t believe for a minute that unassuming types are hiding a secret sadistic side. > [@Troppus](#): > > The archetypal hyper-masculine Hollywood hero is overrepresented in the media and doesn’t reflect the infinite range of good, trustworthy men in the world. There is nothing inherently sinister about being shy, unassuming, or acquiescent. I disagree completely that genuinely nice people harbor secret, impotent ugliness towards others. > [@Troppus](#): > > I disagree that meek = perverted. There is an infinite range of testosterone levels, cultural values, family dynamics, and inherent personality traits that can lead to submissive behavior in men and there is zero evidence that deviation from the archetypal masculine male model leads to or indicates sexual deviance. The author has drawn a conclusion from his own personal opinion, which is the polar opposite of evidence. > [@Troppus](#): > > Me, too. Unlike your author, I’ve had long term relationships, friendships, and sexual relationships with nice guys, and my experience has been exactly the opposite. This has been discussed to death, but no reason we can’t refresh it for the purpose of this thread. Whiney, entitled men who compare themselves to rivals in such a way that paints themselves in a favorable light and while painting successful rivals in a negative light aren’t nice. And women probably don’t see them as nice guys. The condition of not having a girlfriend does not magically render one nice. The condition of lamenting one’s girlfriendless state makes one bitter. The condition of degrading women for their choice in partners makes one misogynistic. The condition of criticizing perceived flaws in others in an attempt to elevate one’s own sense of self-worth is petty and deluded. The kind of guy who is guilty of the above conditions isn’t _nice_. He’s embittered and locked in a self-destructive cycle sure to end in frustration. > [@JRDelirious](#): > > I wonder if we could say the “whiny entitled internet” “Nice Guy” could be said not necessarily have that much “darker” sexual secrets but to _ **feel guiltier** _ about them even if they are not that terrible. My bet is on this one. A couple of our popular religions and some questionable parenting styles attach a lot of shame to sexuality that isn’t conducive to a positive self-worth. Having an interest in sex is as natural as having an interest in food, and it’s a waste of time to attempt to dissect and defend the human sex drive. It’s a shame that anyone has to subject themselves to such rigorous indictment in order to justify their own sexual nature. ---
**Author:** ![Ferret\_Herder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e47774/32.png) [@Ferret\_Herder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferret_Herder)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2013, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nicer-the-guy-the-darker-the-sexual-secrets/650866/58 "2013-02-20T14:21:53Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > And what about the nice guy who is actually, you know, nice without being a victim? Or is this some masculine version of the infamous Madonna/Whore dichotomy, where men can only be predators or victims? Being a decent human being should be the default for either gender, not something to demand back-patting (or a romantic partner) over. So when someone turns that into the main feature of a “but whyyyy don’t I have someone to love?!” lament, it **should** raise questions. ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2013, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nicer-the-guy-the-darker-the-sexual-secrets/650866/59 "2013-02-20T14:22:51Z")
Maybe this shit just exists in the self-perpetuating world of pop psychology claptrap, while out in the real world men behave as gentlemen with no regard to nice vs "Nice; and women enjoy sex and make perfectly loving mothers to the eventual result of that instinct, with no regard to the “madonna/whore complex.” Maybe? ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2013, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nicer-the-guy-the-darker-the-sexual-secrets/650866/60 "2013-02-20T14:32:01Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > And what about the nice guy who is actually, you know, nice without being a victim? Or is this some masculine version of the infamous Madonna/Whore dichotomy, where men can only be predators or victims? They don’t write books or do talk shows about normal, well adjusted men who both treat people with and demand to be treated with respect. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nicer-the-guy-the-darker-the-sexual-secrets/650866.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nicer-the-guy-the-darker-the-sexual-secrets/650866.md?page=4)