# The Night They Drove Old Dixie Down - Question and general discussion thread **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [July 23, 2020, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-night-they-drove-old-dixie-down-question-and-general-discussion-thread/916154 "2020-07-23T19:30:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Wheelz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wheelz/32/5718_2.png) [@Wheelz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wheelz)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2020, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-night-they-drove-old-dixie-down-question-and-general-discussion-thread/916154/1 "2020-07-23T19:30:42Z")
I seem to think there was a somewhat recent thread discussing The Band’s “The Night They Drove Old Dixie Down,” but damned if I can find it. Maybe I’m remembering a conversation within another thread. Anyhow, I happen to like the song quite a lot. It’s been getting a bit of the “Cancel Culture” treatment these days by some who view it as a pro-confederacy anthem, but I’ve always seen it more as a comment on the devastating effect the Civil War had on ordinary, non-slave-owning southerners, who never really had a dog in the fight to begin with. To my particular question: I was looking at the lyrics on [genius.com](https://genius.com/1363226), the one where you can click on each line and get an explanation of its meaning. I’ve seen this site before, and its analysis can range from helpfully insightful to totally full of crap. The lyric in question is from the second verse, and it’s listed as: _Back with my wife in Tennessee_ _When one day she called to me_ _“Virgil, quick, come see, there goes Robert E.Lee”_ Clicking on those lines reveals this: > After the war, the narrator is back at his home with his family. His wife calls him out to see Lee and his Confederate troops headed back home, defeated. > > Some versions of the song (such as Joan Baez’s cover and the live version on _Rock of Ages_ ) include a “the”, which suggests the Mississippi steamboat named after the Confederate general. Lee lived five years after the end of the war, all of them in his native Virginia, and never actually visited Tennessee. I listened very closely to what I believe to be the original studio recording, and it sure sounds to me like he sings “There goes _the_ Robert E. Lee.” I’ve never _not_ heard it that way, in any version. I suspect the line is indeed not about Virgil’s wife actually seeing Lee and his troops passing by. Has anybody ever heard this and _not_ thought it meant the steamboat? Feel free to discuss the song in general as well, if you like. ---
**Author:** ![pool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pool/32/4152_2.png) [@pool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pool)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2020, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-night-they-drove-old-dixie-down-question-and-general-discussion-thread/916154/2 "2020-07-23T19:37:49Z")
The live version by The Band is truly a fantastic song. ---
**Author:** ![Biffster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biffster/32/339_2.png) [@Biffster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffster)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2020, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-night-they-drove-old-dixie-down-question-and-general-discussion-thread/916154/3 "2020-07-23T19:38:09Z")
Robbie Robertson’s still alive. Maybe you could send him an e-mail. I agree, I really like this song and I hope it doesn’t get cancelled. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2020, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-night-they-drove-old-dixie-down-question-and-general-discussion-thread/916154/4 "2020-07-23T19:53:14Z")
Robert E. Lee never went to Tennessee in the immediate aftermath of the war. He was in Virginia when it ended and went back to his home there. OTOH, the steamboat _Robert E. Lee_ wasn’t launched until 1866, a year after the war. It was considered from the start to be an impressive ship, so there’s no reason why it would make Virgil sad even if he saw it then. Wikipedia says that “the” was always supposed to be the lyric, but can’t be heard on the album. Leaving it out messes up the rhythm of the line, so it probably was intended. What I think is that Robertson just chose an evocative image. Not everything in a song is based on anything that actually happened. You might as well ask if Virgil Caine existed. ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2020, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-night-they-drove-old-dixie-down-question-and-general-discussion-thread/916154/5 "2020-07-23T20:09:10Z")
You may be thinking of a discussion on the “other board” if you are a member. FWIW, I agree. It never quite drifts into lost causism or an endorsement of the Confederacy tome, at least not The Band version (though the Joan Baez seems to, as Virgil seems to say that he, like his brother, took a rebel stand). But to _The Band_ version… there’s no exhortation that can be taken as “we fought for the right thing and lost, and that’s sad.” The closest it comes to expressing sympathy for “the cause” is really more like indifference (_“take what you need, leave the rest,” I know your damn paper Confederate “money’s no good”, but I don’t want to argue with a bunch of armed men over it_ seems to be the general attitude), but then there’s the line “they should never have taken the very best,” which I take to be referring to his brother, who died fighting for the Confederacy, and so was wasted. He’s not expressing pride that his brother fought for a good cause, but sadness that he didn’t just stay home and outlive the Confederacy. ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2020, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-night-they-drove-old-dixie-down-question-and-general-discussion-thread/916154/6 "2020-07-23T20:19:38Z")
I just missed the edit window. I looked at those “[genius.com](https://genius.com/The-band-the-night-they-drove-old-dixie-down-lyrics)” annotations for the lyrics. I think whoever wrote them (unless of course they are coincidentally a member of this board outside The Pit) was a flipping idiot who has gone out of his or her way to interpret the song as a pro-confederacy anthem. I don’t know what “original lyrics” they’re referring to. Because it’s not like _The Band_ was doing a cover (as Joan Baez was). So when I listen to _The Band_’s recording of the song, I take that as the definitive studio-released version. As an example of just how warped he annotations are, the certified “not genius” at [genius.com](https://genius.com/The-band-the-night-they-drove-old-dixie-down-lyrics) insists that the line “but they should never have taken the very best” is actually “but they should never have taken on the very best.” Uh… cite please? ---
**Author:** ![Wheelz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wheelz/32/5718_2.png) [@Wheelz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wheelz)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2020, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-night-they-drove-old-dixie-down-question-and-general-discussion-thread/916154/7 "2020-07-23T21:23:03Z")
> [@Biffster](#): > > Robbie Robertson’s still alive. Maybe you could send him an e-mail. I just sent him a message via Facebook. Not holding my breath, but ya never know! ---
**Author:** ![Biffster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biffster/32/339_2.png) [@Biffster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffster)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2020, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-night-they-drove-old-dixie-down-question-and-general-discussion-thread/916154/8 "2020-07-23T21:34:51Z")
> [@Wheelz](#): > > I just sent him a message via Facebook. Not holding my breath, but ya never know! Fingers crossed! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2020, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-night-they-drove-old-dixie-down-question-and-general-discussion-thread/916154/9 "2020-07-23T21:50:54Z")
I wouldn’t say it is a pro-confederacy song, but it also is not an anti-confederacy song. I always took it as the lament of some average Joe who never had slaves and was never anywhere close to the landed gentry of the antebellum south. But he liked the south, so he went off and fought what he thought was a good cause, and ended up on the losing side. And after it all, he went back home with nothing to show for the whole thing but a dead brother. But I never thought “the very best” was his brother - just commenting on looting by the Union. What do I know? I usually miss these things. ---
**Author:** ![Beckdawrek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beckdawrek/32/3647_2.png) [@Beckdawrek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beckdawrek)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2020, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-night-they-drove-old-dixie-down-question-and-general-discussion-thread/916154/10 "2020-07-23T22:06:19Z")
The line “There goes ?? Robert E.Lee” ?? Could be: the, da, ah according to who was and when they were singing. Southern-speak tells me it is ‘ah’ as in: “There goes ah Robert E. Lee” The steam ship. Ah=The. IMHO I really really hope Robbie answers you. ---
**Author:** ![lobotomyboy63](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobotomyboy63/32/2900_2.png) [@lobotomyboy63](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lobotomyboy63)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2020, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-night-they-drove-old-dixie-down-question-and-general-discussion-thread/916154/11 "2020-07-23T22:15:51Z")
Since the Danville train is mentioned earlier on, I assumed the Robt E Lee was also a train. There was a boat? Works just as well. They needed wood to fuel a steam engine, plus campfires etc. Virgil Caine is my name. I know very little about the Bible. (How long did Cain hate his brother? As long as he was Abel.) I looked it up. This struck me. > [@](#): > > And He said, “What have you done? Listen! your _brother’s blood cries out to me from the soil_. 11And so, cursed shall you be by the soil that gaped with its mouth to take your brother’s blood from your hand. _12If you till the soil, it will no longer give you strength._ A restless wanderer shall you be on the earth.” 13 And Cain said to the Lord, “My punishment is too great to bear. 14Now that You have driven me this day from the soil I must hide from Your presence, I shall be a restless wanderer on the earth and whoever finds me will kill me.” 15And the Lord said to him, “Therefore whoever kills Cain shall suffer sevenfold vengeance.” And the Lord set a mark upon Cain so that whoever found him would not slay him. 16And Cain went out from the Lord’s presence and dwelled in the land of Nod east of Eden. 17And Cain knew his wife and she conceived and bore Enoch. (Italics mine) I swear by the blood below my feet…you can’t raise a Cain back up when it’s in defeat. So as Cain rebelled and killed Abel, we have the Confederates. Virgil can’t be killed—but his brother can. He can’t sustain himself from the scorched earth (“If you till the soil…”). But he’s cursed. > **[Cain and Abel](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cain_and_Abel)** > > In the biblical Book of Genesis, Cain\[a\] and Abel\[b\] are the first two sons of Adam and Eve. Cain, the firstborn, was a farmer, and his brother Abel was a shepherd. The brothers made sacrifices to God, but God favored Abel's sacrifice instead of Cain's. Cain then murdered Abel, whereupon God punished Cain by condemning him to a life of wandering. Cain then dwelt in the land of Nod (נוֹד, 'wandering'), where he built a city and fathered the line of descendants beginning with Enoch. > In the Qur'a... The author(s) chose Tennessee, the Volunteer State. They could have gone either way. Well, no…the Cain/Abel thing wouldn’t work if they had chosen the Union. Here’s a map. [https://www.mountainpress.com/maps/tn/mp-cr026w.html](https://www.mountainpress.com/maps/tn/mp-cr026w.html) ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2020, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-night-they-drove-old-dixie-down-question-and-general-discussion-thread/916154/12 "2020-07-23T23:45:44Z")
I think the biblical reference is made only indirectly, through the intermediate expression “[raise Cain](https://www.dictionary.com/browse/raise--cain),” as in, “You can’t raise a Cain(e) back up when it’s in defeat.” Like, talk all you want about rising again and “raising Cain,” but at the end of the day… the south lost and my brother (a Caine) is still dead. So good luck getting _him_ out to fight again. So it’s not used in a “I somehow metaphorically killed my brother through rebellion” kind of way but in a “You all go on pissing and moaning about how the south shall rise again, but my brother fought for you and he sure as shit ain’t gonna rise again” kind of way. > [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](#): > > But I never thought “the very best” was his brother - just commenting on looting by the Union. What do I know? I usually miss these things. If all we had to go off were the lyrics, I might agree with you. But the way it’s sung, the emphasis placed on it, it sounds more like a statement of lament or melancholy rather than a vindictive statement. It is, to me, foreshadowing the later verse in which he relates the fate of his brother. I take the below couple verses: > [@](#): > > Back with my wife in Tennessee > When one day she called to me > “Virgil, quick, come see, > There goes Robert E. Lee!” > > Now, I don’t mind chopping wood > And I don’t care if the money’s no good > You take what you need > And you leave the rest > But they should never > Have taken the very best Taken together, to represent of a guy at work around the family farm, minding his own business, when one day the Confederate Army comes by. Maybe not literally Robert E. Lee, but some uncommon spectacle of a large number of soldiers. As part of this, the quartermaster types go around gathering up supplies, offering the choice of either useless money or a bayonet, and of course old Virgil here is just like “Whatevs, take what you want, leave the rest.” Because he doesn’t really care one way or the other, and certainly isn’t going to die in a futile attempt to keep them from taking what they will. He can accept that. But what he _can’t_ accept is that his brother goes off with them. They didn’t just take the goods, they took “the very best” of the family. And that’s, like, sad, because it turns out later he died against the union. The lost goods and possessions can be replaced, but his brother cannot be “raised” again. BT Honestly, but for the final fate of the brother, the song, or at least the main thrust of it, could almost be taken as a summary of the 1965 film, [Shenandoah](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shenandoah_(film)). The film centers around a family patriarch (played by James Stewart) on a family farm in the Shenandoah valley of Virginia during the Civil War, just wanting to keep his family out of it, feeling no particular obligation to support either side. Much of the conflict is over the sons’ varying attitudes to the war and obedience, with at least one wanting to join up with the Confederate Army against the father’s wishes. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2020, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-night-they-drove-old-dixie-down-question-and-general-discussion-thread/916154/13 "2020-07-23T23:54:27Z")
> [@Wheelz](#): > > I seem to think there was a somewhat recent thread discussing The Band’s “The Night They Drove Old Dixie Down,” but damned if I can find it. Maybe I’m remembering a conversation within another thread. Maybe it was in Brigadoon. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2020, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-night-they-drove-old-dixie-down-question-and-general-discussion-thread/916154/14 "2020-07-24T00:15:39Z")
> [@Wheelz](#): > > I seem to think there was a somewhat recent thread discussing The Band’s “The Night They Drove Old Dixie Down,” but damned if I can find it. Maybe I’m remembering a conversation within another thread. There’s one from December which links to this thread: > [@Joan Baez Sings 'The Night They Drove Old Dixie Down'?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/joan-baez-sings-the-night-they-drove-old-dixie-down/819263): > > First, I’ve got to tell you all about this wonderful site. FYE. They let you mix and burn your own CD’s. Or you can download them as MP3’s (I’ve never done the latter, I should tell you all). Anyways, they have quite an eclectic selection. Not just top 40. But religious, oldies, the whole bunch. (I esp. like religious and inspirational tunes. I am not too religious per se. But I like what I like.) Anyways, I recently got The Night They Drove Old Dixie Down sung by Joan Baez. I already had it b… ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2020, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-night-they-drove-old-dixie-down-question-and-general-discussion-thread/916154/15 "2020-07-24T15:21:02Z")
The Night They Drove Old Dixie Down chronicles the defeat of the South. It’s one of my favorites to play & sing. I find it sad that people object to it. I view it as a strong statement about the consequences of a war. Remember that it came out in 1969 during the anti war protest marches. The Band released this song in Sept 1969. The Kent State shooting was May 1970. The protest movement inspired a lot of music. ---
**Author:** ![pjd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pjd/32/3009_2.png) [@pjd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pjd)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2020, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-night-they-drove-old-dixie-down-question-and-general-discussion-thread/916154/16 "2020-07-24T19:38:20Z")
[Robbie Robertson Discusses Meaning Behind “The Night They Drove Old Dixie Down”](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gXSYm-CkUsE) ---
**Author:** ![Wheelz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wheelz/32/5718_2.png) [@Wheelz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wheelz)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2020, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-night-they-drove-old-dixie-down-question-and-general-discussion-thread/916154/17 "2020-07-24T22:29:43Z")
That was interesting, if not terribly enlightening. Robertson is clearly excited to talk about his creative process, while being not at all interested in breaking it all down line by line and saying, “this is about this, and this is about that.” I once saw a quote when somebody asked him about “The Weight,” and it was like “I wrote down some words, and then some more words followed those, and pretty soon I had a song.” I don’t think he was being snarky about it; he was literally describing how he wrote it. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2020, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-night-they-drove-old-dixie-down-question-and-general-discussion-thread/916154/18 "2020-07-25T12:36:52Z")
When you go on about how “they” defeated “old Dixie”, it does have the flavor of a Lost Cause lament rather than just referencing the horrors of war. Not as bad as Tom Petty’s “Rebels”, though. I was born a rebel, born a rebel Even before my father’s fathers They called us all rebels Burned our cornfields And left our cities leveled I can still see the eyes Of those blue bellied devils When I’m walking round tonight Through the concrete and metal" ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2020, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-night-they-drove-old-dixie-down-question-and-general-discussion-thread/916154/19 "2020-07-25T19:01:46Z")
> [@lobotomyboy63](#): > > Since the Danville train is mentioned earlier on, I assumed the Robt E Lee was also a train. That was also my impression, the Robert E. Lee was an engine that was being confiscated. > **[Western & Atlantic No. 3 General](https://locomotive.fandom.com/wiki/Western_%26_Atlantic_No._3_General)** > > General is a 4-4-0 tender steam locomotive. Western & Atlantic Railroad No.3, named General (aka The General), is a type of 4-4-0 "American Standard" steam locomotive that was built in 1855 by The Rogers, Ketchum & Grosvenor... ---
**Author:** ![Bonum\_Legatum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bonum_legatum/32/6183_2.png) [@Bonum\_Legatum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bonum_Legatum)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2020, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-night-they-drove-old-dixie-down-question-and-general-discussion-thread/916154/20 "2020-07-26T14:10:09Z")
It makes sense that “Robert E. Lee” refers to a steamboat or railroad engine because the next stanza “I don’t mind chopping wood” could refer to the Virgil chopping wood to sell. As in “Virgil! Look here comes the riverboat. Get to the river and see if the captain wants to buy wood.” [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-night-they-drove-old-dixie-down-question-and-general-discussion-thread/916154.md?page=2)