# The Nineteenth Letter of the English Alphabet... **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 16, 2003, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nineteenth-letter-of-the-english-alphabet/155462 "2003-02-16T16:49:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![gex\_gex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/94ad74/32.png) [@gex\_gex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gex_gex)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2003, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nineteenth-letter-of-the-english-alphabet/155462/61 "2003-02-28T16:33:28Z")
> [@](#): > > _originally posted by danceswithcats_ > Moot vs. mute: At meetings, I’ve heard speakers referring to a mute point. Was the point not able to speak? Was the point that of a device applied to the bell of a trumpet or cornet while playing to change its tone? Question: do you Americans pronounce these words identically? Cuz, I don’t run into this problem, by virtue of pronouncing the former _moot_ and the latter _myoot_. ---
**Author:** ![trochai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@trochai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/trochai)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2003, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nineteenth-letter-of-the-english-alphabet/155462/62 "2003-02-28T16:36:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gex gex \* > \*\*Question: do you Americans pronounce these words identically? Cuz, I don’t run into this problem, by virtue of pronouncing the former _moot_ and the latter _myoot_. \*\* Typically no, though with the tendency to be lazy with pronounciation, it can become an issue ---
**Author:** ![emulsified](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/emulsified/32/2915_2.png) [@emulsified](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emulsified)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2003, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nineteenth-letter-of-the-english-alphabet/155462/63 "2003-02-28T17:21:56Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by danceswithcats_ > When were the grammatical gates let down so as to accept sentences beginning with the words ‘and’ and ‘but’? When read by themselves, these are sentence fragments, and should be appropriately coupled with the preceding sentence, else they ought not to be. I don’t mean to interfere with your rant, but I guess those gates were let down at least around Elizabethan times. > [@](#): > > [Usage Note:](http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=and) It is frequently asserted that sentences beginning with and or but express “incomplete thoughts” and are therefore incorrect. But this rule has been ridiculed by grammarians for decades, and the stricture has been ignored by writers from Shakespeare to Joyce Carol Oates. When asked whether they paid attention to the rule in their own writing, 24 percent of the Usage Panel answered “always or usually,” 36 percent answered “sometimes,” and 40 percent answered “rarely or never.” And, since I’m taking my turn as the pedant… > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by t-keela_Whose idea is it to play grammar police in this semi-literate, syntaxically challenged population of neologists? There’s no such word as _syntaxically_. I think you wanted **syntactically**. Muahahaha. There’s nothing more thrilling than correcting grammar (and spelling) in a grammar thread. Now someone take a shot at me, if you dare. ---
**Author:** ![trochai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@trochai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/trochai)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2003, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nineteenth-letter-of-the-english-alphabet/155462/64 "2003-02-28T18:30:19Z")
Attack of the Homonyms again! Weather and Whether (this is one of the few homonym issues even I am guilty of from time to time) ---
**Author:** ![emulsified](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/emulsified/32/2915_2.png) [@emulsified](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emulsified)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2003, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nineteenth-letter-of-the-english-alphabet/155462/65 "2003-02-28T18:39:13Z")
Oh, sweet! Another pedantic opportunity! _Weather_ and _whether_ are more properly **homophones** , not homonyms. Whee! ---
**Author:** ![trochai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@trochai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/trochai)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2003, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nineteenth-letter-of-the-english-alphabet/155462/66 "2003-02-28T18:43:14Z")
DOH! _hangs head in shame_ And I was feeling _sooooo_ very smart ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2003, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nineteenth-letter-of-the-english-alphabet/155462/67 "2003-02-28T18:50:51Z")
My shot at **emulsified** , courtesy of [www.dictionary.com](http://www.dictionary.com): > [@](#): > > hom·o·nym > > 1. One of two or more words that have the same sound and **often** the same spelling but differ in meaning, such as bank (embankment) and bank (place where money is kept). > [@](#): > > hom·o·phone > > One of two or more words, such as night and knight, that are pronounced the same but differ in meaning, origin, and **sometimes** spelling. [emphasis added] While homophone is a correct name for this phenomenon, so is homonym. Boo-yah! Daniel ---
**Author:** ![t-keela](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a3d4f5/32.png) [@t-keela](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/t-keela)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2003, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nineteenth-letter-of-the-english-alphabet/155462/68 "2003-02-28T18:54:31Z")
That’s a matter of opinion, asshole. [http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=syntaxically&btnG=Google+Search](http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=syntaxically&btnG=Google+Search) Like I said earlier, a language evolves or it dies. As do posters who simply instigate and insult others. ---
**Author:** ![t-keela](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a3d4f5/32.png) [@t-keela](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/t-keela)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2003, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nineteenth-letter-of-the-english-alphabet/155462/69 "2003-02-28T19:02:37Z")
That’s two strikes… ---
**Author:** ![emulsified](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/emulsified/32/2915_2.png) [@emulsified](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emulsified)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2003, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nineteenth-letter-of-the-english-alphabet/155462/70 "2003-02-28T19:14:15Z")
I don’t have as much emotion tied to the issue as you do, apparently, **t-keela** , (at least not enough to call you names) but I would think that when correct spelling is the matter at hand, the dictionary trumps Google as a citable source. Sorry to have offended you, though. And re **DanielWinthrow** , please note that I was careful to qualify my pedantic nitpick by saying _homophone_ was the “more proper” term, which I think [dictionary.com](http://dictionary.com) would support. (Thanks for not calling me an asshole, though.) ---
**Author:** ![Pablito](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ed655f/32.png) [@Pablito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pablito)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2003, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nineteenth-letter-of-the-english-alphabet/155462/71 "2003-02-28T19:14:24Z")
**t-keela** –you might want to lighten up, even if you are right. As it happens, I don’t think you are. Finding examples of a word via google doesn’t mean it’s a word–it may just mean that others use the same misspelling. My search was to go to Merriam-Webster’s online dictionary, which does not list ‘syntaxically’, for what it’s worth. And by the way–trying to put this gently–maybe I missed it, but I didn’t notice anyone being insulting, other than the poster who called another an ‘asshole’. _look just above my post_ ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2003, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nineteenth-letter-of-the-english-alphabet/155462/72 "2003-02-28T19:51:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by emulsified \* > \*\*And re **DanielWinthrow** , please note that I was careful to qualify my pedantic nitpick by saying _homophone_ was the “more proper” term, which I think [dictionary.com](http://dictionary.com) would support. (Thanks for not calling me an asshole, though.) \*\* Hee hee – strike two! There’s only one “n” in my user name! Boo-yah! I don’t think [dictionary.com](http://dictionary.com) supports your reading, because both terms are proper. If somebody says, “Hey, the grocery store has nice melons today,” and you respond, “they’re more properly called watermelons,” you’re incorrect. Since they’re properly called “melons,” “watermelons” isn’t a more proper term. Similarly, since “whether” and “weather” are properly called homonyms, they’re not more properly called homophones. They’re ALSO properly called homophones. But that’s not a correction-worthy offense. I try not to take joy in correcting other folks’ grammar – but boy howdy do I love sticking it in the eye of folks who DO correct other folks’ grammar. And you did, after all, invite us to take our best shot :D. That said, anyone who gets bent out of shape about having their grammar corrected in a grammar-rant thread needs a nice long hot bath. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2003, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nineteenth-letter-of-the-english-alphabet/155462/73 "2003-02-28T20:00:14Z")
“Syntaxically” looks like a word used primarily by programmers: as such, it may qualify as a neologism, useful to programmers because of its closer similarity to “syntax,” an obviously important word in programming. My grammar-nazi instinct tell me it’s hunky-dory in this context. But in pomo writings and other non-programming contexts, I see no reason not to use the traditional “syntactically.” Daniel ---
**Author:** ![emulsified](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/emulsified/32/2915_2.png) [@emulsified](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emulsified)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2003, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nineteenth-letter-of-the-english-alphabet/155462/74 "2003-02-28T20:29:09Z")
Well, nuts. I could argue more, but instead, I will humbly submit on the homonym/homophone issue. **trochai** , continue to use either in good health. And now, having made my hundredth post, I will go back to lurking. I’m getting a headache trying not to make any grammatical errors. P.S. Sorry for misspelling your username. ---
**Author:** ![trochai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@trochai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/trochai)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2003, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nineteenth-letter-of-the-english-alphabet/155462/75 "2003-02-28T20:36:38Z")
**emulsified** and **DanielWithrow** thanks for the clarifications… and emulsified, I was completely ready to submit to your grammar skills before Daniel corrected you ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2003, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nineteenth-letter-of-the-english-alphabet/155462/76 "2003-02-28T20:38:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by emulsified \* > \*\*P.S. Sorry for misspelling your username. \*\* No problem – it’s all in good fun! Daniel i.e., the geek who thinks grammar is good fun ---
**Author:** ![vivalostwages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d07c76/32.png) [@vivalostwages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vivalostwages)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2003, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nineteenth-letter-of-the-english-alphabet/155462/77 "2003-03-01T03:28:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by emulsified \* > \*\*Oh, sweet! > > Another pedantic opportunity! > > _Weather_ and _whether_ are more properly **homophones** , not homonyms. > > Whee! \*\* * * * Why is there still so much prejudice against homonyms? Maybe the rest of the words are just insecure and think they have to take it out on others which… Oh. Never mind. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![mnemosyne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c4cdca/32.png) [@mnemosyne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mnemosyne)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2003, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nineteenth-letter-of-the-english-alphabet/155462/78 "2003-03-01T05:05:34Z")
Another spelling error: “Mabey”. I have a friend who always writes “maybe” as “mabey”. It drives me nuts. ---
**Author:** ![t-keela](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a3d4f5/32.png) [@t-keela](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/t-keela)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2003, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nineteenth-letter-of-the-english-alphabet/155462/79 "2003-03-01T05:11:33Z")
Yeah, you’re right. I apologize for the offensive remark. It’s been a long damned week. Although, you did provoke the response. I was originally trying to make the point that languages are not “hard wired” so to speak. They are subject to change with the introduction of new generations, cultures and technology. Once upon a time, the word ain’t was also not a “real” word. Here in Texas, we use “Howdy” as a regular greeting. Yet, in most parts of the U.S. it is not generally used. Times change, so does our vocabulary. I’ll not go on with this, except to say… (don’t ya’ love those ellipsis?) Syntactically-deals with the properties of languages in general Syntaxically-deals with the specific patterns and rules of structure within a given language (also logistics, which is where the computer def. comes into play) Hey, get a new dictionary…I only Googled it to show that it really is a word. There are several others I could have used instead. Sorry if I offended…☹ ---
**Author:** ![t-keela](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a3d4f5/32.png) [@t-keela](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/t-keela)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2003, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nineteenth-letter-of-the-english-alphabet/155462/80 "2003-03-01T05:18:02Z")
BTW, this is a pit thread, right? So, what’s everybody getting so upset about? Hey, I’m an asshole too, but that’s another thread…😉 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nineteenth-letter-of-the-english-alphabet/155462.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nineteenth-letter-of-the-english-alphabet/155462.md?page=5)