# The "No, Both Sides Don't Do This" Thread **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 1, 2015, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-no-both-sides-dont-do-this-thread/718990 "2015-05-01T13:18:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2015, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-no-both-sides-dont-do-this-thread/718990/221 "2015-05-09T15:09:42Z")
> [@Fuzzy\_wuzzy](#): > > If so many cunts existed on the intelletual Left back then its hard to believe they don’t exist in similar[ish] number in the intellectual Left today. I’m sure there is a name for that logical fallacy, but I can’t think of it just now. At any rate, it’s a specious argument. You need to show that such people exist today. If you wanted to do that, you might start with the support of Saudi Arabia. That’s a pretty despicable regime, and it seems to be supported by both Democrats and Republicans. One might argue that the degree of support is different, but was there any change in our relationship with them when the Democrats held the presidency and both houses of Congress? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2015, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-no-both-sides-dont-do-this-thread/718990/222 "2015-05-09T15:46:04Z")
Oh, so then it becomes clear. Supporting bloodthirsty oppressive regimes is forgivable, perhaps even admirable, if it is the result of cold geopolitical calculation, _realpolitik_. It only becomes suspect if it results from _ideological_ blindness. Yes, that certainly clarifies things. As Calvin Coolidge famously noted, the business of America is business. So we gave them the business, good and hard. But at least it wasn’t ideological, our support for grave-creators. It was just business. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2015, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-no-both-sides-dont-do-this-thread/718990/223 "2015-05-09T17:04:06Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Oh, so then it becomes clear. Supporting bloodthirsty oppressive regimes is forgivable, perhaps even admirable … You mean, regimes like the USofA? Anybody have reliable figures for the NA genocide effort? That is, unless the past is just bygones. ---
**Author:** ![Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a8b319/32.png) [@Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuzzy_wuzzy)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2015, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-no-both-sides-dont-do-this-thread/718990/224 "2015-05-09T17:11:14Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I’m sure there is a name for that logical fallacy, but I can’t think of it just now. At any rate, it’s a specious argument. You need to show that such people exist today. > > If you wanted to do that, you might start with the support of Saudi Arabia. That’s a pretty despicable regime, and it seems to be supported by both Democrats and Republicans. One might argue that the degree of support is different, but was there any change in our relationship with them when the Democrats held the presidency and both houses of Congress? I am not here to defend Republican or right wing support of such regimes. Im not suggesting the Right are any better than the left as the OP and others are. It’s no logical fallacy on my part. I simply suggested that the critical faculty of the Left has historically been found wanting; that roughly the same proportion of Leftists will still lack a critical faculty today - even egghead ones. The same proportion will exaggerate, lie, steal, cheat and rape as those on the intellectual and political Right. It’s all part of human nature. The Left will suffer from roughly the same foibles of human nature as any other group of human beings. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2015, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-no-both-sides-dont-do-this-thread/718990/225 "2015-05-09T17:31:41Z")
[that is a largely unsupportable assertion](http://2012election.procon.org/view.resource.php?resourceID=004818) ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2015, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-no-both-sides-dont-do-this-thread/718990/226 "2015-05-09T17:38:11Z")
> [@Fuzzy\_wuzzy](#): > > I am not here to defend Republican or right wing support of such regimes. Im not suggesting the Right are any better than the left as the OP and others are. > > It’s no logical fallacy on my part. I simply suggested that the critical faculty of the Left has historically been found wanting; that roughly the same proportion of Leftists will still lack a critical faculty today - even egghead ones. The same proportion will exaggerate, lie, steal, cheat and rape as those on the intellectual and political Right. It’s all part of human nature. The Left will suffer from roughly the same foibles of human nature as any other group of human beings. So, we’re all equivalent to NAZIs. That’s good to know! ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2015, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-no-both-sides-dont-do-this-thread/718990/227 "2015-05-11T03:17:54Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > In either case, it was 40+ years ago and may not usefully reflect what the two parties are like today. I don’t disagree, although the side topic got started when discussing the Nazis and left/right support for the USSR/Nazis. > [@elucidator](#): > > Just what, perzackly, do you mean here? Is it requirement of my patriotism that I honor my country? Yes. But tell me, how do I honor my country by not resisting dishonorable and odious acts? The patriotic sacrifice of ducking my head, sticking my hands in my pocket, and pretending I don’t see it? > > You are coy. What, perzackly, is the correct interpretation of “a fair amount”? Are you offering sober analysis or sarcasm? Was it predominant, pervasive, and everybody knows it, nudge, nudge, wink wink, there were a fair amount of racists in the Ku Klux Klan… I wasn’t expecting my words to be parsed like a passage in the Bible. Some elements of the left gave plenty of support to oppressive regimes, including Vietnam. Surely you remember Che shirts? This side discussion got started to debate whether liberals support (and have supported) oppressive leaders to the same degree as conservatives. I believe they have and have given equivalent examples. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2015, 7:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-no-both-sides-dont-do-this-thread/718990/228 "2015-05-11T07:39:44Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > …Surely you remember Che shirts?.. I have also seen a few T-shirts dedicated to Archbishop Romero as well. In my estimation, an altogether more admirable person than Che. What’s your point? ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2015, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-no-both-sides-dont-do-this-thread/718990/229 "2015-05-11T13:21:18Z")
[Interesting counterpoint](http://cleveland.indymedia.org/news/2004/09/12184.php) to the “both sides don’t do it” argument. Alert elements on the left knew the Marines’ “Urban Warrior” exercises of 1999 in the S.F. Bay Area were _not_ designed to test and improve fighting capability in cities (like Mogadishu). Oh, no. It was part of the “imperialist vision guiding the U.S. war machine” to suppress people’s movements here and abroad. Which apparently was part of why local protesters occupied the Oakland mayor’s office. But ignore that. It’s only crazy right-wing Texans who get all conspiratorial about U.S. military exercises in this country. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2015, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-no-both-sides-dont-do-this-thread/718990/230 "2015-05-11T13:23:53Z")
And which Democratic elected officials signed on to the 1999 conspiracy theory? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2015, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-no-both-sides-dont-do-this-thread/718990/231 "2015-05-11T13:51:19Z")
Whoever it was, we can be sure he was not a Scotsman! ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2015, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-no-both-sides-dont-do-this-thread/718990/232 "2015-05-11T14:33:06Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Whoever it was, we can be sure he was not a Scotsman! Har har. But to point to the most extreme leftists who have no standing in the Democratic Party to the most extreme right wingers who run a good portion of the Republican Party does not demonstrate equivalence to any degree. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2015, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-no-both-sides-dont-do-this-thread/718990/233 "2015-05-11T16:23:57Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > …I wasn’t expecting my words to be parsed like a passage in the Bible… They weren’t. But your words carried an insinuation, that somehow protesting the Viet Nam War was wrong, perhaps unpatriotic. You were offered an opportunity to erase that insinuation, all you had to say was “That wasn’t what I meant”. You didn’t. Still can, of course, so here’s another opportunity. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2015, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-no-both-sides-dont-do-this-thread/718990/234 "2015-05-11T19:42:40Z")
Given that the underlying motivation of the prosecution of warfare is economic, it is not entirely unreasonable to connect it to contemporary “imperialism”. The term, though, is inciteful (which effectively becomes the opposite “insightful” simply by inflaming divisiveness), which marks a diatribe as suitable for preaching to the choir but not suitable for swaying the pliable. Because of this, sites like indymedia have a hard time gaining traction: if one runs a fine tooth comb over the internets to find examples, just about anything can be unearthed, but the right wing seems to get a great deal more visible coverage for their irrational rantings. In other words, the center leftwards for the most part seems quite adept at keeping the fringe contained, the right has shown an inability to rein in their own wackos. ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2015, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-no-both-sides-dont-do-this-thread/718990/235 "2015-05-11T20:18:10Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > They weren’t. But your words carried an insinuation, that somehow protesting the Viet Nam War was wrong, perhaps unpatriotic. You were offered an opportunity to erase that insinuation, all you had to say was “That wasn’t what I meant”. > > You didn’t. Still can, of course, so here’s another opportunity. Where did I say supporting Vietnam was wrong or unpatriotic? What I said was: 1. A non-trivial number of people on the left have supported Vietnam (not just protested the war). 2. Vietnam is an oppressive government (less so now than in the past). Whether that support was wrong or not depends on one’s _realpolitik_, as you put it. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2015, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-no-both-sides-dont-do-this-thread/718990/236 "2015-05-12T00:17:18Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > 1. A non-trivial number of people on the left have supported Vietnam (not just protested the war). Can you back that up with numbers? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2015, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-no-both-sides-dont-do-this-thread/718990/237 "2015-05-12T00:21:12Z")
A non-trivial number of people on the right supported Vietnam, too. Just depends on which Vietnam you’re talking about. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2015, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-no-both-sides-dont-do-this-thread/718990/238 "2015-05-12T01:05:36Z")
Well, the good one, of course, the Viet Nam that basked in the benign glow of Madame Nhu, Diem, and then a succession of highly placed military men. Many forget the stern devotion of the army of S. Vietnam, their professionalism, the crisply precise way they performed complex maneuvers like the strategic retreat. And the shrewd stratagem of abandoning their weapons, thus burdening the enemy with additional weight, and hampering their progress. These ploys were often misunderstood by American soldiers, who did not grasp the subtlety of Oriental thinking. Such dedication and loyalty is inspired only by leadership that is wise, benign, and honest. The US only failed because we had every advantage in firepower, supplies, training and air supremacy, and the VC exploited that weakness with oriental cunning. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2015, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-no-both-sides-dont-do-this-thread/718990/239 "2015-05-12T01:13:27Z")
I think the main conclusion that can be drawn about Vietnam is that Democrats can also start pointless wars. That is, if we’re going to go back that far, which I think is not what the OP is trying to address. I think he is talking more recent times-- as in, the last 10 years or so. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2015, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-no-both-sides-dont-do-this-thread/718990/240 "2015-05-12T01:14:54Z")
This whole Vietnam thing is totally a red herring. Sure, there may have been some small minority of the vast numbers of young and idealistic baby boomers in the 60s who saw some anti-capitalist virtue in communist governments, but the **serious** opposition to the Vietnam war from the **mainstream** left was on the basis of it being a pointless war that was costing thousands of young American lives for absolutely no reason. The real reason for the war was that the US didn’t like the communists, and the rational response to that is that Vietnam had the right of self-determination. The US also feared a “domino effect” whereby communism would take over the whole region and, eventually, the world, or something. Which was, of course, complete nonsense. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-no-both-sides-dont-do-this-thread/718990.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-no-both-sides-dont-do-this-thread/718990.md?page=13)