# The no-fly and terrorist watch lists are full of garbage data and should be abandoned. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 16, 2016, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-no-fly-and-terrorist-watch-lists-are-full-of-garbage-data-and-should-be-abandoned/757561 "2016-06-16T21:21:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2016, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-no-fly-and-terrorist-watch-lists-are-full-of-garbage-data-and-should-be-abandoned/757561/21 "2016-06-18T18:05:00Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > Being on the list most assuredly does not constitute due process. Due process requires–at the barest minimum–fair notice of the action being taken or the judgment being made and an opportunity to contest it or change your behavior to avoid it. > > Watchlists, including the no-fly list, are secret. You only know you’re on it because of the actions taken against you, and even then they do not confirm that you’re on it. There is some limited ability to contest your presence on some lists, but that issue is very much in flux. > > As I pointed out elsewhere, one of the problems with transforming a watchlist into a gun ban is that it makes it very easy to find out if you’re on the list. To the extent such lists are useful at all, that usefulness is diminished if a five-man cell just have to see which of them is on the list. Right now, you pretty much have to buy an airline ticket and show up at the airport to find out if you’re on the no-fly list–and these days they mostly just subject you to additional screening and interviews and tell you that you were randomly selected. Being able to just attempt to purchase a gun would make it much easier to learn what’s going on. Thanks for the input. But yeah, there are two separate issues here: Is it constitutional, and is it effective? ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2016, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-no-fly-and-terrorist-watch-lists-are-full-of-garbage-data-and-should-be-abandoned/757561/22 "2016-06-18T18:38:05Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > It cracks me up. … > > 2002: of course we need the Patriot act and watch lists and phone taps and no fly lists! Do you want the terrorists to win? Why do you hate America? > > 2016: what? They’re using the Patriot act and watch lists and phone taps and no fly lists to keep guns away from people? Do away with it now! Why do you hate America? Conservatives are still fine with the Patriot Act and the no-fly lists but are unable to deal with the contradiction it leads to which is: Why the fuck would you be ok selling a gun to someone you deem to be a terrorist!? They can’t answer that. Conservatives seem to often find themselves in these contradictions and have no answer for it. Instead they just ignore it. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2016, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-no-fly-and-terrorist-watch-lists-are-full-of-garbage-data-and-should-be-abandoned/757561/23 "2016-06-18T19:11:50Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Well, you’re making my case for me. The best alternative to today’s prisons are more effective prisons, not the elimination of them. The best alternative to a no-fly list is an improved no-fly list. No, I think that misses the point of the analogy. That happens to be what the evidence points to with prisons. We don’t know what the evidence points to with watch lists. The publicly available evidence is that they do more harm than good. I don’t know what the classified evidence shows. But I think making our policy evidence-based is a good thing, which you seemed to be criticizing. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2016, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-no-fly-and-terrorist-watch-lists-are-full-of-garbage-data-and-should-be-abandoned/757561/24 "2016-06-18T19:33:18Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Conservatives are still fine with the Patriot Act and the no-fly lists but are unable to deal with the contradiction it leads to which is: > > Why the fuck would you be ok selling a gun to someone you deem to be a terrorist!? Being on the “no fly list” doesn’t mean you are a terrorist. Not sure why you would think it does. If it were that simple, we could just arrest everyone on the list and be done with it. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2016, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-no-fly-and-terrorist-watch-lists-are-full-of-garbage-data-and-should-be-abandoned/757561/25 "2016-06-18T19:43:23Z")
No. But his point being … … that guy over there? He looks shifty to me. We better not let him on a plane. There’s no telling what he might do. Don’t you want to be safe? What’s that? An AR-15? Of course he can have one of those. Hell, give him two, with those big fucking magazines that hold like a bazillion rounds. Yee haw! What could possibly go wrong? ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2016, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-no-fly-and-terrorist-watch-lists-are-full-of-garbage-data-and-should-be-abandoned/757561/26 "2016-06-18T20:20:35Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Being on the “no fly list” doesn’t mean you are a terrorist. Not sure why you would think it does. > > If it were that simple, we could just arrest everyone on the list and be done with it. Really? Actually not sure what _you_ think it is. > [@](#): > > The No Fly List is a watch list of people the government has designated as known or suspected terrorists and prohibited from flying to and from the United States and over U.S. airspace. It is a subset of a larger watch list, called the Terrorist Screening Database, which is operated by the FBI’s Terrorist Screening Center. > > SOURCE: [Know Your Rights | What to Do If You Think You're on the No Fly List | ACLU](https://www.aclu.org/know-your-rights/what-do-if-you-think-youre-no-fly-list) ---
**Author:** ![Corry\_El](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecae2f/32.png) [@Corry\_El](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Corry_El)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2016, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-no-fly-and-terrorist-watch-lists-are-full-of-garbage-data-and-should-be-abandoned/757561/27 "2016-06-18T20:36:41Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > Being on the list most assuredly does not constitute due process. Due process requires–at the barest minimum–fair notice of the action being taken or the judgment being made and an opportunity to contest it or change your behavior to avoid it. > > To the extent such lists are useful at all, that usefulness is diminished if a five-man cell just have to see which of them is on the list. I agree that a ‘watch list’ which has to tell people upfront that they are on it is less useful. Practically speaking you either have to accept a less useful list or change “fair notice of the action being taken and an opportunity to contest it” to “and/or”. I don’t how it would fare in court but to me personally a ‘no fly or gun’ list which didn’t tell you till you tried to fly or buy one would be OK if you could seek redress. OTOH expecting it to have a big effect on the problem would be naive. But it seems something that could conceivably be compromised on and have some positive effect, arguably. Banning semi-auto box magazine rifles nationally OTOH is simply not gonna happen. Pushing for it is a way of advancing a particular political party’s election campaign, and that’s fine actually, bait and switch (aka ‘the principal or it’ or ‘in the long run we’ll…’) is part of democracy. It’s still not gonna happen. On what the NSA does, everybody talks about that but a vanishingly small % of people have much idea AFAICT. A lot of the details of whether govt agencies are doing the right things (too timid and PC?, too intrusive?) rely on confidence in public institutions. That doesn’t mean no oversight, but confidence the oversight process works and you trust the overseers. There’s not a lot of confidence now. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2016, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-no-fly-and-terrorist-watch-lists-are-full-of-garbage-data-and-should-be-abandoned/757561/28 "2016-06-18T22:20:42Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Really? Actually not sure what _you_ think it is. I don’t know that the ACLU has accurately define the No Fly List, but let’s say they have. That definition does not support your assertion that being not he list makes you “a terrorist”. I’m at a loss as to why you think it does. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2016, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-no-fly-and-terrorist-watch-lists-are-full-of-garbage-data-and-should-be-abandoned/757561/29 "2016-06-18T22:25:33Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I don’t know that the ACLU has accurately define the No Fly List, but let’s say they have. That definition does not support your assertion that being not he list makes you “a terrorist”. It is new to see you wiggle and dance and niggle over how you parse a definition to cling to a position you’ve lost. How about you tell us what the legal definition is in the US to get you on the no-fly list. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2016, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-no-fly-and-terrorist-watch-lists-are-full-of-garbage-data-and-should-be-abandoned/757561/30 "2016-06-18T22:30:29Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > No, I think that misses the point of the analogy. That happens to be what the evidence points to with prisons. We don’t know what the evidence points to with watch lists. The publicly available evidence is that they do more harm than good. I don’t know what the classified evidence shows. But I think making our policy evidence-based is a good thing, which you seemed to be criticizing. No, that’s isn’t what I’m saying at all. I’m saying that we should use evidence to improve the no-fly list, just like we use evidence to improve prisons. What I disagree with is calling a bunch of random criticisms and anecdotes “evidence” and concluding that either system should be abolished. In either case, we shouldn’t throw the baby out with the bath water. I understand, but disagree, with those who have a principled objection to the no-fly list. But when there are practical concerns about the no-fly list, I think we should fix them, not abolish the system, because I think it’s a matter of common sense that the TSA is not a reliable defense against a clever person who wants to blow up an airliner, so we ought to have a few more tools in our defensive toolbox. Like, for example, if someone happens to have had email exchanges with Anwar al Awlaki, fuck that guy, no flights (or guns) for him. I don’t think we ought to have to arrest and convict that guy before he can be prohibited from flying. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2016, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-no-fly-and-terrorist-watch-lists-are-full-of-garbage-data-and-should-be-abandoned/757561/31 "2016-06-18T22:31:08Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Well, you’re making my case for me. The best alternative to today’s prisons are more effective prisons, not the elimination of them. The best alternative to a no-fly list is an improved no-fly list. True, however there is no constitutional right to get on an airplane, but, for better or worse, there is a Constitutional right to own a gun. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2016, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-no-fly-and-terrorist-watch-lists-are-full-of-garbage-data-and-should-be-abandoned/757561/32 "2016-06-18T22:37:30Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > True, however there is no constitutional right to get on an airplane, but, for better or worse, there is a Constitutional right to own a gun. The outcome that people we are not sure can be trusted to be on a commercial airliner are legally entitled to buy a gun is fucking insane. Even Heller acknowledged that the 2nd Amendment doesn’t prohibit some regulation of gun sales; this is a case where it is obvious that we should do some regulating. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2016, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-no-fly-and-terrorist-watch-lists-are-full-of-garbage-data-and-should-be-abandoned/757561/33 "2016-06-18T23:21:14Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > The outcome that people we are not sure can be trusted to be on a commercial airliner are legally entitled to buy a gun is fucking insane. Even Heller acknowledged that the 2nd Amendment doesn’t prohibit some regulation of gun sales; this is a case where it is obvious that we should do some regulating. Regulating is one thing. Prohibition is another. If you want to prohibit, you’re going to need due process. If you can work due process into the No Fly List, then you might have something. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2016, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-no-fly-and-terrorist-watch-lists-are-full-of-garbage-data-and-should-be-abandoned/757561/34 "2016-06-18T23:42:18Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Regulating is one thing. Prohibition is another. If you want to prohibit, you’re going to need due process. If you can work due process into the No Fly List, then you might have something. If you want to live in Libertopia where airlines are free to disregard the no-fly list, and it is clear to all passengers what that airline’s policy is to allow suspected but not convicted terrorists to fly, does that suit your concerns? ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2016, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-no-fly-and-terrorist-watch-lists-are-full-of-garbage-data-and-should-be-abandoned/757561/35 "2016-06-19T00:02:08Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Regulating is one thing. Prohibition is another. If you want to prohibit, you’re going to need due process. If you can work due process into the No Fly List, then you might have something. It is remarkable and positively un-American to me that a US citizen can be on a no-fly list with no legal recourse to get off it. It is obviously an absurd situation we have now where someone is deemed a terrorist threat such that they cannot fly but buying a gun is a-ok. Perhaps the best example ever where the conservative cause comes to odds with itself. I’d laugh if it wasn’t so serious. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2016, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-no-fly-and-terrorist-watch-lists-are-full-of-garbage-data-and-should-be-abandoned/757561/36 "2016-06-19T02:17:37Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > If you want to live in Libertopia where airlines are free to disregard the no-fly list, and it is clear to all passengers what that airline’s policy is to allow suspected but not convicted terrorists to fly, does that suit your concerns? I think you misunderstood. I was talking about applying the No Fly List to gun purchases. Under current US jurisprudence, you can’t prohibit a citizen from buying a gun without due process. The No Fly List, in its current form, doesn’t cut the “due process” mustard. I’m not sure how you would fix that, but if you have an idea as to how to do that, I’d be interested in hearing it. > [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > It is remarkable and positively un-American to me that a US citizen can be on a no-fly list with no legal recourse to get off it. > > It is obviously an absurd situation we have now where someone is deemed a terrorist threat such that they cannot fly but buying a gun is a-ok. Christ on a 747, why are you clinging to this idea that being on the No Fly List deems you a terrorist? It doesn’t. Your own cite disproved that. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2016, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-no-fly-and-terrorist-watch-lists-are-full-of-garbage-data-and-should-be-abandoned/757561/37 "2016-06-19T15:11:45Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I think you misunderstood. I was talking about applying the No Fly List to gun purchases. Under current US jurisprudence, you can’t prohibit a citizen from buying a gun without due process. The No Fly List, in its current form, doesn’t cut the “due process” mustard. If someone is denied a gun purchase for being on the no-fly list, and they feel it’s in error, a judge can get involved. Problem solved. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2016, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-no-fly-and-terrorist-watch-lists-are-full-of-garbage-data-and-should-be-abandoned/757561/38 "2016-06-19T15:30:07Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > If someone is denied a gun purchase for being on the no-fly list, and they feel it’s in error, a judge can get involved. Problem solved. That’s not the way [Due Process](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Due_Process_Clause) works. > [@](#): > > To put it more simply, where an individual is facing a deprivation of life, liberty, or property, procedural due process mandates that he or she is entitled to adequate notice, a hearing, and a neutral judge. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2016, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-no-fly-and-terrorist-watch-lists-are-full-of-garbage-data-and-should-be-abandoned/757561/39 "2016-06-19T15:34:46Z")
Like how searches at airports need a warrant because otherwise we are deprived of our Fourth Amendment liberties? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2016, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-no-fly-and-terrorist-watch-lists-are-full-of-garbage-data-and-should-be-abandoned/757561/40 "2016-06-19T15:38:03Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Like how searches at airports need a warrant because otherwise we are deprived of our Fourth Amendment liberties? No, because the restriction is not on “searches” but on “unreasonable” searches. You don’t have a constitutional right to get on an airplane w/o being searched. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-no-fly-and-terrorist-watch-lists-are-full-of-garbage-data-and-should-be-abandoned/757561.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-no-fly-and-terrorist-watch-lists-are-full-of-garbage-data-and-should-be-abandoned/757561.md?page=3)