# The No-Fly List and the US Constitution. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 21, 2016, 8:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-no-fly-list-and-the-us-constitution/757947 "2016-06-21T08:55:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Jim\_B](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jim_b/32/4338_2.png) [@Jim\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jim_B)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2016, 8:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-no-fly-list-and-the-us-constitution/757947/1 "2016-06-21T08:55:56Z")
I could be wrong, but it seems you can be put on the “No-Fly” list almost on a whim. Some are even put there by mistake. And certain groups, like Muslims, are more likely than others to be targeted, in any event. I guess my question is, Why doesn’t the US Constitution come into play, when it comes to flying? Is flying an airplane a right? Or is it apparently just a privilege? Like driving? My question may seem naïve. But I couldn’t be the first to wonder, I am sure. And they sure don’t teach you anything about it in the media, in any event. :):)🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2016, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-no-fly-list-and-the-us-constitution/757947/2 "2016-06-21T12:12:59Z")
I would not consider flying on commercial airlines a right. In some cases it may even be considered cruel and unusual punishment. ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2016, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-no-fly-list-and-the-us-constitution/757947/3 "2016-06-21T12:19:01Z")
Apparently the ACLU has some info. If you are a US citizen or a US green card holder and you are out of the county and are denied boarding because you have been added to the no fly list, the US government has an obligation to allow you to fly home. The procedures outlined by the ACLU to get home are as follows: > [@](#): > > How to get home if you’ve been denied boarding outside the U.S. > > U.S. citizens have a right under the Fourteenth Amendment of the Constitution to return to U.S. territory after traveling abroad. Lawful permanent residents (also known as “green-card holders”) have a similar right to return to U.S. territory under the Immigration and Nationality Act. Therefore, when a U.S. citizen or green-card holder is denied boarding in a foreign country due to apparent inclusion on the U.S. No Fly List, the U.S. government must help them secure approval to return to the United States via a commercial flight. The government may not use the No Fly List to prevent U.S. persons from returning home to U.S. territory. > > If you are a U.S. citizen or lawful permanent resident denied boarding on a flight to the United States or when en route to the United States, follow the steps below to exercise your right to return home. The information below is based on instructions the government has given the ACLU when we seek to help travelers return home, and the experiences of those travelers. > > 1.Call the Overseas Citizens Services (OCS) office at 1-202-501-4444 to speak to the duty officer. There is a duty officer (as well as an attorney) at this number 24 hours a day. Tell the officer that you were denied boarding on a flight when seeking to return home to the United States by plane, that you seek assistance with repatriation, and that you would like to coordinate your return travel by plane with the government. If your legal representative, family member, or friend located in the United States would like to help you as well, they may contact the same office by calling 1-888-407-4747. > The duty officers at the OCS should be able to help you. If for any reason they do not help you, go to the U.S. Embassy or U.S. Consulate in the country in which you were denied boarding and speak to an officer handling Overseas Citizens Services. (Click here to search for U.S. embassies or consulates near you.) Tell the officer that you were denied boarding on a flight when seeking to return home to the United States by plane, that you seek assistance with repatriation, and that you would like to coordinate your return travel by plane with the government. > > A U.S. official at either OCS or the U.S. Embassy/U.S. Consulate in the country in which you are stranded must help you secure approval to fly home to the United States by commercial air. > > Normally, the OCS official will also ask you to identify one or more itineraries for travel to the United States on a U.S.-based commercial air carrier (such as American Airlines, United Airlines, or Delta Airlines) departing at least two weeks in the future. Thus, to facilitate your return: > •If the country in which you were denied boarding offers direct flights to the United States on a U.S.-based commercial carrier, identify at least a couple of possible itineraries that depart the country at least two weeks in the future. > •If the country in which you were denied boarding does not offer direct flights to the United States, try to find one or more itineraries that permit you to transit through a country from which you can get a direct flight to the United States on U.S.-based commercial air carriers. For example, if you are denied boarding in Sana’a, Yemen, when on the way home to San Francisco, you could locate an itinerary to fly on Yemenia Airways from Sana’a to Dubai, United Arab Emirates; on Lufthansa from Dubai to Frankfurt, Germany; and on American Airlines from Frankfurt to San Francisco. > •If your proposed itinerary requires you to change planes, please choose flights that permit layovers at least three hours long so that you have adequate time for any additional security screenings that the layover airport may require. > > •Present your proposed itinerary (or itineraries) to OCS or the U.S. Embassy or U.S. consulate with as much advance notice as possible. In our experience assisting U.S. persons apparently on the No Fly List, U.S. officials usually require at least two weeks’ notice to secure approvals for flights. > •After a U.S. official has communicated approval for your proposed itinerary, purchase your ticket. > •On the day of your approved flight(s), arrive at the airport at least four hours before departure to permit time for any security screening that may be required. > •If you encounter any problems in securing approval from OCS or a U.S. embassy to fly back to the United States, please call the ACLU National Security Project at 1-212-549-2500 for assistance. > Be aware that FBI agents or other U.S. officials may seek to question or interrogate you while you are abroad, after your denial of boarding, and while you are seeking authorization to fly back to the United States. You have the right to decline any request for a voluntary interview. You also have a right to be represented by counsel during any interview or interrogation in which you voluntarily participate, including while you are abroad, and you may assert that right. > > FBI or other U.S. officials cannot require you to submit to an interview or interrogation as a condition of securing approval to fly back to the United States.In other words, you do not have to participate in any such questioning in order to exercise your right to return to the United States. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2016, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-no-fly-list-and-the-us-constitution/757947/4 "2016-06-21T12:27:36Z")
You don’t have a right to drive on public roads much less fly in public airspace. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2016, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-no-fly-list-and-the-us-constitution/757947/5 "2016-06-21T12:47:45Z")
Aside from whether flying is s right or not (it’s not), the OP identifies a real problem. Namely, that if one os put on it incorrectly, it is way to difficult to rectify. This has been known to be a problem since its inception, but little has been done to fix things. It a gnarly problem in that the government doesn’t want to share all the criteria that can place one on the list, for fear that they tip their hand to terrorists and future terrorists, many of whom might be under investigation unbeknownst to them. I talked about this in one of the gun control threads, and linked to (I think it was) a HuffPo article describing how people may fond themselves on the list. And for me, this is a big problem in linking the the disallowance of guns to people on the No-Fly List. If the people on the list are their because the government has identified them as someone who might cause violence on a plane (Islamic Extremist, ugly drunk or other variety), I think preventing people on such a list from buying guns makes good sense. But as it is now, someone who is not a threat in any way can be denied their right to own a gun because of a mistake…a mistake that can be very difficult to remedy. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2016, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-no-fly-list-and-the-us-constitution/757947/6 "2016-06-21T13:03:17Z")
I have no problem with a no-fly list for foreigners, since no foreigner has the right to come to the US. But American citizens should have due process before being put on any list that carries penalties of any sort. ---
**Author:** ![Chihuahua](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/dec6dc/32.png) [@Chihuahua](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chihuahua)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2016, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-no-fly-list-and-the-us-constitution/757947/7 "2016-06-21T13:07:31Z")
The problem is that there is no oversight or due process, and no transparency in how the decision is made. You are making the decision on the basis of mere suspicion. If you have _evidence_ that a person is a terrorist, then you should obtain a warrant and arrest them… That is to say, give them their due process to determine whether there is, in fact, good cause for sanctions. As it is, these decisions are being made on the basis of mere suspicion and the requirement for evidence (if it even exists) is unknown to the public. Imagine if someone took away your car because they _thought_ you _might_ do something wrong. There are perfectly legitimate reasons to deny someone a driver’s license. If someone is a drunk driver, that is an excellent reason to deny them a license. But that has to be proven in a court of law first. The No Fly list skips this step and goes straight to prohibition. Likewise, there are already a number of things that disqualify a person from owning a gun, such as the Lautenberg Amendment, but these are likewise subject to due process. This permits all manner of abuse. Imagine someone in the TSA who plugs in the name of the guy who slept with his girlfriend, or the names of political activists who disagree with their political ideas. There are already claims that people have been placed on the No Fly list merely because they publicly disagreed with the President. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2016, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-no-fly-list-and-the-us-constitution/757947/8 "2016-06-21T13:10:10Z")
The no-fly list does make sense for foreigners, since we can’t just get arrest warrants for people in terrorist training camps. But yeah, for Americans, there should either be evidence to arrest or nothing. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2016, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-no-fly-list-and-the-us-constitution/757947/9 "2016-06-21T13:15:56Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > You don’t have a right to drive on public roads much less fly in public airspace. Actually with regards to airspace, there is a public right of transit through airspace, just not necessarily on a commercial aircraft. [See 49 U.S. Code § 40103 - Sovereignty and use of airspace](https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/49/40103). It is connected to the [Freedom of Movement](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_movement_under_United_States_law) within the US which is part of the privileges and immunities clause. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2016, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-no-fly-list-and-the-us-constitution/757947/10 "2016-06-21T17:34:22Z")
You certainly have the Freedom of Movement. > **[Freedom of movement under United States law](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_movement_under_United_States_law)** > > Freedom of movement under United States law is governed primarily by the Privileges and Immunities Clause of the United States Constitution which states, "The Citizens of each State shall be entitled to all Privileges and Immunities of Citizens in the several States." Since the circuit court ruling in Corfield v. Coryell, 6 Fed. Cas. 546 (1823), freedom of movement has been judicially recognized as a fundamental Constitutional right. In Paul v. Virginia, 75 U.S. 168 (1869), the court defined f... What’s needed here is Judicial overview, just like when a Judge issues a warrant. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2016, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-no-fly-list-and-the-us-constitution/757947/11 "2016-06-21T18:40:14Z")
I think we should trust that the No-Fly List is properly put together so that we can use it to prevent people from buying guns. I’d be fine tying the gun purchase ban list to other lists as well ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2016, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-no-fly-list-and-the-us-constitution/757947/12 "2016-06-21T18:41:25Z")
> [@YogSothoth](#): > > I think we should trust that the No-Fly List is properly put together so that we can use it to prevent people from buying guns. Trust the government!- without any oversight at all. Suuuuure. What country are\* you \*living in, pal? ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2016, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-no-fly-list-and-the-us-constitution/757947/13 "2016-06-21T19:09:56Z")
> [@YogSothoth](#): > > I think we should trust that the **No-Fly List is properly put together** so that we can use it to prevent people from buying guns. I’d be fine tying the gun purchase ban list to other lists as well It’s already been shown that it’s not. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2016, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-no-fly-list-and-the-us-constitution/757947/14 "2016-06-21T20:03:11Z")
> [@YogSothoth](#): > > I think we should trust that the No-Fly List is properly put together so that we can use it to prevent people from buying guns. I’d be fine tying the gun purchase ban list to other lists as well What other rights would you be ok with stripping from the people on the government’s secret list? Right to vote? Free speech? Religious freedom? Association? Would you be ok imprisoning everyone on the list, say at Guantanamo Bay? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2016, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-no-fly-list-and-the-us-constitution/757947/15 "2016-06-21T20:09:43Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > What other rights would you be ok with stripping from the people on the government’s secret list? Right to vote? Free speech? Religious freedom? Association? Would you be ok imprisoning everyone on the list, say at Guantanamo Bay? I think that reasoning here is that “GUNS ARE TEH EVIL!”, thus anything which prevents them from being bought by _anyone_ is a Good Thing. Who gives a rats-ass about Civil Liberties as longs as it’s guns being prohibited. Of course ISIL recruits on the Internet. So, let us say you can be banned from using the Internet if you’re on that list. Or attending a place of worship. Would that be OK? ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2016, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-no-fly-list-and-the-us-constitution/757947/16 "2016-06-21T20:58:26Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > It’s already been shown that it’s not. I think some mistakes here and there doesn’t mean that people being put on the list weren’t generally properly vetted. To me its a matter of consistency in law enforcement and efficiency. If we’re saying these people are suspicious enough to ban them from a type of traveling that they typically have the right to, then it should follow that they should also be banned from owning arms. I’d tie the No Fly list and the gun restriction list together and then fix what needs to be fixed. Sadly, too many people think that by nitpicking every line of any rule and regulation prevents only gun regulation, when in fact it can be used to prevent any law enforcement actions from occurring. Its like those people who continuously file frivolous lawsuits. The court system allows them to do that, but it doesn’t mean what they do isn’t needlessly disruptive and an abuse of the system. If you’re on any kind of suspicious government list, whether it be a No Fly one, or a terrorist watch list, or probation, or mental health, or whatever, that can affect your desire to use a gun for violence, then you should be prevented from getting a gun. Get yourself off that list and then you can have a gun > [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > What other rights would you be ok with stripping from the people on the government’s secret list? Right to vote? Free speech? Religious freedom? Association? Would you be ok imprisoning everyone on the list, say at Guantanamo Bay? You’re trying to use a pointless non-sequitor to squash debate. There is no right-to-vote list (there are lists in some states where current and former felons can’t vote, but I’m sure you didn’t mean that or you would have said it), there is no “free speech” list. And even if there were, those don’t point to violent or potentially violent crimes that would be magnified if a person would be allowed to buy a gun. A No Fly list is a legitimate list where people on it have triggered valid concerns with law enforcement that they feel warrant the government to legally deny them a right to travel. Other lists like I’ve mentioned above are perfectly valid. Nobody’s equating imprisonment to being on a list except YOU, and you’re doing it because you want to exaggerate the fears of any type of valid gun control because you value your ability to cause violence more than actually stopping it ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2016, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-no-fly-list-and-the-us-constitution/757947/17 "2016-06-21T21:12:54Z")
> [@YogSothoth](#): > > I think we should trust that the No-Fly List is properly put together so that we can use it to prevent people from buying guns. I’d be fine tying the gun purchase ban list to other lists as well I think we should trust that the No-Fly List is properly put together so that we can use it to prevent people from voting. I’d be fine tying the voting ban list to other lists as well ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2016, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-no-fly-list-and-the-us-constitution/757947/18 "2016-06-21T21:14:48Z")
> [@YogSothoth](#): > > I think some mistakes here and there doesn’t mean that people being put on the list weren’t generally properly vetted. To me its a matter of consistency in law enforcement and efficiency. If we’re saying these people are suspicious enough to ban them from a type of traveling that they typically have the right to, then it should follow that they should also be banned from owning arms. I’d tie the No Fly list and the gun restriction list together and then fix what needs to be fixed. Sadly, too many people think that by nitpicking every line of any rule and regulation prevents only gun regulation, when in fact it can be used to prevent any law enforcement actions from occurring. Its like those people who continuously file frivolous lawsuits. The court system allows them to do that, but it doesn’t mean what they do isn’t needlessly disruptive and an abuse of the system. If you’re on any kind of suspicious government list, whether it be a No Fly one, or a terrorist watch list, or probation, or mental health, or whatever, that can affect your desire to use a gun for violence, then you should be prevented from getting a gun. Get yourself off that list and then you can have a gun [Notable cases of mistaken denials](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Fly_List#Notable_cases). Note these are not every single one. > [@](#): > > Numerous children (including many under the age of five, and some under the age of one) have generated false positives. > > Daniel Brown, a United States Marine returning from Iraq, was prevented from boarding a flight home in April 2006 because his name matched one on the No Fly List. > > Canadian journalist Patrick Martin has been frequently interrogated while traveling, because of a suspicious individual, believed to be a former Provisional Irish Republican Army bomb-maker, with the same name. The problem is there is just a list of names, no other identifying information is included. And getting off is near impossible even if anyone tells you you’re on it. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2016, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-no-fly-list-and-the-us-constitution/757947/19 "2016-06-21T21:15:41Z")
[QUOTE=YogSothoth;19422431 If we’re saying these people are suspicious enough to ban them from a type of traveling that they typically have the right to, then it should follow that they should also be banned from owning arms… If you’re on any kind of suspicious government list, whether it be a No Fly one, or a terrorist watch list, or probation, or mental health, or whatever, that can affect your desire to use a gun for violence, then you should be prevented from getting a gun. … A No Fly list is a legitimate list where people on it have triggered valid concerns with law enforcement that they feel warrant the government to legally deny them a right to travel. [/QUOTE] We’re not saying that, the lists are invalid for _both_ purposes and a violation of human rights. Not unless that list is subject to Due Process. J. Edgar Hoover and Joseph McCarthy had “lists” too of “commies and pinkos and other undesirables” including anti-war protesters and civil rights leaders . In fact some of the same social justice protesters have shown up on the NoFly list. > **[The History Of The FBI's Secret 'Enemies' List](https://www.npr.org/2012/02/14/146862081/the-history-of-the-fbis-secret-enemies-list)** > > As J. Edgar Hoover became increasingly worried about communist threats against America, he instructed the bureau to conduct secret intelligence operations against anyone deemed "subversive." A new book, Enemies: A History of the FBI, details those... A No Fly list is a illegitimate list where people on it have triggered valid and very not-so-valid concerns with law enforcement, with no oversight and where people can be put on the list\* for any reason at all. \* ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2016, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-no-fly-list-and-the-us-constitution/757947/20 "2016-06-21T21:17:10Z")
I think tying extending the no-fly list to make it so people can’t buy guns to be a great idea. I 100% agree the no due-process part is a real problem for the no-fly list which is why I think it is great to link it to gun ownership. If it was it would force the government to bring due-process procedures to the no-fly list for US citizens. It also has the bonus that is it hard for congresscritters to explain how it is they will keep a terrorist off a plane but totally let them go buy guns legally to carry out their attacks. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-no-fly-list-and-the-us-constitution/757947.md?page=2)