# The North Korean Problem **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 21, 2002, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-north-korean-problem/144272 "2002-12-21T21:36:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2002, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-north-korean-problem/144272/121 "2002-12-27T02:28:46Z")
> [@](#): > > Diplomacy wasn’t even really an option it that case and at that time. As this 9/26/01 article demonstrates, Bush and friends tried every diplomatic approach they could think of to pry al Qaeda out of Afghanistan without resorting to invasion: [Bush hopes for cooperation from Afghan citizens](http://timesargus.nybor.com/Story/34479.html) > [@](#): > > Bush, answering questions at the White House, said the best way to bring those responsible for the terrorist attacks on Sept. 11 to justice was “to ask for the cooperation of citizens within Afghanistan who may be tired of having the Taliban in place.” > … > Since the attacks, the administration has stepped up contacts with the Northern Alliance, a loose anti-Taliban coalition that controls 10 percent of Afghanistan. Cowboy rhetoric notwithstanding, Bush deserves some credit for that reasoned approach under what were very trying circumstances. Pretending diplomacy never happened does the president a disservice. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2002, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-north-korean-problem/144272/122 "2002-12-27T13:29:45Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by **elucidator** _ - > > You rude bastard! How dare you insinutate that you place friends and family above the Board! I’ve had quite enough of your impertinence, sir! My second shall call on you presently. In the immortal words of Charles Dickens, “I thank you for the warning, and I will give particular instructions to the housemaid to lock up the spoons.” 😉 I am in the process of installing pop-up blocking software, but would like to return to this thread to read it in detail. This is a situation in which - I am not sure how the US should proceed, - I am quite sure that bashing Clinton will not help - I am also quite sure that bashing Bush will not help - I am interested in concrete suggestions on how the US should proceed under present circumstances. As has been observed, this is a tough one. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2002, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-north-korean-problem/144272/123 "2002-12-27T13:51:15Z")
Maybe they just want to be left alone. Has that occurred to you? They hear a speech on an axis of evil, including Iraq, North Korea and Iran. Next, preperation for an attack on Iraq is in full swing. Not that odd for them to think:’ Oh, oh, we’re going to be next.’ What they are saying is: ‘Back off, we have the teeth to bite back, if you attack us.’ Although the damage has already been done, you threatened _them_ first, showing attempts at repair might defuse the situation somewhat. In that light, bashing Bush for threatening them, could be helpful. A reassurance that you have no intention of attacking them after you’re done with Iraq, might also help. Although I doubt whether that would be very believable, if you do indeed go ahead and attack Iraq. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2002, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-north-korean-problem/144272/124 "2002-12-27T14:57:22Z")
> [@](#): > > A reassurance that you have no intention of attacking them after you’re done with Iraq might also help. Or at the very least a reassurance that we won’t attack with nukes, as has been suggested here. Even the implication of that can be interpreted as a violation of the nuclear non-proliferation treaty; i.e. legal cover for a bomb making program by the North. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2002, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-north-korean-problem/144272/125 "2002-12-27T15:43:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Squink \* > **Prove it.** Here is the [timeline](http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2002/12/24/MN119919.DTL) as I understand it. I can’t find a specific cite about when the North Koreans started violating their agreement, but a nuclear weapons program can’t be started on a moment’s notice. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Squink \* > \*\* > Even if your allegation _were_ true, what good has it done us to confront the bastards with it ? We already knew they couldn’t be trusted. How does it make things better to shout that from the rooftops and sing it in the streets ? We’ve certainly managed to provoke them into restarting their reactors. Is that somehow a good thing ? \*\* I don’t think we should be continuing to supply them with fuel and food if they are violating the treaty. And I don’t think we can cut off the fuel oil supplies and stop building the civilian power reactor without giving some reason to the rest of the world as to why we are doing it, so the North Korean violations of the treaty would have to be public knowledge anyway. So pretending it isn’t happening is both counterproductive, and impossible. I don’t think we provoked them into restarting their reactors. They want the plutonium to build warheads. From their point of view, the best outcome would have been for the US to send them fuel oil and food while they continue with their nuclear arms development project. Then they announce to the world that they have more nukes, and expect to be treated as a full member of the nuclear club, and threaten Japan and/or South Korea if they don’t get massive international aid, diplomatic recognition, and everything else they could wish for. We just tipped their hand a bit early - so the situation must be dealt with while they have fewer bombs than they like. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Milossarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Milossarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Milossarian)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2002, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-north-korean-problem/144272/126 "2002-12-27T16:14:57Z")
Squink: > [@](#): > > \*\*The issue here is Bush’s policy towards North Korea. You’ve yet to present any evidence that 9/11 caused any change in that. I don’t think you’ll be able to. You’re welcome to drag Iraq, Afghanistan and the price of cream cheese into the discussion, but it won’t do anything towards showing that Bush’s policy towards North Korea was either wise, or affected in any way by the events of 9/11. \*\* From George W. Bush’s State of the Union address, Jan. 29, 2002 > [@](#): > > Our nation will continue to be steadfast and patient and persistent in the pursuit of two great objectives. First, we will shut down terrorist camps, disrupt terrorist plans, and bring terrorists to justice. And, second, we must prevent the terrorists and regimes who seek chemical, biological or nuclear weapons from threatening the United States and the world. > \ > Our second goal is to prevent regimes that sponsor terror from threatening America or our friends and allies with weapons of mass destruction. Some of these regimes have been pretty quiet since September the 11th. But we know their true nature. North Korea is a regime arming with missiles and weapons of mass destruction, while starving its citizens. > > Iran aggressively pursues these weapons and exports terror, while an unelected few repress the Iranian people’s hope for freedom. > > Iraq continues to flaunt its hostility toward America and to support terror. The Iraqi regime has plotted to develop anthrax, and nerve gas, and nuclear weapons for over a decade. This is a regime that has already used poison gas to murder thousands of its own citizens – leaving the bodies of mothers huddled over their dead children. This is a regime that agreed to international inspections – then kicked out the inspectors. This is a regime that has something to hide from the civilized world. > > States like these, and their terrorist allies, constitute an axis of evil, arming to threaten the peace of the world. By seeking weapons of mass destruction, these regimes pose a grave and growing danger. They could provide these arms to terrorists, giving them the means to match their hatred. They could attack our allies or attempt to blackmail the United States. In any of these cases, the price of indifference would be catastrophic. > > We will work closely with our coalition to deny terrorists and their state sponsors the materials, technology, and expertise to make and deliver weapons of mass destruction. We will develop and deploy effective missile defenses to protect America and our allies from sudden attack. (Applause.) And all nations should know: America will do what is necessary to ensure our nation’s security. > > We’ll be deliberate, yet time is not on our side. I will not wait on events, while dangers gather. I will not stand by, as peril draws closer and closer. The United States of America will not permit the world’s most dangerous regimes to threaten us with the world’s most destructive weapons. (Applause.) > > Our war on terror is well begun, but it is only begun. This campaign may not be finished on our watch – yet it must be and it will be waged on our watch. > > We can’t stop short. If we stop now – leaving terror camps intact and terror states unchecked – our sense of security would be false and temporary. History has called America and our allies to action, and it is both our responsibility and our privilege to fight freedom’s fight. (Applause.) > \ > The next priority of my budget is to do everything possible to protect our citizens and strengthen our nation against the ongoing threat of another attack. Time and distance from the events of September the 11th will not make us safer unless we act on its lessons. America is no longer protected by vast oceans. We are protected from attack only by vigorous action abroad, and increased vigilance at home. By all means. read the entire speech, for context. Then tell me with a straight face Bush would have called those three countries “an Axis of Evil” were it not for 9/11. Tell me with a straight face that the entire thrust of going after rogue regimes developing weapons of mass destruction isn’t couched in a new spirit of America needing to be diligent about its own national security, given the realities that 9/11 made so abundantly clear. ---
**Author:** ![Knighthammer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Knighthammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knighthammer)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2002, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-north-korean-problem/144272/127 "2002-12-27T18:30:33Z")
> [@](#): > > Or at the very least a reassurance that we won’t attack with nukes, as has been suggested here. Even the implication of that can be interpreted as a violation of the nuclear non-proliferation treaty; i.e. legal cover for a bomb making program by the North. Funny thing is this demand for a non-aggression treaty is probably whats going to get North Korea into a war. I can’t believe so many people fall for their games. North Korea is just taking advantage of the current situation between the US and South Korea, and the possible conflict in Iraq. They think US forces are going to be too busy with Iraq and the South Koreans too busy with their inferiority complex to deal with them. In case many haven’t noticed the US hasn’t taken a very agressive stance towards them so far yet for some reason its making NK even bolder. This is called extortion. Something I’m sure the US does all the time but the problem is NK is in no position to make demands to the US. Many have made the argument that the US provoked North Korea and gave them the need to defend themselves with nuclear weapons. Well I’m not sure the North Korean government is that stupid. For one it would give the US an excuse to attack them. 2nd any developing nuclear weapons program with just a hand full of active nukes is just big target in such a small country. Any use of them by North Korea would justify to the use of nukes by the US. Considering the fact that North Korea wouldn’t be able to actually reach the US with its current missile technology they would have to target a couple of neighboring civilian populations. I’m sure that will gain them some allies. The US retalliation would destroy their entire country and armed forces. They can’t be that stupid. So North Korea is up to something else and I don’t suggest South Koreans or Americans play their little games or give them concessions. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2002, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-north-korean-problem/144272/128 "2002-12-27T18:41:04Z")
> [@](#): > > They hear a speech on an axis of evil, including Iraq, North Korea and Iran. Next, preperation for an attack on Iraq is in full swing. > Not that odd for them to think:’ Oh, oh, we’re going to be next.’ > > What they are saying is: ‘Back off, we have the teeth to bite back, if you attack us.’ And they were clairvoyant and knew that Bush would be elected half a decade before he was? Because that’s probably how long they have been violating their own agreement and secretly building a program to develop nuclear weapons. I find it amazing that some people are willing to instantly ascribe terrible motives to their own government, but are willing to assume the best about vicious dictators who have murdered hundreds of thousands of people. ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2002, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-north-korean-problem/144272/129 "2002-12-27T19:05:45Z")
Who is assuming any virtuous motives from the North Koreans? What I find amazing is that some people are so effortlessly turn a blind eye to _anything_ their own government does. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2002, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-north-korean-problem/144272/130 "2002-12-27T19:09:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Milo requests: Then tell me with a straight face Bush would have called those three countries “an Axis of Evil” were it not for 9/11. This is not policy, it is bombastic rhetoric. Policy towards North Kporea was essentially unaltered by 9/11. We refused to talk with North Korea before 9/11, and we refuse to talk with them after 9/11. Nothing has changed. Is that straight enough for you ? ---
**Author:** ![Knighthammer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Knighthammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knighthammer)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2002, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-north-korean-problem/144272/131 "2002-12-27T19:28:28Z")
> [@](#): > > Who is assuming any virtuous motives from the North Koreans? What I find amazing is that some people are so effortlessly turn a blind eye to anything their own government does. Whom is assuming? Many are assuming North Korea is just defending itself. Based on what that speech? What is the US suppose to bow down to North Korea and pretend they are saints so they won’t build nuclear weapons. Everyone wants the US to take responsibility for its actions. Thats good but the problem is they want the US to take responsibilty for others actions as well. If the US is involved in a situation in anyway their involvement is usually blamed for whatever goes wrong. If North Korea builds nukes, its their fault and their responsibilty. I’m sure if North Korea nukes every South Korean on the penninsula the US will get blamed for it too. Why don’t those standards apply both ways?? This could more justifiably be seen as North Korea trying to provoke the US. ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2002, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-north-korean-problem/144272/132 "2002-12-27T19:35:41Z")
Fascinating how you feel you can threaten anyone on this planet, with impunity, and then regard a **response** as a provocation. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2002, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-north-korean-problem/144272/133 "2002-12-27T19:37:30Z")
You mean the **response** that started several years before the ‘threat’? That response? ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2002, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-north-korean-problem/144272/134 "2002-12-27T19:43:00Z")
No, the response ‘We have nuclear weapons and are willing to use them.’ ---
**Author:** ![Knighthammer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Knighthammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knighthammer)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2002, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-north-korean-problem/144272/135 "2002-12-27T20:21:24Z")
> [@](#): > > Fascinating how you feel you can threaten anyone on this planet, with impunity, and then regard a response as a provocation. Haha. I never said that. You think you know my attitude towards US policy already don’t you. Thats sad. I am a very objective person. I just observe that many people critical of the US are hipocrates. They will criticise the US for doing something and not apply those standards to everyone else. That was just a dumb response. I rarely support US military actions. I certainly don’t support it in Iraq. Such a waste of time. Read what I what said. You are just proving my point. You act as though everything is a reaction to what the US does. The US doesn’t react to anyone else. If North korea can be provoked this vaguely and easily then accordingly the US should nuking people all over the planet. Its a lame excuse and the US shouldn’t be able to use it either. ---
**Author:** ![Daoloth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/82dd89/32.png) [@Daoloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Daoloth)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2002, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-north-korean-problem/144272/136 "2002-12-27T20:35:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Progressive\_left \* > \*\*If the United States has nuclear weapons then why can’t North Korea? \*\* Because North Korea is a rogue nation that will sell its wares to any buyer? ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2002, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-north-korean-problem/144272/137 "2002-12-27T21:36:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Knighthammer \* > \*\* You act as though everything is a reaction to what the US does. The US doesn’t react to anyone else. If North korea can be provoked this vaguely and easily then accordingly the US should nuking people all over the planet. Its a lame excuse and the US shouldn’t be able to use it either. \*\* Yes, true, it is a reaction. A reaction to an attack, on your soil, by Al Qaeda. But a weird reaction. A lash out at countries that had absolutely nothing to do with it. Do you call that speech vague? We were not to take it seriously? The massing of troops for an Iraq invasion isn’t vague to me. I don’t think it’s vague to the North Koreans. For them the threat is real, so they’re sending out a warning. ‘We are not going to be the pushovers, like you think the Iraqis to be. We have nukes, think again.’ ---
**Author:** ![Knighthammer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Knighthammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knighthammer)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2002, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-north-korean-problem/144272/138 "2002-12-27T21:36:29Z")
> [@](#): > > If the United States has nuclear weapons then why can’t North Korea? Naw its a matter of opinion what country is a rogue nation. Its kinda of like that stupid UN thing. There is this silly idea that if you blow up one side of the world it will actually effect the other. If every country on the planet had nukes there is no question the planet would be devasted. If enough nukes detonate the effects will effect everyone. So keeping nuclear weapons from spreading is necessary for everyones survival. Bot that there isn’t other reasons to prevent the spread. Here’s something more logical for you. North Korea and South Korea are technically still at war. The US is allied with South Korea. What kind of idiot would let his enemies develop nuclear weapons and provide him concessions at the same time. Very simple concept. Its not really a moral issue about rogue nations its just common sense. Don’t let your enemy develope weapons of mass destruction to use against you. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Ryan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7feea3/32.png) [@The\_Ryan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Ryan)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2002, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-north-korean-problem/144272/139 "2002-12-27T21:45:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by elucidator \* > I presume you are an athiest? If not, you should reconsider one or another of your positions. I think that the implication of that comment is highly insulting to atheists. ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2002, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-north-korean-problem/144272/140 "2002-12-27T21:46:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Knighthammer \* > \*\*Here’s something more logical for you. North Korea and South Korea are technically still at war. The US is allied with South Korea. What kind of idiot would let his enemies develop nuclear weapons and provide him concessions at the same time. Very simple concept. Its not really a moral issue about rogue nations its just common sense. Don’t let your enemy develope weapons of mass destruction to use against you. \*\* Now _that_ does make sense. Just state the situation without all the moral claptrap and patriotic circus. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-north-korean-problem/144272.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-north-korean-problem/144272.md?page=8)