# The NSA is collecting America’s phone data. Again. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 6, 2013, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nsa-is-collecting-america-s-phone-data-again/660262 "2013-06-06T02:11:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2013, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nsa-is-collecting-america-s-phone-data-again/660262/21 "2013-06-06T15:34:43Z")
> [@newcomer](#): > > Obama responded with a letter that explains everything: > > [A Letter to Verizon Customers | The New Yorker](http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/borowitzreport/2013/06/a-letter-to-verizon-customers.html?mbid=nl_Borowitz%20(134)) Cute. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2013, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nsa-is-collecting-america-s-phone-data-again/660262/22 "2013-06-06T15:35:35Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Did he actually do any of those three things when it comes to what the NSA is doing? Renewed, yes. I’m not sure why this is a scandal; it’s been going on since 2002 and the government has been able to obtain phone records without a warrant since before I was born.\* This surveillance seems rather pointless and I’m not exactly in favor of it, but whatever, I’m not a Verizon subscriber. 😉 \*Not the content of the call, but the same information being collected here: [who’s being called and when](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smith_v._Maryland). ---
**Author:** ![Age\_Quod\_Agis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d07c76/32.png) [@Age\_Quod\_Agis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Age_Quod_Agis)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2013, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nsa-is-collecting-america-s-phone-data-again/660262/23 "2013-06-06T15:36:43Z")
> [@DCnDC](#): > > And is what they plan on doing with this information any more or less sinister than what Verizon is doing with it already? To my knowledge, Verizon isn’t planning any criminal prosecutions, drone strikes, or Gitmo detentions. But then again, I’m with Sprint, so I’m not sure what’s in Verizon’s user contracts. ---
**Author:** ![I\_Made\_French\_Toast\_For\_You](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/858c86/32.png) [@I\_Made\_French\_Toast\_For\_You](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Made_French_Toast_For_You)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2013, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nsa-is-collecting-america-s-phone-data-again/660262/24 "2013-06-06T15:41:33Z")
The Obama administration made a statement: > [@](#): > > [It’s] a critical tool in protecting the nation from terrorist threats to the United States Dianne Feinstein just said something similar, adding that the phone records could be used to track future terrorists. All of this is basically what Bush said when the last NSA surveillance news broke. > [@Marley23](#): > > But let’s not get bogged down with boring legal and Constitutional questions and privacy issues; let’s snark on Obama. That’ll be much more productive. I think we can do both. It may be perfectly legal, but of course that doesn’t mean it’s ethical or effective. Some problems I have with this are 1) why the secret _Foreign_ Intelligence Surveillance Act court has authority over entirely _domestic_ surveillance, and why we should care about the FISA court’s decisions anyway when they seem to [approve almost every warrant](http://epic.org/privacy/wiretap/stats/fisa_stats.html) the government asks for, 2) why the government feels the need to keep this secret if they’re “just protecting us from terrorists,” while we are not free to keep secrets such as “who we call every day,” and 3) that, rationally, the government cannot possibly obtain a warrant for such broad surveillance of a population, and that the legal interpretations of the Patriot Act are getting more and more overblown, only now it’s happening in the FISA court. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2013, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nsa-is-collecting-america-s-phone-data-again/660262/25 "2013-06-06T15:49:35Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > We’re well into year 5 of the Obama regime. “I just HAD to renew, expand, and defend all of this stuff that Dick Cheney foisted on me even though I detest it so” stopped working a long time ago. He does? He’s used the drone program to full effect, killing way more people than his predecessor, and certainly allowed use of sections of the Act without a blink. My point is that this thing is a monster that can be used as an umbrella for questionable practices. What president wouldn’t want that in his pocket? Problem is, a truly unscrupulous president can cause a lot of harm with it, just like another may use it to good effect. It’s poorly crafted and way too broad. ---
**Author:** ![DCnDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dcndc/32/2842_2.png) [@DCnDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DCnDC)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2013, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nsa-is-collecting-america-s-phone-data-again/660262/26 "2013-06-06T15:55:49Z")
> [@Age\_Quod\_Agis](#): > > To my knowledge, Verizon isn’t planning any criminal prosecutions, drone strikes, or Gitmo detentions. But then again, I’m with Sprint, so I’m not sure what’s in Verizon’s user contracts. It’s been a while since I looked at it, but I’m pretty sure those are all in my FiOS contract. I was a day late on a monthly payment once and I could swear there was a drone circling my house that morning. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2013, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nsa-is-collecting-america-s-phone-data-again/660262/27 "2013-06-06T15:57:39Z")
> [@I\_Made\_French\_Toast\_For\_You](#): > > It may be perfectly legal, but of course that doesn’t mean it’s ethical or effective. But can it be shown that it _isn’t_ effective without revealing too much information? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2013, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nsa-is-collecting-america-s-phone-data-again/660262/28 "2013-06-06T16:01:48Z")
> [@I\_Made\_French\_Toast\_For\_You](#): > > I think we can do both. It may be perfectly legal, but of course that doesn’t mean it’s ethical or effective. Right. I’m not saying it’s one or the other; I was just answering the question about legality. The idea of secret courts is uncomfortable in the first place and a secret court that basically rubber stamps everything is that much worse. > [@Czarcasm](#): > > But can it be shown that it _isn’t_ effective without revealing too much information? There should be some kind of affirmative reason to think it is effective. ‘There’s no evidence it’s not effective’ is pretty shaky, and ‘we can’t show you evidence it’s not effective because that’s a national security secret’ is worse. ---
**Author:** ![I\_Made\_French\_Toast\_For\_You](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/858c86/32.png) [@I\_Made\_French\_Toast\_For\_You](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Made_French_Toast_For_You)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2013, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nsa-is-collecting-america-s-phone-data-again/660262/29 "2013-06-06T16:09:26Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Renewed, yes. I’m not sure why this is a scandal; it’s been going on since 2002 and the government has been able to obtain phone records without a warrant since before I was born.\* This surveillance seems rather pointless and I’m not exactly in favor of it, but whatever, I’m not a Verizon subscriber. 😉 If I were a gambling man, I’d wager that ALL the phone companies are giving the government their data, but we only know about the Verizon order. Unless Verizon is the go-to phone company for terrorists or something. ---
**Author:** ![babygoat666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/2acd7d/32.png) [@babygoat666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/babygoat666)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2013, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nsa-is-collecting-america-s-phone-data-again/660262/30 "2013-06-06T16:15:18Z")
Did I miss something? Or what is making you all think that this practice ever stopped once it started? ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2013, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nsa-is-collecting-america-s-phone-data-again/660262/31 "2013-06-06T16:43:41Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Is what the NSA is doing illegal? Why does that matter? “Is it right or wrong?” is the important question here. And outside of specific troop movements and lists of undercover CIA agents, nothing the US Government does should be secret. I work for an employee-owned company, which makes me an “employee owner”. Every Friday we sit in on a meeting that is broadcast worldwide to everyone in the company, detailing confidential information about where our company stands. Sales figures, profits, new products, customer complaints, we get it all. Well in a representative democracy, we are all “citizen owners” of this country. Outside of information that could directly get someone killed, we should be privy to every single thing this government does. And once the danger is over, we should be able to know that information too. This “we’re spying on you but you can’t find out or know why or tell anybody about it” bullshit has got to stop. How can citizens be informed voters if they don’t even know what their government actually _does_? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2013, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nsa-is-collecting-america-s-phone-data-again/660262/32 "2013-06-06T16:44:12Z")
> [@I\_Made\_French\_Toast\_For\_You](#): > > If I were a gambling man, I’d wager that ALL the phone companies are giving the government their data, but we only know about the Verizon order. Unless Verizon is the go-to phone company for terrorists or something. The Verizon bit was a joke. I’m sure all the phone companies have been ordered to turn this stuff over too. ---
**Author:** ![Age\_Quod\_Agis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d07c76/32.png) [@Age\_Quod\_Agis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Age_Quod_Agis)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2013, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nsa-is-collecting-america-s-phone-data-again/660262/33 "2013-06-06T16:57:31Z")
> [@I\_Made\_French\_Toast\_For\_You](#): > > If I were a gambling man, I’d wager that ALL the phone companies are giving the government their data, but we only know about the Verizon order. Unless Verizon is the go-to phone company for terrorists or something. This is just a completely WAG – and it doesn’t imply that I think the FISA warrant was a good idea – but if my math is correct (read: “This is probably going to be wrong”), then the FISA warrant was approved/effective 10 days after the Boston Marathon bombs. So maybe Verizon is the go-to phone company for people suspected of participating in the Boston Marathon bombs? Or maybe they sent similar subpoenas to other phone companies, and we aren’t aware of those yet. Here’s what I find so odd about this. One of the reasons I have trouble mentally with objecting to the idea of the government tapping _everyone’s_ phones is that, with that much information, the government is unlikely to be able to do any detailed analysis with all of it. There’s no way they’re going to be able to review all of those records substantively on any minute level. So I’ve been sitting here spitballing, trying to think of a reason the government would even _want_ all these records, I’m coming up with very little. Maybe they’re trying to create charts of everyone the Boston bombers called, then track everyone those people called, then track who those people called, etc. And they don’t want to have to go back and get a new subpoena for each individual phone number, so they tried to do it all in one big subpoena request? Again, that doesn’t imply that I think such an action would be a particularly good idea, but I’d love to hear some thoughts on why the gov’t would even want that much info. ---
**Author:** ![I\_Made\_French\_Toast\_For\_You](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/858c86/32.png) [@I\_Made\_French\_Toast\_For\_You](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Made_French_Toast_For_You)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2013, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nsa-is-collecting-america-s-phone-data-again/660262/34 "2013-06-06T16:58:12Z")
> [@babygoat666](#): > > Did I miss something? Or what is making you all think that this practice ever stopped once it started? I’m sure many people assumed that, once Obama entered office, certain Bush-era practices would be halted. And most people assume, by default, that the government doesn’t spy on them. As far as I know Bush never confirmed the existence of the NSA call database, and Obama hasn’t either. It’s a secret – the public isn’t supposed to know. The court order explicitly says: keep this secret. Nevertheless, Feinstein [all but confirmed](http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/06/court-order-verizon-call-data-dianne-feinstein?guni=Network%20front:network-front%20main-2%20Special%20trail:Network%20front%20-%20special%20trail:Position1:sublinks) that this has been the case since 2006. I’ll summarize: “What’s everyone so riled up for? We’ve been doing this for years! It’s to protect you from terrorists! I can’t believe you guys didn’t know about it!” ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2013, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nsa-is-collecting-america-s-phone-data-again/660262/35 "2013-06-06T16:59:37Z")
I assume they track calls to and from known terrorist/whatever numbers, and then track the other numbers that _those_ numbers are calling, and so on. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2013, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nsa-is-collecting-america-s-phone-data-again/660262/36 "2013-06-06T17:02:53Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > > [@Czarcasm](#): > > > > I apologize for going off-topic. > > Just don’t let it happen again. Now give the Moderator a “harumph”! ---
**Author:** ![sciurophobic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cab0a1/32.png) [@sciurophobic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sciurophobic)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2013, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nsa-is-collecting-america-s-phone-data-again/660262/37 "2013-06-06T17:04:45Z")
Great. Now the NSA knows I call Domino’s more than I call my mother. ---
**Author:** ![babygoat666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/2acd7d/32.png) [@babygoat666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/babygoat666)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2013, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nsa-is-collecting-america-s-phone-data-again/660262/38 "2013-06-06T17:09:43Z")
> [@I\_Made\_French\_Toast\_For\_You](#): > > I’m sure many people assumed that, once Obama entered office, certain Bush-era practices would be halted. A pretty naive assumption, don’t you think? ---
**Author:** ![Age\_Quod\_Agis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d07c76/32.png) [@Age\_Quod\_Agis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Age_Quod_Agis)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2013, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nsa-is-collecting-america-s-phone-data-again/660262/39 "2013-06-06T17:15:54Z")
> [@sciurophobic](#): > > Great. Now the NSA knows I call Domino’s more than I call my mother. I’ve never been more happy that my mom doesn’t work for the NSA. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2013, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nsa-is-collecting-america-s-phone-data-again/660262/40 "2013-06-06T17:16:51Z")
> [@sciurophobic](#): > > Great. Now the NSA knows I call Domino’s more than I call my mother. And because of your post, now your mother knows too. Way to go. 😃 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nsa-is-collecting-america-s-phone-data-again/660262.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nsa-is-collecting-america-s-phone-data-again/660262.md?page=3)