# The NSA is collecting America’s phone data. Again. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 6, 2013, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nsa-is-collecting-america-s-phone-data-again/660262 "2013-06-06T02:11:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2013, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nsa-is-collecting-america-s-phone-data-again/660262/121 "2013-06-09T23:51:10Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > You are correct that this breaking issue is not about phone taps but rather collecting phone records. > > That does not mean phone taps are not happening. We know there are phone taps. It would be bizarre if there _weren’t_ since that’s one of the reasons you want this kind of data in the first place: it lets you know what activity needs to be watched more closely. But every time people call this stuff phone tapping, they are suggesting (or confusing other people into believing) that this is about the government listening to everybody’s phone calls. It isn’t. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2013, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nsa-is-collecting-america-s-phone-data-again/660262/122 "2013-06-10T00:05:03Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > I also don’t have to worry about the CIA dropping an anti-tank missile on my car. That doesn’t mean I’m not allowed to object whenever they murder some kid… If we are talking about remote control war by way of the drone program, that’s one thing. This is about the limitations of collecting intelligence. I don’t know if we have a thread for random gripes about Obama, but I’m pretty sure this isn’t it. ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2013, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nsa-is-collecting-america-s-phone-data-again/660262/123 "2013-06-10T00:05:17Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > As Eugene V. Debs is my witness, I have no idea what you just said, there. 😃 Well, in your three points post, it appears as you are trying very hard to justify and/or rationalize the actions of the Government (I admit I think you might be a tiny bit sarcastic but you never know, eh?). I was just trying to expand the possibilities by suggesting that the action of the Government may be fully reasonable but for something we have no clue about - as I said , I don’t believe it has anything to do with anti-terrorism (or, at least, narrow definition of it). ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2013, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nsa-is-collecting-america-s-phone-data-again/660262/124 "2013-06-10T00:07:11Z")
Are you going to tell us what it _does_ have to do with, or would that be a spoiler? ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2013, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nsa-is-collecting-america-s-phone-data-again/660262/125 "2013-06-10T00:14:57Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Are you going to tell us what it _does_ have to do with, or would that be a spoiler? I have no clue. I mean, the only information that can be classified as “fact” on this forum is - if you follow chain of information distribution - coming from Government. And when a leak happens quite an effort is being put together to manage the value and the meaning of the information leaked. The only thing that is different between the times of Watergate Scandal and WikiLeaks and this - aside from the fact that the latter ones are much, much more serious - is the way Government is managing it. Even on this thread you almost have a competition going on who will write more beautiful apologetic essay for the Government. But, as always, I’m way off the tangent … :o ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2013, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nsa-is-collecting-america-s-phone-data-again/660262/126 "2013-06-10T00:24:18Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > We know there are phone taps. It would be bizarre if there _weren’t_ since that’s one of the reasons you want this kind of data in the first place: it lets you know what activity needs to be watched more closely. How? ---
**Author:** ![I\_Made\_French\_Toast\_For\_You](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/858c86/32.png) [@I\_Made\_French\_Toast\_For\_You](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Made_French_Toast_For_You)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2013, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nsa-is-collecting-america-s-phone-data-again/660262/127 "2013-06-10T00:41:24Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Second, at least 95% of the people worried about the government snooping into their private lives don’t have private lives that are remotely interesting to anybody, let alone the gummint. They would have to pay someone serious money to pretend that their private lives are interesting, and then only till their hour is up. So 95% of the program is useless, and the other 5% is violating the privacy of those who need it the most (excluding the .001% or whatever of legitimate targets). _Everybody_ should be genuinely worried about privacy invasions, though, especially if they escalate. Even someone with the most boring private life ever would object to weekly police searches of their home, for example. It’s why we call it a “private” life. > [@](#): > > Third, if Something Happens, does anyone doubt that the same people are gonna be screaming about “failing to protect us”? Things have already happened – the Boston Marathon bombing for one, if you consider it a terrorist attack. Things will happen again. An NSA call database isn’t going to stop terrorism. We don’t even have a cite that it _has_ helped – just assurances from government officials. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2013, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nsa-is-collecting-america-s-phone-data-again/660262/128 "2013-06-10T01:08:03Z")
For starters, it is useful to us that our enemies worry about it. That the security of their communications is uncertain, even if our threat is largely or partly a bluff. That makes the organization and execution of their plans more difficult. I am very susceptible to Orwellanoia. In my living memory, anti-war persons and groups experienced exactly what we are most concerned about, here. Whether or not the people pulling this sort of happy horseshit on us sincerely believed that we were enemies of America hardly matters, fact is we weren’t. Huge difference being that these people are enemies of America, right down to their toes. Or does that make a difference? I think it does, but I am but one voice in a very necessary and long overdue national conversation. And what a long strange trip its been. ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2013, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nsa-is-collecting-america-s-phone-data-again/660262/129 "2013-06-10T01:34:09Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Huge difference being that these people are enemies of America, right down to their toes. Who are they? Do you have their call meta-data? ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2013, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nsa-is-collecting-america-s-phone-data-again/660262/130 "2013-06-10T05:57:01Z")
> [@BrokenBriton](#): > > Certainly in the UK, we have seen dozen of convictions of Muslim extremists on the back of data-based Intel. Cite please. ---
**Author:** ![BrokenBriton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@BrokenBriton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrokenBriton)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2013, 7:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nsa-is-collecting-america-s-phone-data-again/660262/131 "2013-06-10T07:43:03Z")
> [@Gary\_Kumquat](#): > > Cite please. This may or may not be properly manintained: > **[List of terrorist incidents in Great Britain](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents_in_Great_Britain)** > > According to Europol, the reasons behind terrorist attacks in Great Britain are many. These have generally been attributed to hate, extremist or radicalised violence that escalates to acts of terror. According to a number to analysts of terrorist studies, these attacks have been motivated by right or left wing ideologies, paramilitaries, religious fundamentalism, nationalist or white supremacy > For example, during the 20th century, most attacks were carried out by various Irish Republican Army ... Not sure it had this recent case: > **[Birmingham terror plot ringleader jailed for minimum of 18 years](https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2013/apr/26/terror-plot-ringleader-jailed)** > > Irfan Naseer and co-conspirators planned attacks that could have been more devastating than 7/7 bombings ---
**Author:** ![BrokenBriton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@BrokenBriton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrokenBriton)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2013, 10:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nsa-is-collecting-america-s-phone-data-again/660262/132 "2013-06-10T10:05:18Z")
I suppose we can add to that those responsible for the Woolwich beheading a couple of weeks ago and, from today, this breaking news on The Guardian: "Six Islamic extremists who plotted attack on English Defence League rally jailed for terms ranging from 18 years and 9 months to 19 and a half years. More details soon… " ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2013, 10:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nsa-is-collecting-america-s-phone-data-again/660262/133 "2013-06-10T10:47:27Z")
> [@BrokenBriton](#): > > This may or may not be properly manintained: > > [List of terrorist incidents in Great Britain - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents_in_Great_Britain) > > Not sure it had this recent case: > > [Birmingham terror plot ringleader jailed for minimum of 18 years | UK security and counter-terrorism | The Guardian](http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/apr/26/terror-plot-ringleader-jailed) So you’ve got 3 blokes who were arrested following being bugged, and a list of thwarted incidents that include: "“2007 1 November: Police **searching for indecent images of children** arrested British People’s Party local organiser Martyn Gilleard in Goole, East Riding of Yorkshire under the Terrorism Act, over explosives found in his home” 2008 14 May: The Nottingham Two were arrested and detained for six days under the Terrorism Act 2000. A postgraduate student had downloaded a 1,500-page English translation of an Al-Qaeda document from the United States Department of Justice website for his PhD research on militant Islam. He sent it to a friend in the Modern Language department for printing. **Both were cleared of terrorism-related offences** , but the friend was immediately re-arrested on immigration ground" 2008 14 September: Oxford graduate Stephen Clarke arrested after someone thought they saw him taking a photograph of a sealed man-hole cover outside the central public library in Manchester. He was arrested under section 41 of the Terrorism Act 2000, held for 36 hours while his house and computer were searched, and then **released without charge**. No photographs of man-hole covers were found. 2009 13 February: 9 men arrested on the M65 motorway under section 40 of the Terrorism Act 2000. 6 were kept hand-cuffed in the back of a van for seven hours. The remaining 3 were detained for six days. **No one was charged**." etc, etc. Not seeing much evidence of “dozen of convictions of Muslim extremists on the back of data-based Intel” there? ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2013, 10:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nsa-is-collecting-america-s-phone-data-again/660262/134 "2013-06-10T10:50:36Z")
> [@BrokenBriton](#): > > "Six Islamic extremists who plotted attack on English Defence League rally jailed for terms ranging from 18 years and 9 months to 19 and a half years. More details soon… " “Their plans were uncovered by chance when a police officer carried out a routine stop on one of the vehicles as the men made their way back to Birmingham.” ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2013, 11:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nsa-is-collecting-america-s-phone-data-again/660262/135 "2013-06-10T11:10:25Z")
> [@Gary\_Kumquat](#): > > 2008 14 September: Oxford graduate Stephen Clarke arrested after someone thought they saw him taking a photograph of a sealed man-hole cover outside the central public library in Manchester. He was arrested under section 41 of the Terrorism Act 2000, held for 36 hours while his house and computer were searched, and then **released without charge**. No photographs of man-hole covers were found. That’s insane. What idiot decided that pointing a camera at the ground in a public place is sufficient justification to search a person’s house? ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2013, 11:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nsa-is-collecting-america-s-phone-data-again/660262/136 "2013-06-10T11:17:24Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > That’s insane. What idiot decided that pointing a camera at the ground in a public place is sufficient justification to search a person’s house? Are you some sort of socialist-jihadist terrorist apologist? ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2013, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nsa-is-collecting-america-s-phone-data-again/660262/137 "2013-06-10T12:16:50Z")
> [@Gary\_Kumquat](#): > > Are you some sort of socialist-jihadist terrorist apologist? lol ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2013, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nsa-is-collecting-america-s-phone-data-again/660262/138 "2013-06-10T13:31:32Z")
The sad thing is that the NSA could gin up huge public support by announcing that they’d used the program to track down “Rachel from Card Services”, and that she is now at Gitmo being waterboarded. ---
**Author:** ![BrokenBriton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@BrokenBriton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrokenBriton)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2013, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nsa-is-collecting-america-s-phone-data-again/660262/139 "2013-06-10T13:51:49Z")
> [@Gary\_Kumquat](#): > > So you’ve got 3 blokes who were arrested following being bugged, and a list of thwarted incidents that include: The thwarted section wasn’t too exciting, ‘Arrests, detentions, and other incidents related to the Terrorism Acts’ prob was. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2013, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nsa-is-collecting-america-s-phone-data-again/660262/140 "2013-06-10T14:13:21Z")
> [@BrokenBriton](#): > > The thwarted section wasn’t too exciting, ‘Arrests, detentions, and other incidents related to the Terrorism Acts’ prob was. That’s the section I quoted from. You might want to read your link, as it really doesn’t do much to support this idea of dozens of arrests from data analysis. If anything, it suggests that the intel being passed around is complete crap. As well as the ones I’ve quoted above, you’ve got: "2004 24 September: Four men arrested in the Holiday Inn in Brent Cross trying to buy red mercury, a mythical substance which could purportedly be used to construct a nuclear bomb, from a newspaper reporter. **One man was released three days later, while the other three were cleared at their trial on 25 July 2006** , during which the jury was told that “whether red mercury does or does not exist is irrelevant” “2005 28 July: David Mery arrested at Southwark tube station on suspicion of terrorism for wearing a jacket “too warm for the season” and carrying a bulky rucksack. All charges were dropped on 31 August. It took four more years for the police to apologise for the “unlawful arrest, detention and search of [his] home”.” “2006 2 June: The 2 June 2006 Forest Gate raid (on a house in Forest Gate) saw the arrest of two suspects, one who was shot in the shoulder, on charges of conspiring to release a chemical weapon in the form of suicide vest. The suspects were cleared of suspicion and released days later.” In short, far as I can see “data-based Intel” isn’t actually doing much at all. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nsa-is-collecting-america-s-phone-data-again/660262.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nsa-is-collecting-america-s-phone-data-again/660262.md?page=8)