# The Number Nine in Sayings? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 21, 2004, 10:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-number-nine-in-sayings/265303 "2004-09-21T10:33:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Sisyphus\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bc79bd/32.png) [@Sisyphus\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sisyphus_Stone)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2004, 10:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-number-nine-in-sayings/265303/1 "2004-09-21T10:33:22Z")
I’ve tried to find the significance in the number nine in such sayings as ‘The Whole Nine Yards’ and ‘Dressed to the Nines’ or ‘A Stitch in Time Saves Nine’. Internet research in inconclusive. The mystical nine Muses is mentioned. Nine yards of cloth to make a shroud, or a wedding dress, or a suit of clothes and the like is mentioned. In the end it has been concluded that ‘we just don’t know but sources suspect that the number nine was significant in the seventeenth century’. I turn in hope to the SDMB to determine if there is a more authoritative respones to my question, ‘What is the significance of the number nine in old sayings’? ---
**Author:** ![Aankh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ebca7d/32.png) [@Aankh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aankh)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2004, 10:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-number-nine-in-sayings/265303/2 "2004-09-21T10:54:37Z")
In my humble and utterly-devoid-of-facts opinion, ‘nine’ is used simply by virtue of it being the largest single-digit whole number. It makes for a neat and tidy stopping point and is the biggest of its set. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2004, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-number-nine-in-sayings/265303/3 "2004-09-21T13:45:22Z")
> [@Sisyphus' Stone](#): > > In the end it has been concluded that ‘we just don’t know but sources suspect that the number nine was significant in the seventeenth century’. Except “the whole nine yards” is first documented from the late 1950’s or early 1960’s, so it would appear to have nothing to do with the seventeenth century. ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2004, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-number-nine-in-sayings/265303/4 "2004-09-21T14:49:53Z")
There are several numbers that seem to have had magical properties going back a long time, including 3, 7, 9 and 13. What do they have in common: (1) They are all odd (2) They are all prime (except for 9, which is the square of the first odd prime). Two are connected with the calendar: there are 7 days in a week (which in turn is about a quarter of a month), and there are about 13 lunar months in a year. 7 times 13 is 91, the number of days in a quarter of a year. The other two are connected with each other, since 9 is 3 squared. ---
**Author:** ![Grossbottom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ba8739/32.png) [@Grossbottom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grossbottom)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2004, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-number-nine-in-sayings/265303/5 "2004-09-21T19:59:33Z")
AFAIK, the saying is actually ‘A Switch in Time Saves Nine,’ and is a reference to the nine Justices of the Supreme Court. During the 1930s, FDR experienced opposition from the Court in regard to his New Deal legislation. Re-election by landslide and support in Congress meant a blank check, and FDR introduced his court-packing plan. Essentially, the plan was to keep adding more Justices to the Court until he got what he wanted. Things never came to a head because one of the Justices suddenly changed his mind on the legislation, and the New Deal proceeded. Thus, the switch saved the nine, and they remain only nine today. I _think_ there may have been a folk or early blues song that used the line as a lyric, but I might just be imagining that. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2004, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-number-nine-in-sayings/265303/6 "2004-09-21T20:34:55Z")
I might be getting whooshed, here, but **Grossbottom** , are you claiming that the sewing meaning of the phrase (which happens to be the one consistent with how the phrase is actually used) is entirely coincidental? If a tear starts forming in a piece of cloth, you might be able to fix it with only a single stitch, if you catch it early. But if you ignore the tear, it’ll grow, until you might eventually need a great many stitches to repair it. This meaning is pretty obvious, leaving unanswered only the question of “why nine specifically?”. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2004, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-number-nine-in-sayings/265303/7 "2004-09-21T20:52:08Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > This meaning is pretty obvious, leaving unanswered only the question of “why nine specifically?”. Because it sort of rhymes, this “time” with “nine”. ---
**Author:** ![Ike\_Witt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ike_witt/32/283_2.png) [@Ike\_Witt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ike_Witt)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2004, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-number-nine-in-sayings/265303/8 "2004-09-21T20:53:53Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > if you ignore the tear, it’ll grow, until you might eventually need a great many stitches to repair it. This meaning is pretty obvious, leaving unanswered only the question of “why nine specifically?”. Because, in this case, nine is a forced rhyme (I’m certain that there is a literary term for this) with time? ---
**Author:** ![MaryEFoo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@MaryEFoo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaryEFoo)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2004, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-number-nine-in-sayings/265303/9 "2004-09-22T02:14:23Z")
Robert Graves in The White Goddess (?) IIR said the nine muses appeared to be an outgrowth of three muses with three variations (possibly the maiden/wife/crone triad seen among goddesses). Of course the muses might have been influenced similarly to the modern Olympics, ie if you have a muse each for Poetry and Sculpture, you need one for Painting, for Music, for Dance, and so forth. And I’ve heard ‘nine (cubic) yards’ is the capacity of a cement truck. “I gave him the whole nine yards”…Dopers with actual knowledge of cement trucks may be of assistance here. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2004, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-number-nine-in-sayings/265303/10 "2004-09-22T02:57:12Z")
> [@MaryEFoo](#): > > And I’ve heard ‘nine (cubic) yards’ is the capacity of a cement truck. “I gave him the whole nine yards”…Dopers with actual knowledge of cement trucks may be of assistance here. Don’t get them started!!! Even Cecil has thrown up his hands in frustration in trying to get something definitive on this one: [What’s the origin of “the whole nine yards”?](http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a2_252.html) I believe there have been any number of threads on this too. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2004, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-number-nine-in-sayings/265303/11 "2004-09-22T14:17:43Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > I believe there have been any number of threads on this too. If I recall correctly, it has been brought up one or twice. > **[The Whole Nine Yards](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=269118)** > > First, as a window into my present mind set I probably should warn you I just tried to fold an ATM receipt more than seven times. Also, I’d like to make clear I spend my lonely, wee hours watching the Discovery Channel instead of getting wooed into... > **[did the whole nine yards issue ever get resolved](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=166516)** > > the original column was right here. http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a2\_252.html > **[the real whole nine yards](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=254889)** > > Now this is in fact the correct origination of the expression the whole nine yards, although details are somewhat hazy. During the Second world war fighter planes were equipped with machine guns or cannon, in the modern sense of the word, that is a... > **[The Whole Nine Yards, Another idea](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=255052)** > > Here is another idea as to where this expression came from. In India women wear saris and the traditional length for the average sari is six yards. However, for very formal occasions or in very traditional situations. women can wear a sari that is... > **[origins of "whole nine yards"](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=240047)** > > The site mentions that the origins of this phrase are from the use of fabric for certian events but i think this is the true answer from a good friend of mine: "I know it authoritatively, having served in the military. I first heard it during the... > **[The whole nine yards-origin](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=177849)** > > I read somewhere that the expression “the whole nine yards” came from garment making. Bolts of cloth being nine yards in length, it was certainly going all out if the whole thing was used. > **[The whole nine yards...](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=139059)** > > re… http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a2\_252.html The whole nine yards comes from the American boom years of the 50’s. The selling of houses became more difficult as the suburbs sprang up. The developers would therefor install many houses with... > **["the whole nine yards"](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=118488)** > > Regarding the expression “the whole nine yards” (see http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a2\_252.html ), this site http://www.top-greetings.com/jokes/ includes the following paragraphs. Received from: Factmaster \*\*\* Today’s Useless Fact \*\*\* Why... > **[The whole nine yards](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=63008)** > > I understand that the origin of the phrase “The whole nine yards.” has been in dispute. I remember reading that it originated from the approximate amount of cloth in an authentic kilt. (Not the kind of newfangled kilt that Prince Charles sports from... > **[The Whole Nine Yards](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=50725)** > > I’ve just read the suggestion that it refers to the length of machinegun ammo belts in WWII with Cecils refutation that the phrase didn’t show up until the mid 60s. How long was the roll of gauze in Vietnam era military first aid kits? ... > **[The whole 9 yards.....](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=29921)** > > The term the whole nine yards does not originate from the amount of fabric used to make certain clothes, or the cloth that covers a casket. It actually originates from WWII piolets. One string of bullets was nine yards long, if the piolet shot all... > **[The whole nine yards](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=2905)** > > I have read in various “origin of” sources that the “whole nine yards” referred to the 27 feet of machine gun ammo carried by WWII fighter craft. A pilot who had given his all would have delivered the whole nine yards. Tom > **[the whole nine yards](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=1734)** > > I cannot verify this, but a veteran I trust informed me that “the whole nine yards” refers to 27 foot cartridge belts used in WWII aircraft. Any truth? > **[yards, and nine of them ...](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=1379)** > > (reference http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a2\_252.html)) No, I don’t think I have an answer, but I have an observation which might relate. The other day I was watching a MASH rerun, and a bit of the dialog reminded me that a yard used to be a... > **[The Whole Nine Yards Explanation](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=573)** > > I was very surprised to see while browsing the archives that the origin of this phrase was never finnaly settled. I was even more surprised to see that even with a dozen suggestions, no one was even remotely close to the true genesis of this phrase.... ---
**Author:** ![APB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8e8cbc/32.png) [@APB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/APB)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2004, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-number-nine-in-sayings/265303/12 "2004-09-22T15:00:32Z")
> [@Grossbottom](#): > > AFAIK, the saying is actually ‘A Switch in Time Saves Nine,’ and is a reference to the nine Justices of the Supreme Court. During the 1930s, FDR experienced opposition from the Court in regard to his New Deal legislation. Re-election by landslide and support in Congress meant a blank check, and FDR introduced his court-packing plan. Essentially, the plan was to keep adding more Justices to the Court until he got what he wanted. > > Things never came to a head because one of the Justices suddenly changed his mind on the legislation, and the New Deal proceeded. Thus, the switch saved the nine, and they remain only nine today. The inconvenient problem for this being that the phrase ‘a stitch in time saves nine’ is known to date at least as far back as 1732. [http://www.plateaupress.com.au/wfw/stitchin.htm](http://www.plateaupress.com.au/wfw/stitchin.htm)