# The Number of the Beast **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 28, 2000, 10:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-number-of-the-beast/27178 "2000-07-28T10:27:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Amanda\_Treefield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e47774/32.png) [@Amanda\_Treefield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amanda_Treefield)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2000, 10:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-number-of-the-beast/27178/1 "2000-07-28T10:27:24Z")
“It caused everyone, small and great, rich and poor, free man and slave, to have a mark put on his right hand or his forehead, and no one was allowed to buy or sell unless he bore this beast’s mark, either name or number. (This calls for skill: let anyone who has intelligence work out the number of the beast, for the number represents a man’s name, and the numerical value of its letters is six hundred and sixty-six.” (Revelation 13-16 to 18) I think that St John the Divine was more used to the Roman numbering system than the Arabic. I think he was describing the number ‘DCXLVI’. I am no Latin scholar, but I do know that there are several puns and puzzles to do with Latin numbers and abbreviations. The first Christians used the sign of the fish as their symbol for peace, beacause of the similarity between ‘Pax’ and ‘Pisces’. If I’ve got that wrong it’s because I’m no Latin scholar, as I said. So, is there a Latin scholar who would like to let us know what significance the ‘DCXLVI’ might have? Might really be an early form of the name of that Italian motorcycle manufacturer Ducati? Or is it, as I suspect, a thinly- veiled reference to the corrupt and despotic tyrant, Caligula. (As in D CaLIgVIa). Whichever, John’s text clearly does not intend to represent the Devil. Amanda Treefield England ---
**Author:** ![SPOOFE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@SPOOFE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SPOOFE)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2000, 10:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-number-of-the-beast/27178/2 "2000-07-28T10:42:02Z")
I can’t help you with the Latin, but I’m curious about which version of the Bible you’re using (not for an sort of attack on your post, just for the sake of establishing a point of reference). ---
**Author:** ![mothra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecccb3/32.png) [@mothra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mothra)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2000, 12:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-number-of-the-beast/27178/3 "2000-07-28T12:03:51Z")
I hate to be pedantic (actually, I LOVE to be pedantic) but DCXLVI is only 646. If you do a search for DCLXVI (666) on the internet, you come up with a whole load of sites by some rather scary people, but not a single guess at what those letters might be abbreviating. My own guess (for what it’s worth) is that it stands for a Latin name with the initials D.C.L. and the number sisteen appended to it to signify ‘D.C.L. the sixteenth’. ---
**Author:** ![mothra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecccb3/32.png) [@mothra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mothra)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2000, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-number-of-the-beast/27178/4 "2000-07-28T12:22:52Z")
Or, perhaps to pour a bucket of cold water over the debate, you could always go with the earlier translations of The Bible, in which 666 is the number of man (not `a’ man). The explanation goes something like this: no matter how many times you repeat the number six, it will never equal seven, which is a holy number (e.g. the seventh day of the creation). ---
**Author:** ![mothra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecccb3/32.png) [@mothra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mothra)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2000, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-number-of-the-beast/27178/5 "2000-07-28T12:25:01Z")
BTW, I meant `man' as in `mankind’, not the male gender in general… … or DID I?!? ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2000, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-number-of-the-beast/27178/6 "2000-07-28T12:35:46Z")
Strongs gives Revelation 13:18 as: “5602 2076 4678 2192 3563 5585 706 2342 1063 2076 706 444 2532 846 706 5516” 5516 is “chi xi stigma”. 444 is “anthropos”. ---
**Author:** ![Trout\_Mask\_Replica](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a88e57/32.png) [@Trout\_Mask\_Replica](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trout_Mask_Replica)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2000, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-number-of-the-beast/27178/7 "2000-07-28T14:06:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Amanda Treefield \* > **The first Christians used the sign of the fish as their symbol for peace, beacause of the similarity between ‘Pax’ > and ‘Pisces’. If I’ve got that wrong it’s because I’m > no Latin scholar, as I said.** Back in Sunday school, I was taught that the early Christians used the fish as a symbol because the Greek word for ‘fish’, ‘ichthys’, was also an acronym for a Greek phrase meaning ‘Jesus Christ, Son of God, Savior’. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2000, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-number-of-the-beast/27178/8 "2000-07-28T14:45:45Z")
My understanding of the “666” thing is that it is actually based on the Hebrew numbering system, also known as “Gematria.” In Hebrew, the letter of the alef-bet are also used as numbers, with the following correspondence: Alef = 1 Bet = 2 Gimmel = 3 Dalet = 4 Heh = 5 Vav = 6 Zayin = 7 Het = 8 Tet = 9 Yud = 10 Caf = 20 Lamed = 30 Mem = 40 Nun = 50 Sameh = 60 Ayin = 70 Peh = 80 Zaddi = 90 Kof = 100 Resh = 200 Shin = 300 Tav = 400 The numerical value of the Hebrew spelling of “Caesar Nero” (“Neron Kaisar” in Hebrew), someone very devilish to the Christians of that era, equals 666. ---
**Author:** ![don\_Jaime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b4bc9f/32.png) [@don\_Jaime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/don_Jaime)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2000, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-number-of-the-beast/27178/9 "2000-07-28T14:51:21Z")
Here we go… The Greek system in use at the time (Ignore the Roman! Everyone in the Greek east did.) goes alpha=1, beta=2, gamma=3…on up to ten, then goes twenty, thirty, forty, fifty…up to hundred, then increases by hundreds. OK? Rack up “Nero Caesar” in Greek letters. Add 'em up. You get…616, which appears as the Number in some early copies of the Revelation. It’s also bad Greek - Nero would be pronounced “Neron”. Tack that nu in there for fifty bonus points and the ultra-scary modern total of 666. At the time John wrote (AD 79), there was a belief in “Nero Redivivus”, a fear of Nero somehow resurrecting and coming to power again. This would be a very blasphemous version of Christ’s resurrection, suitable for an anti-Christ. He would also have been the tenth emporer, and thus the tenth head of the Beast itself. So not only is the anti-Christ dead, he was dead [bold]when the book was written[/bold]. So much for satanic power. ---
**Author:** ![don\_Jaime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b4bc9f/32.png) [@don\_Jaime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/don_Jaime)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2000, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-number-of-the-beast/27178/10 "2000-07-28T14:54:44Z")
Keller, are you secretly the Flash? ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Zero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c4cdca/32.png) [@Saint\_Zero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Zero)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2000, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-number-of-the-beast/27178/11 "2000-07-28T15:27:57Z")
Not to quibble, but if I pull my New International Version, and the New American Standard (from [http://unbound.biola.edu/](http://unbound.biola.edu/), The Unbound Bible online) I don’t get the verse you quote. > [@](#): > > Revelation 13:18 > Here is wisdom. Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for the number is that of a man; and his number is six hundred and sixty-six. That doesn’t contain the blatant reference to numerology. Which version are you using? I know both the Roman Emperor argument and the one Cecil gives in one of his books (the Popes being the Anti Christ, but I can’t find it online). Just curious. ---
**Author:** ![Tretiak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a88e57/32.png) [@Tretiak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tretiak)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2000, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-number-of-the-beast/27178/12 "2000-07-28T16:06:18Z")
COuldn’t let this thread go by without my .sig showing up. ---
**Author:** ![Amanda\_Treefield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e47774/32.png) [@Amanda\_Treefield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amanda_Treefield)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2000, 8:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-number-of-the-beast/27178/13 "2000-07-29T08:31:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by don Jaime \* > \*\*Abbreviated > Rack up “Nero Caesar” in Greek letters. Nero would be pronounced “Neron”. Tack that nu in there for fifty bonus points and the ultra-scary modern total of 666. > > At the time John wrote (AD 79), there was a belief in “Nero Redivivus”, a fear of Nero somehow resurrecting and coming to power again. \*\* This is convincing. John was speaking/writing for a contemporary audience, and probably struggling to avoid a charge of sedition. Denouncing a dead hero of the empire would have cost him his liberty, if not his life. A bit wimpish for an evangelist perhaps? Amanda Treefield ---
**Author:** ![Amanda\_Treefield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e47774/32.png) [@Amanda\_Treefield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amanda_Treefield)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2000, 8:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-number-of-the-beast/27178/14 "2000-07-29T08:34:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by cmkeller \* > \*\*My understanding of the “666” thing is that it is actually based on the Hebrew numbering system. > > The numerical value of the Hebrew spelling of “Caesar Nero” (“Neron Kaisar” in Hebrew), someone very devilish to the Christians of that era, equals 666. \*\* Another correspondent, don Jaime, has produced the same analysis using the greek numbering system. Was this the same as the Hebrew system of the period, or has one of you got it wrong? Amanda Treefield ---
**Author:** ![Amanda\_Treefield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e47774/32.png) [@Amanda\_Treefield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amanda_Treefield)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2000, 8:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-number-of-the-beast/27178/15 "2000-07-29T08:40:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SPOOFE Bo Diddly \* > \*\*I can’t help you with the Latin, but I’m curious about which version of the Bible you’re using (not for an sort of attack on your post, just for the sake of establishing a point of reference). \*\* Aksherly, I picked it up from a posting in alt.christnet.demonology, which is where I posted a similar question. I should have lloked it up myself but we don’t seem to have a bible in the house, probably for the same reason I don’t go into churches. And that is because my clothes start to smoulder - It must have been something I said. Bible: Vernacular for a manufacturer’s operating manual, specification or service guide. Like the original bible a collection of obsolete myths, misunderstandings and mistranslations. (New Revised Devil’s Dictionary) Amanda Treefield ---
**Author:** ![Amanda\_Treefield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e47774/32.png) [@Amanda\_Treefield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amanda_Treefield)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2000, 8:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-number-of-the-beast/27178/16 "2000-07-29T08:48:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Saint Zero \* > \*\*Not to quibble, but if I pull my New International Version, and the New American Standard (from [http://unbound.biola.edu/](http://unbound.biola.edu/), The Unbound Bible online) I don’t get the verse you quote. > \*\* I found the quote in alt.christnet.demonology. I have no idea of which version of the bible it came from. Isn’t it odd? There are so many versions of ‘The one true word’ and so many versions of the same stories in it. It’s no wonder that all these christians cannot seem to agree on anything, and spend all their time preparing to smite each other mightily. Amanda Treefield ---
**Author:** ![Danielinthewolvesden](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ce7236/32.png) [@Danielinthewolvesden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Danielinthewolvesden)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2000, 10:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-number-of-the-beast/27178/17 "2000-07-29T10:00:43Z")
Well, most of “us Christians” HAVE agred, it is Nero. Period. ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2000, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-number-of-the-beast/27178/18 "2000-07-29T15:37:07Z")
Okay, just to keep down the amount of quibbling over what this verse says, here are the translations of Revelation 13:18 from the more popular English-language bibles: “This calls for wisdom. If anyone has insight, let him calculate the number of the beast, for it is man’s number. His number is 666.” – _New International Version (NIV)_ “Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.” – _King James Version (KJV)_ “Here is wisdom. Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man: His number is 666.” – _New King James Version (NKJV)_ “Here is wisdom. Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for the number is that of a man; and his number is [1] six hundred and sixty-six.” 1. One early manuscript reads 616 – _New American Standard Bible (NASB)_ “This calls for wisdom: let him who has understanding reckon the number of the beast, for it is a human number, its number is six hundred and sixty-six.” – _Revised Standard Version (RSV)_ “Here is wisdom. He that has understanding let him count the number of the beast: for it is a man’s number; and its number [is] six hundred [and] sixty-six.” – _Darby Translation_ “Here is the wisdom! He who is having the understanding, let him count the number of the beast, for the number of a man it is, and its number [is] 666.” – _Young’s Literal Translation (YLT)_ “Here wisdom is needed. If a person understands, he should count the number of the beast. It is the number of a man’s name. Its number is six hundred and sixty-six.” – _Worldwide English (WE)_ “This calls for wisdom. Whoever is intelligent can figure out the meaning of the number of the beast, because the number stands for a man’s name. Its number is 666.” – _Today’s English Version (TEV)_ (a.k.a. the Good News Bible) ---
**Author:** ![handy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5a626/32.png) [@handy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/handy)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2000, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-number-of-the-beast/27178/19 "2000-07-29T17:20:06Z")
Yesterday I went to the computer store & asked them about a Pentium 550 chip, they don’t have one. They only have a Pentium 667hz. lol 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2000, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-number-of-the-beast/27178/20 "2000-07-29T17:35:40Z")
When speculating on the number, it does not hurt to remember that it was written out, originally, as _hexachósioi hexéchonta hex_, not as a “numeral” using letters as numbers. There is a lot of Hebrew and Aramaic tradition and style incorporated in **Revelation** , so tripling the use of 6 (meaning imperfect/sinful/evil/falling-short-of-the-divine-numeral-7), is consistent with the idea of simply describing the _most_ evil person. (6 = evil, 66 = more evil, 666 = most evil.) As to _who_ may be the object of the symbolism, the most frequent and accepted speculation among scripture scholars is that it refers to Nero. (The Hebrew/Greek confusion arises from the fact that the easiest way to get to Nero’s name is to use the Greek counting letters to spell out the name the way that he was identified in Hebrew. This would be similar to making jokes about Saddam Hussein based on the English spelling and (mis)pronunciation of his name, regardless how it is spelled or pronounced in Arabic.) Nero as subject is reinforced by the above mentioned fears of Nero returning, undead, as _Nero Redivivus_. Unfortunately, several other emperors’ names can be contorted to “spell out” 666 and the author, figuring his immediate audience would _know_ who he was talking about, did not leave us a key. As to the OP. I doubt that the Latin “numerals” spell out anything. (Not because they could not.) Greek was the language in which _Revelation_ was written. Greek speaking Asia Minor was the locale where it was written. Speakers of Greek and/or Aramaic were the audience for the book. While Latin was the language of the conquerors, Greek was still the literary language of the age (as well as being the _lingua franca_ of the eastern Mediterranean at that time). I don’t believe that Latin usage played much of a part in any of the writings of Christian Scripture. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-number-of-the-beast/27178.md?page=2)