# The numbnut who had the freakout at the Arlen Specter townhall meeting **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 12, 2009, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-numbnut-who-had-the-freakout-at-the-arlen-specter-townhall-meeting/506206 "2009-08-12T19:14:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![Mr.Svinlesha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/22d042/32.png) [@Mr.Svinlesha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Svinlesha)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2009, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-numbnut-who-had-the-freakout-at-the-arlen-specter-townhall-meeting/506206/221 "2009-08-13T20:57:26Z")
**elucidator** : > [@](#): > > _Democracy isn’t a better form of government. It isn’t more effiicient, it isn’t smarter, it doesn’t make the trains run on time. It’s only more just._ Cite? ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2009, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-numbnut-who-had-the-freakout-at-the-arlen-specter-townhall-meeting/506206/222 "2009-08-13T20:57:40Z")
I agree with **Mr. Svin** in large measure, and I understand why it’s daunting. Too often on the left we think that people will be swayed by intelligent argument and logic. We seem to continually be in the mode of being shouted down by fucking morons because of our love for ration and logic. A large factor, however, is that we also have no elected leaders who have the nutsack to do the right fucking thing and to lead on an issue. Look at what the Democrats, including Obama did on the healthcare issue. Handed a majority and popular support, they thought the best thing to do would be to negotiate. Now, you, me and the dog have all been watching long enough to know that the Republicans are now led by a bunch of cunts who you should never negotiate in good faith with. But not out leaders. Masses of stupid rightards will not be challenged by others in their party or by facts. Only by strength. Strong leadership is what we need. Be a goddamn champion for a position, not a simpering puss, and the message wouldn’t be taken away by incoherent screamers. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2009, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-numbnut-who-had-the-freakout-at-the-arlen-specter-townhall-meeting/506206/223 "2009-08-13T20:59:37Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Haven’t read any of 'em, never said I did…therefore no need for citation. I oppose it vehemently, as should be obvious from many posts around here, on a philosophical basis best summed up by one of my favorite quotes by **Scylla** , who said _"This is that land of the motherfucking free. Home of the brave_," and people are not free when they have to go hat in hand to the government seeking to have their needs provided for. > > I also oppose it because I firmly believe that it’s a foot-in-the-door that will lead to total government health care and life-and-death decisions being left to government fiat – a government that is unaccountable to no one and can do (and cover or deny) whatever it wants on the basis of this or that day’s revenue or politics. So, why has that not happened in Canada, the UK, France, etc., etc.? You know, all the other industrialized democracies that have had UHC in one form or another for a long time. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2009, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-numbnut-who-had-the-freakout-at-the-arlen-specter-townhall-meeting/506206/224 "2009-08-13T20:59:58Z")
> [@Mr.Svinlesha](#): > > **Bif** : > > Well, I can tell you one thing: he’s a tiger when he wants love, but he’s a snake when we disagree. But, man! That locomotive breath is really bad. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2009, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-numbnut-who-had-the-freakout-at-the-arlen-specter-townhall-meeting/506206/225 "2009-08-13T21:00:58Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I am not a “Dem”. In fact, I’m not even registered to vote. > > Do you seriously believe that voters are turning against the health care bill because they know what’s in it? Of course not. The voters are turning against it because the Republicans have done a much better job of torpedoing it than the Democrats have of floating it. Okay, one more post and then I’m out. (Hi, **Rubystreak**! ;)) The Democrats haven’t done a good job of floating it because their response to “_What’s in it_?” is “_I don’t know, but we’ve never worked harder on anything in our lives_” (Kathleen Sebelius), followed by “_We have to do it fast_” (by Arlen Specter). I don’t have time to find the appropriate clip but I’m sure most if not all of you have seen it already. If not, it’s easy to find. ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2009, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-numbnut-who-had-the-freakout-at-the-arlen-specter-townhall-meeting/506206/226 "2009-08-13T21:02:24Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I am not a “Dem”. In fact, I’m not even registered to vote. > > Do you seriously believe that voters are turning against the health care bill because they know what’s in it? Of course not. The voters are turning against it because the Republicans have done a much better job of torpedoing it than the Democrats have of floating it. Of course they don’t know what’s in it. _Nobody_ knows what’s in it because there is no settled bill. And therein lies the problem. The Democrats have spectacularly screwed up in the whole way they’ve played this. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2009, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-numbnut-who-had-the-freakout-at-the-arlen-specter-townhall-meeting/506206/227 "2009-08-13T21:09:03Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > I agree with **Mr. Svin** in large measure, and I understand why it’s daunting. Too often on the left we think that people will be swayed by intelligent argument and logic. We seem to continually be in the mode of being shouted down by fucking morons because of our love for ration and logic. > > A large factor, however, is that we also have no elected leaders who have the nutsack to do the right fucking thing and to lead on an issue. Look at what the Democrats, including Obama did on the healthcare issue. Handed a majority and popular support, they thought the best thing to do would be to negotiate. Now, you, me and the dog have all been watching long enough to know that the Republicans are now led by a bunch of cunts who you should never negotiate in good faith with. But not out leaders. > > Masses of stupid rightards will not be challenged by others in their party or by facts. Only by strength. Strong leadership is what we need. Be a goddamn champion for a position, not a simpering puss, and the message wouldn’t be taken away by incoherent screamers. Ah, and now we have another addition to the thread’s increasing demonstration of elitism that the left is so well known for. Yep, your opponents can’t possibly have a valid point. Anyone who disagrees with the liberal line is just plain stupid…or unevolved…or EEVIL. It might interest you to know that in a recent poll, twice as many people said they were stupid, unevolved or evil as opposed to being liberal, so apparently it’s a common condition. ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2009, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-numbnut-who-had-the-freakout-at-the-arlen-specter-townhall-meeting/506206/228 "2009-08-13T21:10:04Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > When Dems here start accusing the ‘average voter’ of being a dummy you just know they’re in trouble. [QUOTE=George Carlin] Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that. [/QUOTE] There’s no shame in being a dummy, just in not realizing when you are being a dummy. Humans are occasionally gifted with brilliance and so we are nudged ever further from the banana trees; but, on the whole, we are little more than very clever monkeys. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2009, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-numbnut-who-had-the-freakout-at-the-arlen-specter-townhall-meeting/506206/229 "2009-08-13T21:12:07Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Yep, your opponents can’t possibly have a valid point. When the only opponents are incoherent screamers, no, they don’t. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2009, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-numbnut-who-had-the-freakout-at-the-arlen-specter-townhall-meeting/506206/230 "2009-08-13T21:14:16Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > ..Strong leadership is what we need. Be a goddamn champion for a position, not a simpering puss, and the message wouldn’t be taken away by incoherent screamers. When the people lead, the leaders will follow. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Svinlesha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/22d042/32.png) [@Mr.Svinlesha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Svinlesha)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2009, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-numbnut-who-had-the-freakout-at-the-arlen-specter-townhall-meeting/506206/231 "2009-08-13T21:15:35Z")
Oh, by the way, hiya, Hentor! 🙂 Hope all’s well with you and yours. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2009, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-numbnut-who-had-the-freakout-at-the-arlen-specter-townhall-meeting/506206/232 "2009-08-13T21:16:43Z")
**SA** , can you name a single constructive criticism Republicans have made in the past six months that doesn’t amount to “tax cuts”? ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2009, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-numbnut-who-had-the-freakout-at-the-arlen-specter-townhall-meeting/506206/233 "2009-08-13T22:05:24Z")
I never thought I’d say this, but I miss William F. Buckley. A dumbed-down thesis can only encourage a lazy antithesis, reducing the quality of their synthesis. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2009, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-numbnut-who-had-the-freakout-at-the-arlen-specter-townhall-meeting/506206/234 "2009-08-13T22:47:18Z")
Starving for Attention, I suspect you actually believe thar you are clever, intelligent or provocative. I pity you. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2009, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-numbnut-who-had-the-freakout-at-the-arlen-specter-townhall-meeting/506206/235 "2009-08-13T22:48:49Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > No stupid. I’m saying that the opposition people at the current town halls who decide to stand up and ask a question are angry and uninformed. I have two cites for that. 😃 > > Good try on the handwaving, though. I understand your desire to ignore an issue that suggests that your side is full of cretins. 😕 Dude, I said that if there were an issue that liberals cared about that they may lose on then there woukd be some liberal muppets to point and laugh at. You responded by saying how you thought “most people” would react, and I pointed out that your response was not on point re: the way liberal muppets would react. Your response above is just bizarre. I don’t know what you think you’re talking about now. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2009, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-numbnut-who-had-the-freakout-at-the-arlen-specter-townhall-meeting/506206/236 "2009-08-13T23:36:33Z")
> [@Mr.Svinlesha](#): > > I’m still waiting for a single opponent of health care reform on these boards to lay out a clear, concise argument against it. Apologies for the delay. The answer is: Society works best when the government does the least possible. I’m sure you’ll dismiss that as sloganeering, but it is a fully sufficient and rational reason to not support UHC, even if you disagree with it. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2009, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-numbnut-who-had-the-freakout-at-the-arlen-specter-townhall-meeting/506206/237 "2009-08-13T23:43:14Z")
> [@Mr.Svinlesha](#): > > Oh, by the way, hiya, Hentor! > > 🙂 > > Hope all’s well with you and yours. Good to hear from you again. Hope you’re around for a while. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2009, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-numbnut-who-had-the-freakout-at-the-arlen-specter-townhall-meeting/506206/238 "2009-08-13T23:46:04Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Apologies for the delay. The answer is: Society works best when the government does the least possible. > > I’m sure you’ll dismiss that as sloganeering, but it is a fully sufficient and rational reason to not support UHC, even if you disagree with it. That leaves you with having to define “least possible.” To me, a government that stands around watching while its citizens drop like flies is doing too little. A government that isn’t protecting its citizens is a government that is useless. So, what is the “least possible” a government can do? I mean sure, it’s possible for a government to do nothing but exist, but is that a good definition? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2009, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-numbnut-who-had-the-freakout-at-the-arlen-specter-townhall-meeting/506206/239 "2009-08-13T23:49:08Z")
> [@Mr.Svinlesha](#): > > **elucidator** : > > Cite? We hold these truths to be self-evident. Witnessing? You betcha, its a secular faith, its what makes America a noble and flawed experiment, its what makes me a flag-waving, red blooded All-American radical. Without it, we’re just like all the rest, a bunch of people playing Risk for keepsies. With it, we are the most noble experiment in human history, and if we fail, well, hell, trying sure was a hoot, wasn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2009, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-numbnut-who-had-the-freakout-at-the-arlen-specter-townhall-meeting/506206/240 "2009-08-13T23:54:43Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > …So, what is the “least possible” a government can do? I mean sure, it’s possible for a government to do nothing but exist, but is that a good definition? I believe it was Jean-Paul Mill’s seminal work of political science _Being, Nothingness, and the State_ that established that a government the does nothing has elected not to choose, hence, has elected not to exist. Might have been one of those paranoid German bachelor philosophers. Sounds kinda German, doesn’t it? Pretty sure it wasn’t Heisenberg. No, definitely not. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-numbnut-who-had-the-freakout-at-the-arlen-specter-townhall-meeting/506206.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-numbnut-who-had-the-freakout-at-the-arlen-specter-townhall-meeting/506206.md?page=13)