# The numbnut who had the freakout at the Arlen Specter townhall meeting **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 12, 2009, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-numbnut-who-had-the-freakout-at-the-arlen-specter-townhall-meeting/506206 "2009-08-12T19:14:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![Mr.Svinlesha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/22d042/32.png) [@Mr.Svinlesha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Svinlesha)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2009, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-numbnut-who-had-the-freakout-at-the-arlen-specter-townhall-meeting/506206/301 "2009-08-14T22:17:40Z")
**RR** : > [@](#): > > _No. I just think that what a government should do should be informed by the purpose of government, and protection from enemies is the sole legitimate purpose of government._ But you have yet to explicate why you believe this to be so, or why you arbitrarily draw the line of legitimacy at that particular location. If your argument is that “society functions best” with such a government, you should be able to demonstrate that empirically. > [@](#): > > _I’m not one of those hard-core libertarians that thinks every road should be a toll road, etc._ As far as I can see, this statement directly contradicts the claim you make exactly prior to it. If the only legitimate purpose of government is to protect its citizens from enemies, then it follows that it would be illegitimate for a government to build and maintain (non-military) roads. I thought you claimed you could easily best any “liberal” in a debate, but so far this has been like shooting fish in a barrel for me. Seriously, I ask again: is there a conservative out there who can provide a serious, reality-based argument against public health care? Anyone? ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2009, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-numbnut-who-had-the-freakout-at-the-arlen-specter-townhall-meeting/506206/302 "2009-08-14T22:31:49Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > So, why has that not happened in Canada, the UK, France, etc., etc.? You know, all the other industrialized democracies that have had UHC in one form or another for a long time. It’s a reasonless argument. Someone can hit on 18 and get a 3, or play russian roulette and survive. It doesn’t mean it’s a good idea. Plus, those countries suck. Plus, you’re committing the fallacy of adverse selection, by picking countries with socialized healthcare that suck less. Cuba has it. So did Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union. ---
**Author:** ![SmashTheState](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@SmashTheState](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmashTheState)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2009, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-numbnut-who-had-the-freakout-at-the-arlen-specter-townhall-meeting/506206/303 "2009-08-14T22:35:01Z")
> [@Mr.Svinlesha](#): > > Seriously, I ask again: is there a conservative out there who can provide a serious, reality-based argument against public health care? Anyone? I can give it a shot. As an anarchist, I object to the very existence of the State, much less control by the State of essential services. One argument against State-run medical services is that this puts the State in the position of having the power to _withdraw_ medical care on any basis they wish. Compare this to the situation with other necessities of life, such as food and water. The State has some control over the food supply, but a person can, at least in theory, grow their own food, and water falls naturally from the sky. Health care is very different. Even if a person had the will to learn medical skills, it’s not realistic for a person to, for example, perform an appendectomy on hirself. Furthermore, we see that personal sovereignty is taken from people’s hands when health care is mandated by the State. Innocculations, which often carry very serious health risks, are made mandatory by the State, removing people’s ability to make their own considered choices about their health. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2009, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-numbnut-who-had-the-freakout-at-the-arlen-specter-townhall-meeting/506206/304 "2009-08-14T22:37:04Z")
Cite that inoculations ever carry serious health risks to anyone but infants and the elderly? Also, your entire first paragraph applies to greedy insurance companies just as well. ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2009, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-numbnut-who-had-the-freakout-at-the-arlen-specter-townhall-meeting/506206/305 "2009-08-14T22:53:02Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Well RAND ROVER finally has a face. Are you sure? I thought he was that white-robed dude in the big throne pictured in every Chick tract. **Rand Rover** also seems to think he is That Faceless Guy. ---
**Author:** ![SmashTheState](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@SmashTheState](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmashTheState)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2009, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-numbnut-who-had-the-freakout-at-the-arlen-specter-townhall-meeting/506206/306 "2009-08-14T22:57:01Z")
> [@Captain\_Carrot](#): > > Cite that inoculations ever carry serious health risks to anyone but infants and the elderly? No one in the medical profession, not doctors and not the CDC, says that inoculations are risk-free. The risks are small but present, and the side effects run the range, depending on the vaccine, from paralysis to febrile seizures to death. The argument is that the benefits of inoculation far outweigh the risks. That’s fine, but the choice should be mine to make, not the State’s. If you want specific citations, here are a couple of links which include statements and statistics regarding the side effects of the flu vaccine (which in this case includes febrile seizures). [http://www.cdc.gov/FLU/about/qa/flushot.htm](http://www.cdc.gov/FLU/about/qa/flushot.htm) > **[Prevention and Control of Influenza: Recommendations of the Advisory...](https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/rr5606a1.htm)** > [@Captain\_Carrot](#): > > Also, your entire first paragraph applies to greedy insurance companies just as well. Absolutely. I don’t want corporations dictating the terms of health care any more than I want the State doing so. Authoritarian socialism and capitalist monopolies are not the only options available to us. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2009, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-numbnut-who-had-the-freakout-at-the-arlen-specter-townhall-meeting/506206/307 "2009-08-14T22:57:23Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > It’s a reasonless argument. Someone can hit on 18 and get a 3, or play russian roulette and survive. It doesn’t mean it’s a good idea. Plus, those countries suck. Plus, you’re committing the fallacy of adverse selection, by picking countries with socialized healthcare that suck less. > > Cuba has it. So did Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union. _Someone_ doesn’t have his thinking cap on today. He’s picking countries with socialized healthcare, democratic principles of government and broad-based market economies. Think for a second. Which _do_ you think we resemble more- Canada or Cuba? ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2009, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-numbnut-who-had-the-freakout-at-the-arlen-specter-townhall-meeting/506206/308 "2009-08-14T22:59:46Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > I’m glad to hear that someone with a soapbox put it out there. > > I mean, other dopers don’t even pay attention to me. How could I influence the larger debate? Hey, I pay attention to you. I’m just lazy and don’t say so. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2009, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-numbnut-who-had-the-freakout-at-the-arlen-specter-townhall-meeting/506206/309 "2009-08-15T00:44:00Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > _Someone_ doesn’t have his thinking cap on today. > > He’s picking countries with socialized healthcare, democratic principles of government and broad-based market economies. > > Think for a second. Which _do_ you think we resemble more- Canada or Cuba? That’s like asking which of the evil stepsisters, Anastasia or Drizella does Cinderella bare more of a resemblance to. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2009, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-numbnut-who-had-the-freakout-at-the-arlen-specter-townhall-meeting/506206/310 "2009-08-15T00:55:52Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > That’s like asking which of the evil stepsisters, Anastasia or Drizella does Cinderella bare more of a resemblance to. Scylla, bubbie, sit this one out, the smart people are talking. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2009, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-numbnut-who-had-the-freakout-at-the-arlen-specter-townhall-meeting/506206/311 "2009-08-15T01:13:41Z")
> [@Mr.Svinlesha](#): > > Seriously, I ask again: is there a conservative out there who can provide a serious, reality-based argument against public health care? Anyone? Well, since you are the judge of what is serious and reality-based, I’m guessing the answer is no. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2009, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-numbnut-who-had-the-freakout-at-the-arlen-specter-townhall-meeting/506206/312 "2009-08-15T01:25:59Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Scylla, bubbie, sit this one out, the smart people are talking. > [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Well, since you are the judge of what is serious and reality-based, I’m guessing the answer is no. My bad, I guess this is the wingnut section. I’ll leave now. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2009, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-numbnut-who-had-the-freakout-at-the-arlen-specter-townhall-meeting/506206/313 "2009-08-15T02:01:25Z")
I just got back in town, having been on a business trip, but I have been following this circus as best I can. So far we have: Obama wants to kill grandma Obama wants to kill “special needs” children. Obama wants to kill Momma if she falls down and breaks her hip. Today, Obama wants to kill veterans. Obama is either the Joker, or Hitler or maybe both. And the morons out there swallow this right up. This is not honest discussion, this is not honest debate. It is just dishonest fuckwads, inventing outright lies and scaring the shit out of stupid people. The whole thing is flat out disgusting. P.T. Barnum once said something to the effect of never underestimating the stupidity of people. I guess he was right. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2009, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-numbnut-who-had-the-freakout-at-the-arlen-specter-townhall-meeting/506206/314 "2009-08-15T02:14:50Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > This is not honest discussion, this is not honest debate. It is just dishonest fuckwads, inventing outright lies and scaring the shit out of stupid people. > > The whole thing is flat out disgusting. ## Remember that it’s only 20 or 30% dishonest fuckwads out there, and that most of the people you are calling stupid are not stupid. They simply let their opinions be swayed by whatever crap makes its way onto the airwaves. If the Democrats stand firm\* and pass a government plan, most of those who have been swayed by the right’s lies will initially bitch, but when the reality comes around and presents itself to them as lower bills for healthcare, they’ll decide that socialized medicine really ROCKS, and never vote for another Republican as long as they live; which will be a long time because they’ll be getting _decent_ healthcare. \*ha ha, I know, what are the chances of _that?_ ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2009, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-numbnut-who-had-the-freakout-at-the-arlen-specter-townhall-meeting/506206/315 "2009-08-15T02:25:12Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > ## Remember that it’s only 20 or 30% dishonest fuckwads out there, and that most of the people you are calling stupid are not stupid. They simply let their opinions be swayed by whatever crap makes its way onto the airwaves. If the Democrats stand firm\* and pass a government plan, most of those who have been swayed by the right’s lies will initially bitch, but when the reality comes around and presents itself to them as lower bills for healthcare, they’ll decide that socialized medicine really ROCKS, and never vote for another Republican as long as they live; which will be a long time because they’ll be getting _decent_ healthcare. > > \*ha ha, I know, what are the chances of _that?_ There are lots of people out there with real concerns and real questions. We need to be angry with the people who have the nerve to call themselves the news, when they focus on the fringe rather than the real issues. I saw a Democrat today at a town hall saying he’d read the bill and it’s disgusting. Let’s try to focus on the real issues and making some progress. {bound to be imperfect} ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2009, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-numbnut-who-had-the-freakout-at-the-arlen-specter-townhall-meeting/506206/316 "2009-08-15T02:41:11Z")
> [@SmashTheState](#): > > No one in the medical profession, not doctors and not the CDC, says that inoculations are risk-free. The risks are small but present, and the side effects run the range, depending on the vaccine, from paralysis to febrile seizures to death. The argument is that the benefits of inoculation far outweigh the risks. That’s fine, but the choice should be mine to make, not the State’s. I’m going to simplify the argument here, JUST for you. If someone’s child catches smallpox, polio, rabies or The Plague (whatever) just because you want to assert your individuality, I hope you get locked up under whatever law covers it. ---
**Author:** ![athelas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5e9695/32.png) [@athelas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/athelas)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2009, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-numbnut-who-had-the-freakout-at-the-arlen-specter-townhall-meeting/506206/317 "2009-08-15T02:43:10Z")
The free expression of dissent, whether organized, disorganized, etc. is NOT anti-American—we were founded on it and some of our greatest social rethinks have come out of it. [It is perhaps the most American thing a citizen can do.](http://www.breitbart.tv/06-flashback-pelosi-tells-anti-war-protesters-im-a-fan-of-disruptors/) I don’t see the left complaining when [MoveOn.org](http://MoveOn.org) or Code Pink orchestrates protest yet somehow IF these protests have any organized backing they aren’t legitimate? This is part of democracy. Deal with it. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2009, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-numbnut-who-had-the-freakout-at-the-arlen-specter-townhall-meeting/506206/318 "2009-08-15T02:49:27Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > I’m going to simplify the argument here, JUST for you. If someone’s child catches smallpox, polio, rabies or The Plague (whatever) just because you want to assert your individuality, I hope you get locked up under whatever law covers it. My grandmother lost an older brother (when he was only three) to whooping cough. I’m sure my great-grandmother would have just LOVED **Smash** ’s arguments. :rolleyes: Part of the reason we’re seeing so many diseases coming back is because people are refusing to be vaccinated. And all it does is endanger everyone else – the fucking sickos. (Don’t even get me started on antibiotic abuse!) ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2009, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-numbnut-who-had-the-freakout-at-the-arlen-specter-townhall-meeting/506206/319 "2009-08-15T02:56:48Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > There are lots of people out there with real concerns and real questions. We need to be angry with the people who have the nerve to call themselves the news, when they focus on the fringe rather than the real issues. I saw a Democrat today at a town hall saying he’d read the bill and it’s disgusting. Let’s try to focus on the real issues and making some progress. {bound to be imperfect} OK, in a perfect world, people would be talking about real things - economic or budgetary concerns (how do we pay for it), administrative concerns (how to mange this system and who is competent to be the director), and regulatory concerns (how to give it the right amount of authority without giving it too much authority or not enough), that sort of thing. But we would not have a former governor / former “contender” for the Vice Presidency talking about killing special needs children. I like McCain, but considering the lying IDIOT he had for a running mate (a heartbeat away from the presidency) I’m glad he lost now. We would not have one particular SENATOR talking about killing Grandma and bragging about how he only joined the panel in order to sabotage the deal. We now have yet another talking about killing veterans (the latest twist). These assholes are not “the fringe”, are they? There are some silver linings though. Dick Armey got canned, Glenn Beck is starting to lose advertising sponsors, one of the networks (CNN?) has announcd that it no longer will give time to the usual radio talking heads (because they are all the same and are boring), and some Republicans are starting to say enough is enough ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2009, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-numbnut-who-had-the-freakout-at-the-arlen-specter-townhall-meeting/506206/320 "2009-08-15T02:57:08Z")
> [@athelas](#): > > The free expression of dissent, whether organized, disorganized, etc. is NOT anti-American—we were founded on it and some of our greatest social rethinks have come out of it. [It is perhaps the most American thing a citizen can do.](http://www.breitbart.tv/06-flashback-pelosi-tells-anti-war-protesters-im-a-fan-of-disruptors/) I don’t see the left complaining when [MoveOn.org](http://MoveOn.org) or Code Pink orchestrates protest yet somehow IF these protests have any organized backing they aren’t legitimate? This is part of democracy. Deal with it. Sorry, but you are incorrect. Americans have vigorous debate. Asshole simpletons shriek like spoiled children to cut off debate. No matter how many times you assert that this is democracy, it is still bullshit. You sir have a mouth functionally equivalent to a steer’s ass. Good day sir! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-numbnut-who-had-the-freakout-at-the-arlen-specter-townhall-meeting/506206.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-numbnut-who-had-the-freakout-at-the-arlen-specter-townhall-meeting/506206.md?page=17)