# The numbnut who had the freakout at the Arlen Specter townhall meeting **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 12, 2009, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-numbnut-who-had-the-freakout-at-the-arlen-specter-townhall-meeting/506206 "2009-08-12T19:14:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 18
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2009, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-numbnut-who-had-the-freakout-at-the-arlen-specter-townhall-meeting/506206/341 "2009-08-15T15:32:52Z")
> [@SmashTheState](#): > > See, this is a perfect example of what I complain about constantly around here. See if you can follow the bouncing ball. Someone asked if there was anyone who could give a rational objection to State-run universal health care. I could, and did, with a libertarian argument about personal autonomy, and using the example of forced vaccinations as an example of the State compelling people to take risks with their lives “for the greater good” as defined by the State. Except that you didn’t, because forced vaccinations are no more a necessary feature of state-run universal health care than they are a feature of stockholder-run private healthcare. In any case, nobody “made it clear” that there are no health risks associated with vaccinations. We simply didn’t bother to address it, because we figured you’d stop and smell the feces before throwing them. However, the health risks associated with vaccinations are no greater than those associated with any basic medical procedure, and since they’re obviously lower than the risks associated with not being vaccinated, they _produce a net reduction in risk from the mean_. The amount of risk involved is effectively negative. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2009, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-numbnut-who-had-the-freakout-at-the-arlen-specter-townhall-meeting/506206/342 "2009-08-15T16:07:30Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Yes, I can read. Unlike you, I can also perform simple sums. That’s how I was able to figure out that the risks of complications associated with vaccinations are a million times smaller than the risks of not being vaccinated. > > Now run along. Don’t you have some productive members of society to bother on their way to work? Ditto. Maybe I should go look up a few other things that we can bring back, just so Mister Freedom Guy can go on in his deluded little world. Let’s start with polio and smallpox. \*[The Polio History Pages](http://www.cloudnet.com/~edrbsass/poliohistorypage.htm) Polio, or more properly poliomyelitis, was one of the most feared and studied diseases of the first half of the 20th Century. It appeared unpredictably, striking its victims, mostly children, with a frightening randomness that resulted in near panic during the epidemics of the 1940s and 50s. Then, in 1955, a breakthrough occurred when, after massive field trials involving nearly two-million children, the Salk vaccine was shown to be effective in preventing the disease. Today, polio is all-but-forgotten as it has completely disappeared from developed countries, and worldwide eradication is predicted by 2005. However, polio’s legacy remains. It is estimated that there are 600,000 polio survivors living in the United States, and the number worldwide must be in the tens of millions. > **[Poliomyelitis: A Brief History](https://www.eds-resources.com/poliohistory.htm)** The year 1916 saw a large outbreak of polio in the United States. Though the total number of affected individuals is unknown, over 9000 cases were reported in New York city alone. Attempts at controlling the disease largely involved the use of isolation and quarantine. Though these measures proved ineffective, quarantines during polio outbreaks were continued for many decades. ``` The 1920's saw the development and first use of the infamous "iron lung," a metal coffin-like contraption that aided respiration, but imprisoned those polio patients who needed it, in some cases for life. ... ``` With the Salk and later the Sabin vaccines providing a one-two punch, polio was down and out for the count, at least in the United States. In 1964, only 121 cases were reported nationally. Currently, there are typically fewer than ten new cases per year, but none originates from native, “wild” polio virus. Rather, these cases are either vaccine related or “imported.” (Nathanson, 1982). ``` There were still about 100,000 cases of polio worldwide in 1993 (Keegan, 1994), primarily in Asia and Africa. Although there had not been a case of polio due to" native wild polio virus" in the entire western hemisphere since 1991 (Report, 1993), a recent outbreak in Haiti and the Dominican Republic shows the need for continued vaccination efforts, even in apparently "polio-free" areas (PAHO, 2001). The Global Polio Eradication Initiative had set a goal to completely eradicate polio worldwide by the year 2000, but wars, natural disasters, and poverty in about 30 Asian and African nations have prevented this goal from being completely achieved. The new target date for worldwide polio eradication is now 2005 (Orfinger, 2000) ``` > **[Polio](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poliomyelitis)** > > Poliomyelitis (/ˌpoʊlioʊˌmaɪəˈlaɪtɪs/ POH-lee-oh-MY-ə-LY-tiss), commonly shortened to polio, is an infectious disease caused by the poliovirus. Approximately 75% of cases are asymptomatic; mild symptoms which can occur include sore throat and fever; in a proportion of cases more severe symptoms develop such as headache, neck stiffness, and paresthesia. These symptoms usually pass within one or two weeks. A less common symptom is permanent paralysis, and possible death in extreme cases Polio oc... Although major polio epidemics were unknown before the late 19th century, polio was one of the most dreaded childhood diseases of the 20th century. Polio epidemics have crippled thousands of people, mostly young children; the disease has caused paralysis and death for much of human history. Polio had existed for thousands of years quietly as an endemic pathogen until the 1880s, when major epidemics began to occur in Europe; soon after, widespread epidemics appeared in the United States.[6] By 1910, much of the world experienced a dramatic increase in polio cases and frequent epidemics became regular events, primarily in cities during the summer months. These epidemics—which left thousands of children and adults paralyzed—provided the impetus for a “Great Race” towards the development of a vaccine. The polio vaccines developed by Jonas Salk in 1952 and Albert Sabin in 1962 are credited with reducing the global number of polio cases per year from many hundreds of thousands to around a thousand.[7] Enhanced vaccination efforts led by the World Health Organization, UNICEF and Rotary International could result in global eradication of the disease.[8] [http://dermatology.about.com/cs/smallpox/a/smallpoxhx.htm](http://dermatology.about.com/cs/smallpox/a/smallpoxhx.htm) The history of the rise and fall of smallpox is a success story for “modern” medicine and public health. Even though the disease has been eradicated, the threat of its return has once again brought it to the forefront of public controversy. … Millions of people died in Europe and Mexico as a result of widespread smallpox epidemics. The fall of smallpox began with the realization that survivors of the disease were immune for the rest of their lives. This led to the practice of variolation - a process of exposing a healthy person to infected material from a person with smallpox in the hopes of producing a mild disease that provided immunity from further infection. … In 1796, Jenner took the fluid from a cowpox pustule on a dairymaid’s hand and inoculated an 8-year-old boy. Six weeks later, he exposed the boy to smallpox, and the boy did not develop any symptoms. Jenner coined the term “vaccine” from the word “vaca” which means “cow” in Latin. His work was initially criticized, but soon was rapidly accepted and adopted. By 1800 about 100,000 people had been vaccinated worldwide. … In 1967 the World Health Organization (WHO) started a worldwide campaign to eradicate smallpox. This goal was accomplished in 10 years due in a large part to massive vaccination efforts. The last endemic case of smallpox occurred in Somalia in 1977. On May 8, 1980, the World Health Assembly declared the world free of smallpox. \* Hmmm. Crippled, dead, iron lungs, thousands, MILLIONS, etc. Smashy, I think the idea that a disease can be virtually eliminated is worth the small risk associated with a vaccine. I think the idea that millions can be protected far far FAR outweighs your precious delusions. I’ve presented you with historical information. But, you don’t care, it’s all about you asserting your “rugged individualism”, isn’t it. I’m glad most of the world didn’t see it your way. I wonder… There are risks associated with surgery. If you suddenly developed a life threatening heart condition, or a malgnant tumor, would you refuse treatment because of the risks? I bet you wouldn’t. So how does it make sense to refuse procedures that actually PREVENT a condition from even starting? My GOD you are an idiot, Smashy. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Svinlesha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/22d042/32.png) [@Mr.Svinlesha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Svinlesha)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2009, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-numbnut-who-had-the-freakout-at-the-arlen-specter-townhall-meeting/506206/343 "2009-08-15T16:07:48Z")
**Really** : > [@](#): > > _Except that you didn’t, because forced vaccinations are no more a necessary feature of state-run universal health care than they are a feature of stockholder-run private healthcare._ Not to take sides here, but I understood **STS** ’s reference to forced inoculations as a random example of the State’s abuse of power rather than a necessary feature of a state run health care system. He was just pointing out a current practical instance in which the State mandates a medical procedure that infringes on the rights of the individual, because it’s required by law. Interestingly, I didn’t realize vaccinations were mandatory in the States. Here in Sweden, by contrast, where we suffer under the burden of our onerous, state-run health care system, vaccinations are not mandatory – just “strongly recommended” by the Swedish Board of Health. But my real objection to this particular example is that in it, **STS** wants to arbitrarily separate the State from the will of the people. Now I’ll definitely agree that the will of the people can be manipulated, and that the State can be conceptualized in some instances – arguably many instances – as a tool of repression by which one class oppresses another. But just in this particular instance – and also in many others – it seems like the State can also function as executor of the will of the majority, for the common good. In fact, one could conceptualize the State as the nexus of conflict between different class interests, and note that it isn’t entirely run by the elite. Civil rights legislation was definitely a result of mass mobilization, for example. But if **STS** is a libertarian, then I’ve been arguing against an imaginary opponent anyway, so I’ll just shut up now. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2009, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-numbnut-who-had-the-freakout-at-the-arlen-specter-townhall-meeting/506206/344 "2009-08-15T16:16:00Z")
Democracy is practical anarchy. I don’t care how big the State is, so long as we own it. ---
**Author:** ![SmashTheState](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@SmashTheState](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmashTheState)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2009, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-numbnut-who-had-the-freakout-at-the-arlen-specter-townhall-meeting/506206/345 "2009-08-15T16:18:55Z")
> [@Mr.Svinlesha](#): > > Not to take sides here, but I understood **STS** ’s reference to forced inoculations as a random example of the State’s abuse of power rather than a necessary feature of a state run health care system. He was just pointing out a current practical instance in which the State mandates a medical procedure that infringes on the rights of the individual, because it’s required by law. That is in fact the case. > [@Mr.Svinlesha](#): > > But my real objection to this particular example is that in it, **STS** wants to arbitrarily separate the State from the will of the people. Now I’ll definitely agree that the will of the people can be manipulated, and that the State can be conceptualized in some instances – arguably many instances – as a tool of repression by which one class oppresses another. But just in this particular instance – and also in many others – it seems like the State can also function as executor of the will of the majority, for the common good. In fact, one could conceptualize the State as the nexus of conflict between different class interests, and note that it isn’t entirely run by the elite. Civil rights legislation was definitely a result of mass mobilization, for example. Ideally what we want is a situation where people voluntarily accept risk through their own enlightened self-interest, recognizing that occasionally subordinating your own immediate needs and desires to those of people around you often results in a net benefit for everyone, including, ultimately, yourself. As a voluntary socialist, I always accept more than my pro-rated share of any burden in the knowledge that by doing so I am relieving those who can’t carry quite as much. > [@Mr.Svinlesha](#): > > But if **STS** is a libertarian, then I’ve been arguing against an imaginary opponent anyway, so I’ll just shut up now. I use “libertarian” in the original sense of anarchosyndicalist. The word was coined to describe Pierre-Joseph Proudhon, and was hijacked by the Amerikan propertarian Randroids. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2009, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-numbnut-who-had-the-freakout-at-the-arlen-specter-townhall-meeting/506206/346 "2009-08-15T16:34:12Z")
> [@SmashTheState](#): > > That is in fact the case. > > Ideally what we want is a situation where people voluntarily accept risk through their own enlightened self-interest, recognizing that occasionally subordinating your own immediate needs and desires to those of people around you often results in a net benefit for everyone, including, ultimately, yourself. As a voluntary socialist, I always accept more than my pro-rated share of any burden in the knowledge that by doing so I am relieving those who can’t carry quite as much. > . If the underlined is your TRUE position, then I will drop the subject (I agree with it). I am against FORCED medical care, and I am also against willful refusal of medical or preventive care. ---
**Author:** ![SmashTheState](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@SmashTheState](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmashTheState)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2009, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-numbnut-who-had-the-freakout-at-the-arlen-specter-townhall-meeting/506206/347 "2009-08-15T16:39:44Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Democracy is practical anarchy. I don’t care how big the State is, so long as we own it. **Direct** democracy is practical anarchy. Representative democracy is almost never representative, and under no circumstances democratic. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2009, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-numbnut-who-had-the-freakout-at-the-arlen-specter-townhall-meeting/506206/348 "2009-08-15T16:53:56Z")
Well, then, I can either give up or ignore you. Hmmmm. Tough call. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2009, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-numbnut-who-had-the-freakout-at-the-arlen-specter-townhall-meeting/506206/349 "2009-08-15T18:23:28Z")
> [@Mr.Svinlesha](#): > > Interestingly, I didn’t realize vaccinations were mandatory in the States. They aren’t. That’s part of why our anti-vax movement is doing its level best to eliminate herd immunity. In certain specific cases, like if you want to send you child to college/public (and most private) schools, the schools will demand an immunization record so they don’t admit a potential plague dog. But adults/the home schooled are free to run around and try to bring back whatever deadly scourge they’d like. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2009, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-numbnut-who-had-the-freakout-at-the-arlen-specter-townhall-meeting/506206/350 "2009-08-15T22:44:25Z")
> [@SmashTheState](#): > > Representative democracy is almost never representative, and under no circumstances democratic. Do “Grape Nuts” next. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2009, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-numbnut-who-had-the-freakout-at-the-arlen-specter-townhall-meeting/506206/351 "2009-08-15T23:22:49Z")
Many parts of a democracy _are_ edible, dontcha know. ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2009, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-numbnut-who-had-the-freakout-at-the-arlen-specter-townhall-meeting/506206/352 "2009-08-16T05:55:07Z")
And crunchy! ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2009, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-numbnut-who-had-the-freakout-at-the-arlen-specter-townhall-meeting/506206/353 "2009-08-16T06:04:58Z")
Demokraky. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2009, 6:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-numbnut-who-had-the-freakout-at-the-arlen-specter-townhall-meeting/506206/354 "2009-08-16T06:16:20Z")
With a soft creamy filling. ---
**Author:** ![PrettyVacant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/49beb7/32.png) [@PrettyVacant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PrettyVacant)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2009, 10:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-numbnut-who-had-the-freakout-at-the-arlen-specter-townhall-meeting/506206/355 "2009-08-16T10:24:43Z")
That link in the OP is pretty sad. I wonder what percentage of the adult population are now so confused or have been so provoked into a bogus emotional/ideological anger they can’t figure out a rational positon for themselves. If people were just allowed to fold away the flags and isolate the ideology. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2009, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-numbnut-who-had-the-freakout-at-the-arlen-specter-townhall-meeting/506206/356 "2009-08-16T15:37:34Z")
> [@Mr.Svinlesha](#): > > **Me** : > **StS** : > LOL. > > If being an anarchist qualifies you as a conservative, man are you preaching a very strange form of anarchy… > > But okay. Actually, I think state-run medical service present a bit of a problem for anarchists, due to economies of scale. (I’m going to assume for this discussion that you’re an anarcho-syndicalist, and not some strange variant of extreme libertarian/national syndicalist.) By that I mean that some very important sorts of medical services need to be administered at a much higher level than the local community. For example, Bob in California needs a new kidney; Jim in Maine has just died in a car accident, and has two fresh kidneys available. How can Bob receive a kidney from Jim without an entity larger than the local community managing the health system? > > This doesn’t necessarily make anarchism impossible when it comes to managing health care, but does pose serious challenges. That’s just one example. > > In addition, my response to you is: okay, fine. Maybe some day in the very distant future we’ll live in a more decentralized society. But now, today, we live in this imperfect world. And in this world, millions of people have no health care at all, and others are at the mercy of these predatory insurance companies. Honestly, I don’t think many anarchists here (in Sweden) would be against a centralized health system per se. They are more interested in empowering local communities, giving workers more power over the means of production, and that sort of thing. Anyway, you’d have to have a heart of stone to take the position you want millions of people to suffer and die in order to institute a political order that, really, is very, very far from being realized. > > (If you want my take on it, by the way, a proper anarchistic response would be to ignore what the government is doing, find a group of like-minded individuals and build a “consumer-owned” insurance company, i.e., an “insurance syndicate.” Direct action, baby!) > > Finally, and this is a really important point, you write: > > Placing this power in the hands of a local community, instead of the state, does not guarantee that the local community will provide the service. Let’s say we lived in a small community of about 500 people, and among these people was **Rand Rover** – who, as we know, is an asshole. **RR** gets a toothache. Maybe 300 hundred of us decide we’d just as soon let him suffer, because we find him to be an insufferable ass? Well, looks like **RR** is out of luck. In other words – and I know this leads on to a much larger discussion, really, but just to explain myself a bit – I’m not sure why anarchists believe that devolving power to a local level will somehow immunize it from the abuses we see at a national level. > > Honestly, in practice, most of the anarchists I knew personally were people with a strange duality; they had all the “morally correct” political convictions, but treated people around them like complete shit. Mostly. And this is a problem that runs through the anarchist movement as whole, I suspect; Kropotkin, for example, was famously domineering and dogmatic in his private life, despite his anarchistic ideals. Man, I can’t wait until I get my capitalism re-education camps up and running. You’ll be the first “student.” Your post assumes that someone who doesn’t want national government control over health care must want local government control over health care and that there’s no way for health care to be managed without government involvement, both of which are ludicrous. On your kidney example–who tells the farmer in Iowa that a bakery in California wants some flour? Nobody? My god man, then how does the farmer know to plant wheat? I need to lie down for a little while. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2009, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-numbnut-who-had-the-freakout-at-the-arlen-specter-townhall-meeting/506206/357 "2009-08-16T15:39:14Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > I know, I feel it too. But enough of these frightened, small people make a movement that can hurt the country. Much like the movement that got Obama elected… ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2009, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-numbnut-who-had-the-freakout-at-the-arlen-specter-townhall-meeting/506206/358 "2009-08-16T15:45:10Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > Much like the movement that got Obama elected… Try to be to keep up Clothahump. It’s not your country anymore. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2009, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-numbnut-who-had-the-freakout-at-the-arlen-specter-townhall-meeting/506206/359 "2009-08-16T18:15:32Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > Much like the movement that got Obama elected… Don’t be silly. The uninformed and stupid are your side. Take that video at the start of this thread. The Republican party is full of people just like you. Also, I can’t help but picture you as a wizened little turtle with heavy glasses. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2009, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-numbnut-who-had-the-freakout-at-the-arlen-specter-townhall-meeting/506206/360 "2009-08-16T19:19:46Z")
And the Democratic party is full of people like the lady interviewed at the convention saying that Obama would pay her bills if he got elected. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-numbnut-who-had-the-freakout-at-the-arlen-specter-townhall-meeting/506206.md?page=17) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-numbnut-who-had-the-freakout-at-the-arlen-specter-townhall-meeting/506206.md?page=19)