# The NYC biker gang beat down **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [October 3, 2013, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nyc-biker-gang-beat-down/670236 "2013-10-03T01:14:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2013, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nyc-biker-gang-beat-down/670236/241 "2013-11-10T20:05:12Z")
> [@epbrown01](#): > > **SIGH**. I’m supposed to be disappointed that they aren’t as big of douchebags as they claimed to be? :rolleyes: You spent a hell of a lot of energy defending their claims, getting after people for not believing you. And it wound up they were lying. ---
**Author:** ![epbrown01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7ba0ec/32.png) [@epbrown01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/epbrown01)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2013, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nyc-biker-gang-beat-down/670236/242 "2013-11-10T20:11:13Z")
> [@TokyoBayer](#): > > You spent a hell of a lot of energy defending their claims, getting after people for not believing you. > And it wound up they were lying. Actually, no, I didn’t. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2013, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nyc-biker-gang-beat-down/670236/243 "2013-11-11T15:32:17Z")
> [@TokyoBayer](#): > > Do you remember [insisting that it was all caused by a roadblock](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=16729909&postcount=108) because the bikers said so? > > Funny that after a through investigation, it was found out that these assholes were lying. Who would have thought? it says in the article that they surrounded the car and slowed down. They were doing it presumably so that they had unfettered access to the road ahead so they could play their motorcycle games without any cars interfering. Does traffic have to brought to a complete stop for a definition of blocking the road? Is that your argument because I don’t understand it. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2013, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nyc-biker-gang-beat-down/670236/244 "2013-11-11T15:34:57Z")
> [@friedo](#): > > Update: > > 11 of these jackholes, including the undercover cop, have been [indicted](http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/09/nyregion/11-motorcyclists-are-indicted-in-assault-on-an-suv-driver.html?ref=nyregion&_r=0) on charges of gang assault and riot. Good. Through in attempted murder as well. ---
**Author:** ![VarlosZ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d78d45/32.png) [@VarlosZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VarlosZ)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2013, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nyc-biker-gang-beat-down/670236/245 "2013-11-11T17:24:39Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > My car has reverse. And if I’m swarmed by crazy people on motorcycles I’m going to be doing S turns to knock them over as they try to pass. It’s easy to imagine doing that, but then when I inevitably had to stop for traffic (or gas), I would fully expect to be beaten literally to death. And, if I managed to make it to a police station or other safe haven first, I’d worry that it would be hard to prove that the guy who left a trail of (possibly) dead bikers in his wake was actually blameless. In other words, I think that course of action makes it way, way more likely that you wind up either dead or in jail. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2013, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nyc-biker-gang-beat-down/670236/246 "2013-11-11T17:32:10Z")
> [@VarlosZ](#): > > It’s easy to imagine doing that, but then when I inevitably had to stop for traffic (or gas), I would fully expect to be beaten literally to death. And, if I managed to make it to a police station or other safe haven first, I’d worry that it would be hard to prove that the guy who left a trail of (possibly) dead bikers in his wake was actually blameless. > > In other words, I think that course of action makes it way, way more likely that you wind up either dead or in jail. They were attacking him and his family. The only weapon he had was his car. The likely course of action of doing nothing is whatever the thugs intend to do. A frantic call to police followed by whatever self defense the driver can muster is all that can be done. I’d worry about my family before I worried about the bikers. And right now they’re the ones in jail, not the guy who defended himself with his vehicle. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2013, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nyc-biker-gang-beat-down/670236/247 "2013-11-11T17:50:49Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > it says in the article that they surrounded the car and slowed down. They were doing it presumably so that they had unfettered access to the road ahead so they could play their motorcycle games without any cars interfering. Does traffic have to brought to a complete stop for a definition of blocking the road? Is that your argument because I don’t understand it. **epbrown01** has claimed several times specifically that the roadblock was on an onramp, and that the driver of the SUV has gone around the roadblock, hitting a bike, despite that not being in any news sources and after at least I had asked for a cite. Everyone else was saying that Mr Lien has hit a bike which was speed checking him. The latest court action backs that version. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2013, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nyc-biker-gang-beat-down/670236/248 "2013-11-11T17:55:59Z")
> [@TokyoBayer](#): > > **epbrown01** has claimed several times specifically that the roadblock was on an onramp, and that the driver of the SUV has gone around the roadblock, hitting a bike, despite that not being in any news sources and after at least I had asked for a cite. > > Everyone else was saying that Mr Lien has hit a bike which was speed checking him. The latest court action backs that version. And you don’t see shutting down a highway by speed checking traffic as a deliberate roadblock? ---
**Author:** ![snailboy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/97f17d/32.png) [@snailboy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snailboy)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2013, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nyc-biker-gang-beat-down/670236/249 "2013-11-11T18:04:44Z")
> [@VarlosZ](#): > > It’s easy to imagine doing that, but then when I inevitably had to stop for traffic (or gas), I would fully expect to be beaten literally to death. And, if I managed to make it to a police station or other safe haven first, I’d worry that it would be hard to prove that the guy who left a trail of (possibly) dead bikers in his wake was actually blameless. > > In other words, I think that course of action makes it way, way more likely that you wind up either dead or in jail. I should hope that unless you’re already low on gas, the police will be able to catch up to you by the time you run out. I can’t imagine driving around for an hour or two in a Mad Max scenario in New York and the cops doing nothing. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2013, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nyc-biker-gang-beat-down/670236/250 "2013-11-11T18:45:35Z")
> [@snailboy](#): > > I should hope that unless you’re already low on gas, the police will be able to catch up to you by the time you run out. I can’t imagine driving around for an hour or two in a Mad Max scenario in New York and the cops doing nothing. Well a cop did do something – and has been arrested for it. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![VarlosZ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d78d45/32.png) [@VarlosZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VarlosZ)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2013, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nyc-biker-gang-beat-down/670236/251 "2013-11-11T19:00:48Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > They were attacking him and his family. The only weapon he had was his car. The likely course of action of doing nothing is whatever the thugs intend to do. A frantic call to police followed by whatever self defense the driver can muster is all that can be done. There are still options, as evidenced by the fact that the driver didn’t do what you suggested. I think if he had been going out of his way during the chase to slam into the bikers and knock them down, there’s a good chance that, at the end of it, he would have been not merely beaten, but killed. Certainly it makes that outcome more likely. > [@](#): > > And right now they’re the ones in jail, not the guy who defended himself with his vehicle. But the thing that happened isn’t the only thing that \*could \*have happened. There didn’t need to be video of the chase. Say there was no helmet cam, and that the SUV driver had actually made it to a police precinct with the bikers in tow. The police come out and everyone starts pointing figures. If the SUV and its occupants are basically unharmed while there are a half dozen dead bikers littering the West Side Highway, I think the SUV driver _might be_ in pretty big trouble. It’s for the best that he wasn’t trying to swerve into the bikers, as tempting as that sounds. ---
**Author:** ![snailboy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/97f17d/32.png) [@snailboy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snailboy)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2013, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nyc-biker-gang-beat-down/670236/252 "2013-11-11T22:10:56Z")
> [@VarlosZ](#): > > There are still options, as evidenced by the fact that the driver didn’t do what you suggested. I think if he had been going out of his way during the chase to slam into the bikers and knock them down, there’s a good chance that, at the end of it, he would have been not merely beaten, but killed. Certainly it makes that outcome more likely. Not much more likely, as opposed to his odds of escaping unscathed, which are far more likely if he shows he’s willing to run over anyone chasing him. I must say, rather bluntly, that it sickens me that people are willing to just roll over and be at the mercy of a bunch of thugs when they have the ability to fight back. It’s people like yourself that are the reason they do what they do in the first place. If they had thought from the start that a lot of them were going to die if they did what they did, then they wouldn’t have done it. ---
**Author:** ![VarlosZ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d78d45/32.png) [@VarlosZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VarlosZ)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2013, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nyc-biker-gang-beat-down/670236/253 "2013-11-12T01:29:38Z")
> [@snailboy](#): > > Not much more likely, as opposed to his odds of escaping unscathed, which are far more likely if he shows he’s willing to run over anyone chasing him. Not for a second do I buy this. Perhaps you or I would back off in the face of that sort of aggression, but a fucking _biker gang?_ No, you’d just be chumming the waters. > [@](#): > > I must say, rather bluntly, that it sickens me that people are willing to just roll over and be at the mercy of a bunch of thugs when they have the ability to fight back. It’s people like yourself that are the reason they do what they do in the first place. If they had thought from the start that a lot of them were going to die if they did what they did, then they wouldn’t have done it. No doubt the bikers felt the same way. And now they’re in jail. ---
**Author:** ![snailboy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/97f17d/32.png) [@snailboy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snailboy)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2013, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nyc-biker-gang-beat-down/670236/254 "2013-11-12T02:40:27Z")
> [@VarlosZ](#): > > Not for a second do I buy this. Perhaps you or I would back off in the face of that sort of aggression, but a fucking _biker gang?_ No, you’d just be chumming the waters. Well then they’d all get ran over, at least if I was the one in the car. I have no desire to throw myself at the mercy of a bunch of thugs who started attacking me when I can just run them over. > [@](#): > > No doubt the bikers felt the same way. And now they’re in jail. They’re in jail because they started it. They weren’t protecting themselves. The guy in the automobile had the right to do that. At least in Texas, a person has recourse if they feel their life is threatened. ---
**Author:** ![VarlosZ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d78d45/32.png) [@VarlosZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VarlosZ)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2013, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nyc-biker-gang-beat-down/670236/255 "2013-11-12T03:09:34Z")
> [@snailboy](#): > > Well then they’d all get ran over, at least if I was the one in the car. Probably not, no. Before long they’d start to hang back, and then at some point you’d hit traffic or a red light (as actually happened), at which point the bikers might feel justified in killing you. “How dare they! I’ll show them!” is just not a very \*profitable \*outlook, even when you are, in fact, in the right. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2013, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nyc-biker-gang-beat-down/670236/256 "2013-11-12T03:13:34Z")
> [@VarlosZ](#): > > There are still options, as evidenced by the fact that the driver didn’t do what you suggested. I think if he had been going out of his way during the chase to slam into the bikers and knock them down, there’s a good chance that, at the end of it, he would have been not merely beaten, but killed. Certainly it makes that outcome more likely. If he did as I suggested there wouldn’t be any bikers standing to attack him. 5000 lb steel cage SUV versus no protection 400 lb motorcycle. SUV wins every time. ---
**Author:** ![snailboy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/97f17d/32.png) [@snailboy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snailboy)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2013, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nyc-biker-gang-beat-down/670236/257 "2013-11-12T03:28:17Z")
> [@VarlosZ](#): > > Probably not, no. Before long they’d start to hang back, and then at some point you’d hit traffic or a red light (as actually happened), at which point the bikers might feel justified in killing you. All he had to do was throw it into reverse. > [@](#): > > “How dare they! I’ll show them!” is just not a very \*profitable \*outlook, even when you are, in fact, in the right. Street punks like targets that aren’t going to fight back so they can feel like badasses. Most likely they would have backed off when they realized things weren’t working out in their favor. If that didn’t happen, then darwinism would have happened. ---
**Author:** ![VarlosZ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d78d45/32.png) [@VarlosZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VarlosZ)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2013, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nyc-biker-gang-beat-down/670236/258 "2013-11-12T03:28:34Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > If he did as I suggested there wouldn’t be any bikers standing to attack him. 5000 lb steel cage SUV versus no protection 400 lb motorcycle. SUV wins every time. 1. There’s no way you get them all before they wise up and decide to hang back and wait for you to be stopped by traffic. 2. What do you do when you’re accused of killing and/or maiming a dozen bikers in the face of no \*demonstrable \*injury or danger to yourself? Remember, you can’t count on some exonerating video to surface. ---
**Author:** ![VarlosZ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d78d45/32.png) [@VarlosZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VarlosZ)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2013, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nyc-biker-gang-beat-down/670236/259 "2013-11-12T03:30:41Z")
> [@snailboy](#): > > All he had to do was throw it into reverse. Which would work great as long as all the bikers stayed directly behind the SUV and didn’t pay particularly close attention. > [@](#): > > Street punks like targets that aren’t going to fight back so they can feel like badasses. Most likely they would have backed off when they realized things weren’t working out in their favor. I just don’t think human nature works that way. When you push someone – \*particularly \*a macho asshole – they usually push back. ---
**Author:** ![snailboy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/97f17d/32.png) [@snailboy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snailboy)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2013, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nyc-biker-gang-beat-down/670236/260 "2013-11-12T03:34:42Z")
> [@VarlosZ](#): > > Which would work great as long as all the bikers stayed directly behind the SUV and didn’t pay particularly close attention. It’s better if they don’t stay behind him. It makes it easier for him to drive in reverse and if he’s driving, they can’t pull him out of the car and beat/kill him. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nyc-biker-gang-beat-down/670236.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nyc-biker-gang-beat-down/670236.md?page=14)