# The NYC biker gang beat down **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [October 3, 2013, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nyc-biker-gang-beat-down/670236 "2013-10-03T01:14:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2013, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nyc-biker-gang-beat-down/670236/41 "2013-10-03T17:04:22Z")
Under the category of armchair quarterbacking, I wonder why the bikers were able to get the driver’s door open that first time? Door locks don’t work? ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2013, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nyc-biker-gang-beat-down/670236/42 "2013-10-03T17:14:43Z")
Am I the only one that thinks the driver of the RR panicked and made things worse? This is not meant to defend any of the bikers. I hope they get everything that the NYPD has coming to them. Still, surrounded by a bunch of loud bikes in any circumstance, a prudent driver backs right off and does everything he/she can to diffuse any potential for things going wrong. There had to be a moment in time when the driver should have realized he needed to turn on the hazzard lights, back off and take every precaution not to antagonize these a-holes. Maybe he did so and ran into the back of a bike anyway. We may never know the specifics of the circumstances at this point. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2013, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nyc-biker-gang-beat-down/670236/43 "2013-10-03T17:18:44Z")
Yeah, the driver got scared and panicked, but the bikers were behaving in a way intended to scare and intimidate them. What do you know, he then got scared and panicked and one of the bikers can’t walk anymore, whoopsie! ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2013, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nyc-biker-gang-beat-down/670236/44 "2013-10-03T17:24:43Z")
Why would you waste time shooting them, when you have a much more effective weapon readily available? ---
**Author:** ![Uber\_the\_Goober](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/58956e/32.png) [@Uber\_the\_Goober](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uber_the_Goober)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2013, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nyc-biker-gang-beat-down/670236/45 "2013-10-03T17:26:12Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Why would you waste time shooting them, when you have a much more effective weapon readily available? Watching the video, he was at that point stuck in traffic, with nowhere at all to go. Truly backed into a corner. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2013, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nyc-biker-gang-beat-down/670236/46 "2013-10-03T17:26:59Z")
What kind of biker ever thinks bike vs. car is winnable? I don’t know if it qualifies as a truism or not, but veteran bikers all have sayings to the effect of, “stupid bikers don’t stay bikers for very long.” ---
**Author:** ![Hampshire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hampshire/32/4887_2.png) [@Hampshire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hampshire)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2013, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nyc-biker-gang-beat-down/670236/47 "2013-10-03T18:20:41Z")
> [@Uber\_the\_Goober](#): > > But at least your family would be safe. Once the bikers started dropping, I can’t imagine that any more would continue to press on. > > And I don’t even like guns… I could see it going the other way. These punks were armed with knives already since it was reported they slashed his tire(s). Whose to say one or several of them weren’t already packing guns? Give them an excuse to use them (crazed guy in the SUV started shooting my friends and I now have the right to defend myself) and we now have widowed single mom. ---
**Author:** ![Count\_Blucher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Count\_Blucher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Count_Blucher)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2013, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nyc-biker-gang-beat-down/670236/48 "2013-10-03T18:23:48Z")
Suv wins assuming space, gas, and mobility. Mob wins assuming all vehicles stopped. Id like to think people on both sides would be smarter. #sadlymistaken ---
**Author:** ![Tethered\_Kite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a5b964/32.png) [@Tethered\_Kite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tethered_Kite)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2013, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nyc-biker-gang-beat-down/670236/49 "2013-10-03T18:53:52Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > What kind of biker ever thinks bike vs. car is winnable? I don’t know if it qualifies as a truism or not, but veteran bikers all have sayings to the effect of, “stupid bikers don’t stay bikers for very long.” And some of them don’t even _stay_ very long. We’ve got these dangerous little bastards in our small city. They love to come up on seniors out for a mellow ride and show off. Usually they’re doing something illegal. Mostly they’re an annoyance. Got more horsepower and testosterone than they’re ready to cope with. As a mom my second response (after fear for my safety and wanting to do something lethal) is to expect to see a broken kid and trashed bike on the road somewhere up ahead. So far it hasn’t reached the level of this particular bunch. But any amount of playing ego games in the company of other riders/traffic is outright crazy. And if it’s a trend I imagine it will be here soon enough. And one of them was forty-two? Check his blood. Nothing there? Give the young adult a brain scan. Sumpin’s wrong. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2013, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nyc-biker-gang-beat-down/670236/50 "2013-10-03T19:03:20Z")
This just in: The “paralyzed” biker hasn’t had a license since it was revoked in '99, was recently arrested for it, and has never had a motorcycle license. [http://www.chron.com/news/crime/article/Biker-injured-in-NY-recently-arrested-in-Mass-4865982.php](http://www.chron.com/news/crime/article/Biker-injured-in-NY-recently-arrested-in-Mass-4865982.php) It sounds cold, but the only people saying this injured cyclist is paralyzed is his family? Same family on the news crying about what an innocent victim he is? I wonder if he’s really that injured. Has the hospital confirmed anything? Can they? ---
**Author:** ![Uber\_the\_Goober](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/58956e/32.png) [@Uber\_the\_Goober](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uber_the_Goober)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2013, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nyc-biker-gang-beat-down/670236/51 "2013-10-03T20:31:16Z")
> [@Hampshire](#): > > I could see it going the other way. These punks were armed with knives already since it was reported they slashed his tire(s). Whose to say one or several of them weren’t already packing guns? > Give them an excuse to use them (crazed guy in the SUV started shooting my friends and I now have the right to defend myself) and we now have widowed single mom. Yeah, I realize that option too…I just don’t know that I would act differently, given the panic I’d be feeling. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2013, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nyc-biker-gang-beat-down/670236/52 "2013-10-03T21:19:40Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > With a small child strapped in, in the back seat? A gun owner who carries ought to expect his attackers to be at least as well armed, and a gun battle on the highway with bullets flying through the car would be a very bad idea, and even worse when trapped on a blocked surface street. And don’t forget this is New York. I’m not sure if I would rather be in the hands of a mob or a New York court as a person defending myself with a gun. The victim would most certainly get more jail time than any assailant. > [@levdrakon](#): > > Yeah, this particular time they impounded a bunch of bikes. The blog also said there isn’t much they can do, which I took to mean that besides this one well-videoed incident, this happens all the time and there isn’t much they can do. So? I don’t believe it happens all the time. From what I get it has happened at least one time before. This one was organized over the internet. Their target was Times Square. The NYPD got wind of it. I’m sure the NYPD concentrated on where they knew they were going. This particular incident happened on the West Side Highway (which is officially the Joe DiMaggio Highway but I don’t know anyone who calls it that) and its not close to Times Square. Not close by Manhattan standards which has more to do with how long it takes to get there rather than actual distance. ---
**Author:** ![epbrown01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7ba0ec/32.png) [@epbrown01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/epbrown01)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2013, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nyc-biker-gang-beat-down/670236/53 "2013-10-04T04:25:54Z")
> [@bengangmo](#): > > I don’t have a cite for it - but I understand he WAS on the phone to 911 during the episode. > > When I look at the video, it seems apparent that something happened before the video started, something that the bikers were trying to get revenge for - the “hit a parked bike” allegation has come out in that sense. > > How true it is though, I don’t know… Yeah, that part makes it even worse. Turns out the group wanted a section of the highway to themselves for stunts and speed runs, so a bunch of them blocked several on-ramps with their bikes so cars couldn’t get on. Mr. Lien apparently saw no reason a bunch of civilians should be allowed to block a public road and drove around the motorcycles, knocking one over. This is why they were chasing him when the video starts, and why for a lot of the video you see nothing on the road but him and the bikes. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2013, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nyc-biker-gang-beat-down/670236/54 "2013-10-04T04:44:07Z")
> [@epbrown01](#): > > It’s been all over the bike forums. The video shows these guys are awful riders - in a group, it’s standard to use one lane, riding in staggered 2-by-2 formation. These guys were all over the place, and the rider the Range Rover knocked to the ground made a risky lane change to get in front the guy then braked (apparently posing for a camera). While the driver stopped initially, the guys were hitting his SUV and trying his doors, so he grew worried it would escalate and made a run for it; unfortunately, he apparently [seriously injured](http://www.bostonmagazine.com/news/blog/2013/10/01/lawrence-motorcyclist-injured-nyc-jay-meezee/) one of the group. > > Awful situation, but pretty much all the blame lies with the riders. Videos from this ride and past rides show all sorts of risky, often illegal behaviors. If a group of anybody collectively tried to swarm and menace me I would assume they meant bodily harm and respond in kind. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2013, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nyc-biker-gang-beat-down/670236/55 "2013-10-04T04:57:13Z")
> [@Count\_Blucher](#): > > Suv wins assuming space, gas, and mobility. Mob wins assuming all vehicles stopped. Id like to think people on both sides would be smarter. #sadlymistaken Crush the bikers into the vehicle next you you. Lather rinse repeat until they’re all identifiable through DNA samples. ---
**Author:** ![ZebraShaSha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/eada6e/32.png) [@ZebraShaSha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZebraShaSha)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2013, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nyc-biker-gang-beat-down/670236/56 "2013-10-04T05:00:27Z")
So what would be the consequences if “they made him lose control” and he swerved waaaaaaay to the right, then waaaaaaaay to the left, before correcting and moving forward? Cause that’d be my first instinct. Probably take out a bunch of them… ---
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2013, 6:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nyc-biker-gang-beat-down/670236/57 "2013-10-04T06:45:43Z")
> [@Uber\_the\_Goober](#): > > Honestly, in that position, I can’t imagine any other response. Maybe hindsight shows it differently, but in the moment, an overwhelming show of force would be the only defense left. Instinct and fear would take over, and people would be dropping like flies. Nobody there was in a clear state of mind, and nobody can say that they would have acted in a different way if they were in the same emotional state as the car driver. Maybe they can say they wouldn’t have been so fearful, but that’s a different point. > > Me, if driven to that kind of fear for my life/family’s life, and I had a gun? assuming a 9 round clip, we’d have 4 dead bikers and one more at least injured. Two shots to center mass almost guarantees your continued safety. At least the video would be there to support your self defense claims. Without it, jailtime and murder charges would likely follow. > > But at least your family would be safe. Once the bikers started dropping, I can’t imagine that any more would continue to press on. > > And I don’t even like guns… I can’t really argue with the emotions, or say that it wouldn’t be “justified” or that the bikers didn’t deserve it. But to me, this has always been the flaw in “defensive gun use”. Even though they were being intimidating, and called it upon themselves, I can’t really say that four dead would be a better outcome than the driver having been beaten up, but not “seriously” injured. And that’s before, as mentioned up-thread, you even start thinking about any of the bikers also being armed. If the driver is carrying a gun, and uses it, what makes you think that several of the bikers weren’t also carrying? And one thing for sure - an SUV makes a far easier target to hit than a biker. Fine, if the driver happens to be the only one with a gun, he “wins” (if you call killing four people a win). however, in gun thread after gun thread you see advocates calling for all citizens to be armed - all I can see happening in a situation like this if more people were armed, is a far greater level of carnage. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2013, 6:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nyc-biker-gang-beat-down/670236/58 "2013-10-04T06:56:55Z")
> [@bengangmo](#): > > Even though they were being intimidating, and called it upon themselves, I can’t really say that four dead would be a better outcome than the driver having been beaten up, but not “seriously” injured. Self-defense is to stop future harm, though, and that’s always going to be unquantifiable. At least at the end, knives were being used. Once people are attacking you with knives, the reasonable range of outcomes includes death _and_ minor injury. But you don’t have to (and can’t) wait until 100% certainty of death to take action to save your life. ---
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2013, 6:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nyc-biker-gang-beat-down/670236/59 "2013-10-04T06:57:35Z")
> [@Zebra](#): > > That part of the video is just not available. :rolleyes: Not exactly sure what the “roll eyes” is for…? Someone else has already mentioned that there was drama prior to video starting…which of course doesn’t justify or absolve - but it does let us learn from it right? In this case, perhaps we can learn that discretion is truely the better part of valour? That car really is \> bike? That it’s not a good idea to brake check a car? - even if he has “pissed you off” That warm bodies don’t make much of a barrier against an SUV? That, when being chased by bikes, it’s not a good idea to get off the highway and be stuck in traffic (on this front, I wonder if he could somehow have stayed on the highway until the police were able to find him, he already demonstrated that he was willing to hit bikes to escape, so I wouldn’t think they would have much chance of stopping him) ---
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2013, 7:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nyc-biker-gang-beat-down/670236/60 "2013-10-04T07:02:50Z")
> [@Lord\_Feldon](#): > > Self-defense is to stop future harm, though, and that’s always going to be unquantifiable. At least at the end, knives were being used. Once people are attacking you with knives, the reasonable range of outcomes absolutely includes death. Absolutely not disputing, and when attacked with knives, using a gun really is a proportional and justified response. It’s very easy to say after the fact, when it turns out that the driver is “ok”, that a gun wasn’t needed. So it’s “Monday Morning Quarterbacking” in that regard. This. to me, just exemplifies why guns should be LESS of a factor. Because the less guns there are, the less chances you have for an already bad situation to be further escalated. Not to mention the brave folk that helped to defend the driver - what if they too had been armed? Then what do you have? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nyc-biker-gang-beat-down/670236.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nyc-biker-gang-beat-down/670236.md?page=4)