# The NYC biker gang beat down **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [October 3, 2013, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nyc-biker-gang-beat-down/670236 "2013-10-03T01:14:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2013, 7:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nyc-biker-gang-beat-down/670236/61 "2013-10-04T07:06:04Z")
> [@Uber\_the\_Goober](#): > > Gun, in the car, and shooting every one of those stupid assholes who decides to try and break into my car for a sense of misplaced vengeance. > > Car \> Motorcycle. Get over it. Which works really well - until you have 30 people shooting back at you ---
**Author:** ![Uber\_the\_Goober](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/58956e/32.png) [@Uber\_the\_Goober](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uber_the_Goober)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2013, 12:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nyc-biker-gang-beat-down/670236/62 "2013-10-04T12:00:53Z")
> [@bengangmo](#): > > I can’t really argue with the emotions, or say that it wouldn’t be “justified” or that the bikers didn’t deserve it. > > But to me, this has always been the flaw in “defensive gun use”. > > Even though they were being intimidating, and called it upon themselves, I can’t really say that four dead would be a better outcome than the driver having been beaten up, but not “seriously” injured. > > And that’s before, as mentioned up-thread, you even start thinking about any of the bikers also being armed. If the driver is carrying a gun, and uses it, what makes you think that several of the bikers weren’t also carrying? And one thing for sure - an SUV makes a far easier target to hit than a biker. > > Fine, if the driver happens to be the only one with a gun, he “wins” (if you call killing four people a win). however, in gun thread after gun thread you see advocates calling for all citizens to be armed - all I can see happening in a situation like this if more people were armed, is a far greater level of carnage. Yeah, you’re right. It was more of an emotional reaction, trying to understand the fear and panic this guy must have been in. I still don’t know that I would have made a better choice than that…perhaps I’ll have to think ahead for the possibility and try to prepare myself. I have a baby girl and while this is incredibly unlikely, it’s becoming more common than it should (street violence/road rage - not this specifically) ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2013, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nyc-biker-gang-beat-down/670236/63 "2013-10-04T13:21:51Z")
I bet that injured biker will sue the the SUV driver. It’ll drag on in court for years. I don’t think the injured motorcycle guy can win, but it will be expensive defending against this lawsuit. That poor guy and his family. Just going out for a Sunday drive on his wedding anniversary. I can’t imagine encountering a huge pack of motorcycles like that. ---
**Author:** ![Furious\_Marmot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/dfb087/32.png) [@Furious\_Marmot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Furious_Marmot)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2013, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nyc-biker-gang-beat-down/670236/64 "2013-10-04T13:38:52Z")
Is there any independent verification of the claim that the driver knocked over a parked motorcycle or did anything else that a reasonable person would consider to be provocation? I’m disinclined to take the cyclists at their word, considering the video. ---
**Author:** ![FXMastermind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fxmastermind/32/7289_2.png) [@FXMastermind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FXMastermind)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2013, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nyc-biker-gang-beat-down/670236/65 "2013-10-04T13:54:12Z")
> **[ItemFix - Social Video Factory](https://www.itemfix.com/?r=ll)** > > Social Video Factory Same sort of thing from 2011 ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2013, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nyc-biker-gang-beat-down/670236/66 "2013-10-04T13:58:00Z")
If that fuckwit cyclist tries to sue the driver, I hope the driver counter-sues the whole gang. A little investigative work by NY cops will turn up their identities. Ideally, they could charge every single cyclist there with several major felonies. Throw all their asses in jail to rot. ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2013, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nyc-biker-gang-beat-down/670236/67 "2013-10-04T14:05:14Z")
> [@bengangmo](#): > > Even though they were being intimidating, and called it upon themselves, I can’t really say that four dead would be a better outcome than the driver having been beaten up, but not “seriously” injured. I’d agree with the above if the outcome, in general, would follow a predetermined pattern. But, it doesn’t. The outcome of a confrontation like this is very random due to a dynamic and characteristics of each individual being so unpredictable. Since your statement is somewhat morality-based – i.e. lesser of two evils choice- the way I approach this is that there is a sliding chart of “anything could have happened” and the worst case scenario being driver losing control of the vehicle at high speed and rolling over thus killing everyone in the SUV (I’m sure we’d be having a totally different discussion). From that perspective, I’d say having only one motorcyclist quadriplegic and driver beaten is, actually a very bad outcome; not even close to a balanced outcome. The best outcome, in my opinion, would have been if they never caught up with the SUV and he made few more of the motorcyclist unable to ride the bike again. That would be a timeless lesson for the society at large. ---
**Author:** ![Zebra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/c0e974/32.png) [@Zebra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zebra)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2013, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nyc-biker-gang-beat-down/670236/68 "2013-10-04T14:20:18Z")
> [@bengangmo](#): > > Not exactly sure what the “roll eyes” is for…? There is over an hour of footage from the same camera, showing their actions all over town. Including another time when the swarm was running red lights and a car had tried to turn out and there were several around that car hitting on it because it wouldn’t yield to a bunch of law breakers. Do you think that only one biker has a camera? I bet the inciting incident is on camera as well. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2013, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nyc-biker-gang-beat-down/670236/69 "2013-10-04T15:06:36Z")
I know when you panic you do not follow the best course. In hindsight, here is what I think would be the best course of action: Try to stay on the highway at very moderate speed (like O.J.'s “slow speed chase”) while you phone the police. As long as you are moving in a vehicle a motorcycle is not a threat. They have to get off the motorcycle to harm you (unless firearms are involved in which case you are worse off stopping). Try to not get blocked in traffic. If traffic is blocked ahead, slow down to a crawl. If you finally have to stop then stop way back of the traffic blockage so you have plenty of space in front and behind. If they get off the bikes and start attacking your car then pull forward, pull back, start thrashing around front, back, sideways, without regard to hitting other cars. Damage to cars can be paid later, your life is precious. Attackers on foot are very vulnerable, specially if caught between cars. If need be ram the car in front or behind to make space. Just don’t be a sitting duck. Since I saw the tip against carjackings years ago on TV I always try to leave plenty of space between my car and the car in front when stopped at a light. It gives you space to move and someone on foot is no match. Even if you damage some cars someone on foot doesn’t stand a chance. ---
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2013, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nyc-biker-gang-beat-down/670236/70 "2013-10-04T15:19:25Z")
> [@Lukeinva](#): > > Seems to me that each one of those bikers will eventually do something stupid that will cost them physically or mortally…karma tends to happen. The man who was run over will probably be paralyzed. Haven’t read the entire thread yet, but has anyone else noticed that most, if not all, of the bikers in this gang appeared to be black and/or Hispanic? (Many of them wore short-sleeved shirts.) I wonder if the police are refusing to intervene, if this is the case, because they’re afraid of these people screaming “racism”. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2013, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nyc-biker-gang-beat-down/670236/71 "2013-10-04T15:21:44Z")
> [@Uber\_the\_Goober](#): > > Honestly, in that position, I can’t imagine any other response. Maybe hindsight shows it differently, but in the moment, an overwhelming show of force would be the only defense left. Instinct and fear would take over, and people would be dropping like flies. Nobody there was in a clear state of mind, and nobody can say that they would have acted in a different way if they were in the same emotional state as the car driver. Maybe they can say they wouldn’t have been so fearful, but that’s a different point. > > Me, if driven to that kind of fear for my life/family’s life, and I had a gun? assuming a 9 round clip, we’d have 4 dead bikers and one more at least injured. Two shots to center mass almost guarantees your continued safety. At least the video would be there to support your self defense claims. Without it, jailtime and murder charges would likely follow. > > But at least your family would be safe. Once the bikers started dropping, I can’t imagine that any more would continue to press on. > > And I don’t even like guns… Oh, sure, and if THEY had guns too? They’d have to use DNA to identify your body because it would be unrecognizable even as human. ---
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2013, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nyc-biker-gang-beat-down/670236/72 "2013-10-04T15:23:41Z")
> [@Hampshire](#): > > I could see it going the other way. These punks were armed with knives already since it was reported they slashed his tire(s). Whose to say one or several of them weren’t already packing guns? > Give them an excuse to use them (crazed guy in the SUV started shooting my friends and I now have the right to defend myself) and we now have widowed single mom. Or more likely, dead mother and child too. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2013, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nyc-biker-gang-beat-down/670236/73 "2013-10-04T15:41:15Z")
It seems to me that, even if the bikers had guns and were shooting, it’s still be more effective for the driver to drive rather than shoot back. I certainly agree that shooting back would be _justified_ there, just not that it would be the most effective option. Driving straight forward (and if there are any of them in front of you, it’s not your fault that they chose to commit suicide) will immediately put the bulk of your vehicle between you and them, with time decrease their accuracy due to increasing the range, and eventually get you out of the situation entirely. Shooting back means either aiming (which means exposing your head) or shooting blind (which will accomplish almost nothing), and interferes with your ability to drive. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2013, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nyc-biker-gang-beat-down/670236/74 "2013-10-04T15:49:18Z")
If the driver was on the phone with 911, I wonder if maybe the dispatcher told them to get off the highway for some reason. ---
**Author:** ![Zebra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/c0e974/32.png) [@Zebra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zebra)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2013, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nyc-biker-gang-beat-down/670236/75 "2013-10-04T19:47:11Z")
> [@nearwildheaven](#): > > The man who was run over will probably be paralyzed. > > Haven’t read the entire thread yet, but has anyone else noticed that most, if not all, of the bikers in this gang appeared to be black and/or Hispanic? (Many of them wore short-sleeved shirts.) I wonder if the police are refusing to intervene, if this is the case, because they’re afraid of these people screaming “racism”. :dubious: Not the NYPD. That’s for sure. ---
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2013, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nyc-biker-gang-beat-down/670236/76 "2013-10-04T23:41:32Z")
CNN is saying right now that an undercover officer was part of the group. This may explain why the police didn’t intervene as many of us think they should have. :dubious: 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Ca3799](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9f8e36/32.png) [@Ca3799](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ca3799)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2013, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nyc-biker-gang-beat-down/670236/77 "2013-10-05T00:18:36Z")
I am withholding opinion about what precipitated this incident. The suggestion the the SUV driver committed some offense prior to the 6 minute video will require some evidence. I uinderstand the biker with the camer has had his video taken by the police. I’m slightly suspicious that video of the rumored initial “knocked over” event wasn’t released. Perhaps it wasn’t filmed. Even if he did knock over a bike as is rumored, it does not give that biker license to “brake check” the SUV. But the bike that “braked checked” the SUV was just wrong. I wrote here about being “brake checked” recently. I was at fault for the initial error, but I, too, had my kid in the car and would have run over the bike if I felt threatened enough. I probably would do the same if I were by myself. Fortunately, my incident involved just one guy and after I drove around him, he started to follow me again, then he then changed his mind. I generally try to be a courteous driver, especially to bikes (motorized or not), but I won’t accept this kind of escalation of hostility following a driving error (in my case, an error with no harm). I will try to avoid escalation at all costs, but if pressed it is safe to assume the bike will be at a disadvantage. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2013, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nyc-biker-gang-beat-down/670236/78 "2013-10-05T00:52:34Z")
> [@bengangmo](#): > > Fine, if the driver happens to be the only one with a gun, he “wins” (if you call killing four people a win). however, in gun thread after gun thread you see advocates calling for all citizens to be armed - all I can see happening in a situation like this if more people were armed, is a far greater level of carnage. or a greater level of civility. ---
**Author:** ![epbrown01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7ba0ec/32.png) [@epbrown01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/epbrown01)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2013, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nyc-biker-gang-beat-down/670236/79 "2013-10-05T01:13:40Z")
> [@Ca3799](#): > > I am withholding opinion about what precipitated this incident. The suggestion the the SUV driver committed some offense prior to the 6 minute video will require some evidence. I uinderstand the biker with the camer has had his video taken by the police. I’m slightly suspicious that video of the rumored initial “knocked over” event wasn’t released. Perhaps it wasn’t filmed. Even if he did knock over a bike as is rumored, it does not give that biker license to “brake check” the SUV. > > But the bike that “braked checked” the SUV was just wrong. Actually, I can buy that it happened and that’s there is no video. If I were trying to get on the highway and a couple of private citizens were blocking the on-ramp, I’d likely honk politely and, when they didn’t move, drive around. And though a rider myself, I can’t say I’d be too worried about damaging a bike whose owner had decided to use it as a sawhorse. I can also buy that no one recorded it, since until it happened, the video would have been of two parked motorcycles. Hardly riveting footage. ---
**Author:** ![Glazer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a88e57/32.png) [@Glazer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Glazer)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2013, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nyc-biker-gang-beat-down/670236/80 "2013-10-05T01:31:30Z")
Why would you drive past a blocked entrance? In this case it was some yahoos trying to hog the road. But it could just as likely be because there was an accident ahead and citizens helping keep it clear for life flight or something. Not that that would excuse the bikers behavior. If someone hits your bike and keeps going just get their tag number. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nyc-biker-gang-beat-down/670236.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-nyc-biker-gang-beat-down/670236.md?page=5)