# The obstructionist-GOP narrative... can we test/prove it? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 31, 2014, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-obstructionist-gop-narrative-can-we-test-prove-it/697071 "2014-08-31T20:15:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Cyros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a698b9/32.png) [@Cyros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cyros)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2014, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-obstructionist-gop-narrative-can-we-test-prove-it/697071/101 "2014-09-02T22:07:01Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > How about: > [“Do you think President Bush intentionally allowed the 9/11 attacks to take place because he wanted the United States to go to war in the Middle East?”](http://www.publicpolicypolling.com/pdf/2009/PPP_Release_National_9231210.pdf) > > Is this specific enough? 25% of Democrats said “Yes”. 27% of “Liberals” say “Yes”. How many millions is that? Well sure, but you have to presume a [27% crazification factor](http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Crazification_factor). 😃 ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2014, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-obstructionist-gop-narrative-can-we-test-prove-it/697071/102 "2014-09-03T12:55:49Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > How about: > [“Do you think President Bush intentionally allowed the 9/11 attacks to take place because he wanted the United States to go to war in the Middle East?”](http://www.publicpolicypolling.com/pdf/2009/PPP_Release_National_9231210.pdf) > > Is this specific enough? 25% of Democrats said “Yes”. 27% of “Liberals” say “Yes”. How many millions is that? I don’t think this survey is terribly valid. 8% thought W was the anti-Christ, 10% thought Obama was. When you tell people to push buttons on their phones to register various opinions, quite a few are going to intentionally pick silly stuff just to mess with the poll. It’s just a step up from Facebook posts that say things “Does Obama Suck Ass? Share to agree, Ignore to disagree.” ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2014, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-obstructionist-gop-narrative-can-we-test-prove-it/697071/103 "2014-09-03T14:46:23Z")
**Terr** , come on, give it a rest. Let’s take stock. One the republican side, we have this: > [@](#): > > BACHMANN: I’ve already voted no on raising the debt ceiling in the past. And unless there are serious cuts, I can’t. On the shutdown: > [@](#): > > “We’re very excited,” said Rep. Michele Bachmann (R-Minn.). “It’s exactly what we wanted, and we got it.” > > “It’s wonderful,” said Rep. John Abney Culberson (R-Tex.), clapping his hands to emphasize the point. “We’re 100 percent united!” > > Bachmann insisted that the GOP would ultimately be rewarded for standing firm. “People will be very grateful,” she said. That’s just the shit that immediately came to mind and which I found in 2 minutes of searching. That’s completely ignoring the birther angle. Or “death panels”. Or the anti-science bullshit (which is less seen as “oh, that crazy nut” and more seen as “if you don’t hold these anti-science beliefs you’re not welcome in this party”). I could probably keep doing this for days, restricting myself solely to the republicans currently in national congress. On the democrat side: …Um… Well, there’s this one guy who apparently ran the asian-american coalition… And this one senator who apparently believes crazy things that nobody else particularly seems to pay any interest to… And polls show that some portion believe in a popular conspiracy theory… Dude, that is _weak_. Come on. The idea that you can draw any sort of equivalency between the insanity on both sides is _asinine_. The fact that you’re struggling so much to come up with anything even close should be your first warning. At what point does cognitive dissonance kick in? At what point do you wonder, “Why isn’t there a liberal equivalent to Ann Coulter?” Give it a rest. There is a clear gap in rationality and sanity between the two parties. There’s no point in continuing debate if you try to paint the two as equal. They’re not. In fact, one example you brought up clearly shows the difference between the two. McKinney said some phenomenally stupid things, wouldn’t let up on them, and promptly lost the very next primary by a 16-point margin. Is anyone surprised that King, Goehmert, and Bachmann are all still in place? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2014, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-obstructionist-gop-narrative-can-we-test-prove-it/697071/104 "2014-09-03T14:49:46Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > One the republican side, we have this: > “BACHMANN: I’ve already voted no on raising the debt ceiling in the past. And unless there are serious cuts, I can’t.” I don’t see any problem with that. I would do the same thing. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2014, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-obstructionist-gop-narrative-can-we-test-prove-it/697071/105 "2014-09-03T14:51:13Z")
_I rest my case_. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2014, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-obstructionist-gop-narrative-can-we-test-prove-it/697071/106 "2014-09-03T14:52:25Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > _I rest my case_. You think this is “crazy”. I think this is a legitimate political/economic opinion. Why is your position more valid than mine? ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2014, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-obstructionist-gop-narrative-can-we-test-prove-it/697071/107 "2014-09-03T15:05:44Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > I don’t see any problem with that. I would do the same thing. This is not a rational position. Either you have a balanced budget, or the debt ceiling must at some point be raised. If you are unwilling or unable to identify actual spending cuts and/or tax increases necessary to balance the budget, then it is a consequence of arithmetic that the debt ceiling must be raised to pay for debts already agreed to. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2014, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-obstructionist-gop-narrative-can-we-test-prove-it/697071/108 "2014-09-03T15:07:20Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > You think this is “crazy”. I think this is a legitimate political/economic opinion. Why is your position more valid than mine? Because the money’s already been spent. Not raising the debt ceiling means not paying our bills. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2014, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-obstructionist-gop-narrative-can-we-test-prove-it/697071/109 "2014-09-03T15:15:30Z")
The debt ceiling is a perfect example of Republican obstructionism and irrational thought among Republicans. Congress passes budgets and/or continuing resolutions authorizing the spending of money. But when the Treasury needs to borrow more to pay these bills that Congress authorized, somehow it’s the president’s fault and he must offer concessions to rein in “his” excess spending or else the government goes into default and the economy is set ablaze. Sure, Democrats have had a few individuals cast protest votes against the debt ceiling, but they have never used it as a political hostage as Republicans had. “Give us what we want or the economy gets it” is more worthy of the Mafia than the US government. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2014, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-obstructionist-gop-narrative-can-we-test-prove-it/697071/110 "2014-09-03T15:18:19Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > This is not a rational position. Either you have a balanced budget, or the debt ceiling must at some point be raised. If you are unwilling or unable to identify actual spending cuts I am willing and able to identify actual spending cuts. Is that a rational position? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2014, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-obstructionist-gop-narrative-can-we-test-prove-it/697071/111 "2014-09-03T15:19:39Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > This is not a rational position. Was Obama irrational when he voted against raising debt limit? Or “crazy”? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2014, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-obstructionist-gop-narrative-can-we-test-prove-it/697071/112 "2014-09-03T15:21:29Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Was Obama irrational when he voted against raising debt limit? Or “crazy”? It was stupid and irrational. It was a stupid political vote, which he’s since acknowledged was stupid and irrational. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2014, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-obstructionist-gop-narrative-can-we-test-prove-it/697071/113 "2014-09-03T15:23:22Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > I am willing and able to identify actual spending cuts. Is that a rational position? Sufficient to balance the budget? Care to spell out what they are? > [@](#): > > Was Obama irrational when he voted against raising debt limit? Or “crazy”? He cast an ill-advised protest vote. But there was no attempt by Democrats to use the debt ceiling as a hostage. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2014, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-obstructionist-gop-narrative-can-we-test-prove-it/697071/114 "2014-09-03T15:25:15Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > It was stupid and irrational. It was a stupid political vote, which he’s since acknowledged was stupid and irrational. Cite for him acknowledging that his vote was “stupid and irrational”? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2014, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-obstructionist-gop-narrative-can-we-test-prove-it/697071/115 "2014-09-03T15:26:46Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > The debt ceiling is a perfect example of Republican obstructionism and irrational thought among Republicans. Congress passes budgets and/or continuing resolutions authorizing the spending of money. But when the Treasury needs to borrow more to pay these bills that Congress authorized, somehow it’s the president’s fault and he must offer concessions to rein in “his” excess spending or else the government goes into default and the economy is set ablaze. Sure, Democrats have had a few individuals cast protest votes against the debt ceiling, but they have never used it as a political hostage as Republicans had. “Give us what we want or the economy gets it” is more worthy of the Mafia than the US government. Every time this sentiment is posted I get hives, because I am forced to agree with the poster and the post, and this is usually posted by posters with whom I seldom agree. But it’s essentially correct: a principled position would be to shut down the government by not agreeing to a spending bill. If the bill has been passed, without or without your agreement, you should not hold payments that you (collectively) have already approved hostage. I think **BobLibDem** is too kind in waving away the “protest vote,” because I’d argue it’s fair to impute agreement with a “yes” vote and disagreement with a “no,” vote, but it’s inarguable that the Democrats have not acted in the kind of lock-step that the Republicans did over this issue. In this particular metric, I agree the GOP is more fairly called “obstructionist” than the Republicans. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2014, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-obstructionist-gop-narrative-can-we-test-prove-it/697071/116 "2014-09-03T15:28:05Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Cite for him acknowledging that his vote was “stupid and irrational”? [http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2011/apr/29/barack-obama/obama-regrets-2006-vote-against-raising-debt-limit/](http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2011/apr/29/barack-obama/obama-regrets-2006-vote-against-raising-debt-limit/) > [@](#): > > Stephanopoulos: “You’ve got to extend the debt limit by May. And your job is a lot tougher because of your vote in the Senate against extending the debt limit. When did you realize that vote was a mistake?” > > Obama: “I think that it’s important to understand the vantage point of a senator versus the vantage point of a president. When you’re a senator, traditionally what’s happened is, this is always a lousy vote. Nobody likes to be tagged as having increased the debt limit - for the United States by a trillion dollars. As president, you start realizing, you know what, we, we can’t play around with this stuff. This is the full faith and credit of the United States. And so that was just an example of a new senator making what is a political vote as opposed to doing what was important for the country. And I’m the first one to acknowledge it.” ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2014, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-obstructionist-gop-narrative-can-we-test-prove-it/697071/117 "2014-09-03T15:31:52Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > But it’s essentially correct: a principled position would be to shut down the government by not agreeing to a spending bill. If the bill has been passed, without or without your agreement, you should not hold payments that you (collectively) have already approved hostage. And I have to agree with this sentiment. If Republicans want to refuse to pass a spending bill or continuing resolution, that’s the place to have that fight. It would not impact the faith and credit of the US, though it might well play havoc with the economy. But if they want to take that political risk, they can have a go at it. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2014, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-obstructionist-gop-narrative-can-we-test-prove-it/697071/118 "2014-09-03T15:32:56Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Cite for him acknowledging that his vote was “stupid and irrational”? He [regrets](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/04/11/obama-debt-ceiling-vote_n_847627.html) it. I don’t know if he’s used the term “stupid and irrational”, I deeply apologize if I led you to believe that I was claiming he did, rather than extrapolating from his “regret”. I’m really, really sorry for this – just to stave off further discussion. I’m terribly sorry. I really hope I didn’t hurt you, **Terr**. You know how much I value our intimate relationship. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2014, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-obstructionist-gop-narrative-can-we-test-prove-it/697071/119 "2014-09-03T15:34:47Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Sufficient to balance the budget? Care to spell out what they are? Sure. Eliminate Dept. of Education, Department of Agriculture, Department of Energy, Department of Health and Human Services, cut Department of Homeland Security 80%, eliminate Department of Housing and Urban Development, Department of Labor. Cut DOD budget another 20%. That will get us about 90% towards eliminating the deficit. Eliminate some more inefficiencies, and fraud (like enormous Medicare fraud) and we’re at 100%. > [@](#): > > He cast an ill-advised protest vote. But there was no attempt by Democrats to use the debt ceiling as a hostage. So he voted against it but he didn’t really mean it? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2014, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-obstructionist-gop-narrative-can-we-test-prove-it/697071/120 "2014-09-03T15:35:50Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > He [regrets](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/04/11/obama-debt-ceiling-vote_n_847627.html) it. Of course he “regrets” it. It is very inconvenient for him to have cast that vote. Thus the regret. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-obstructionist-gop-narrative-can-we-test-prove-it/697071.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-obstructionist-gop-narrative-can-we-test-prove-it/697071.md?page=7)