The Occupy Movement - could someone explain?

You think the Vietnam War went on for 17 years?

What dates do you use for the Vietnam War?

Are you arguing that it started in 1958?

I ask because it definitely ended in 1975(when Saigon fell) and most people date it as being from 1965(when the US sent in an army)-1975 or sometimes 1965-1972(when most US troops withdrew).

Obviously there were US advisors under Eisenhower and Kennedy but under Eisenhower they were just a few hundred and under Kennedy they were only a few thousand.

Virtually every informed commentator thinks of Vietnam as Johnson’s War and I see little reason to disagree with the idea that Johnson started the Vietnam War?

So why do you claim it lasted 17 years?

It’s also been called “The 10,000 Day War”. Run that math and see what you get.

Well, I’ve decided to call it the 25,000 day war, so I guess it ran for sixty-eight years.

Going back to the beginning, it is debatable how much effect the student and street protests had on the course of the war, but there’s no question that the continuing effort changed public opinion and likely got us out of Vietnam earlier and with less cost in casualties than otherwise. I forget the numbers but public support for the war was huge (75% or more?) until around 1969, and declined to miniscule numbers (15%?) by 1972-3. All of us from that era have stories of rock-ribbed patriot parents and family who changed their opinion - and those dirty hippies yelling in the streets were what did it.

Because they had leaders. Because they had clearly stated goals. Because they stuck with it even when they were being beaten into disability or murdered. Not for a comfy summer, but for years and years, against parental and much of society’s wrath and dismissal.

The Occupoopers had their chance - the best chance in a generation - and they failed, not just abysmally but willfully.

I’m not an Occupy person, and I’m fairly moderate, but here’s my perceptions of the Occupy thing, both from here, the news media and other places like Reddit, etc…

  1. The message seemed diluted and unfocused. Was it a call for corporate America to reinvest more profit in their workers and communities? Was it a call for the government to enact/enforce legislation to prevent corporate abuses of workers? Was it a call for fairer wages and labor practices? Was it simple hatred of the 1%? Was it about student loan forgiveness? Was it about bank reform? Was it about anti-capitalism? Was it anti-consumerist? Was it something else? Nobody really seemed/seems to know.

  2. The protestors seemed to be a mix of people who were/are:
    [ul]
    [li]Former liberal arts majors angry because their degrees didn’t translate into anything useful and saddled them with debt.[/li][li]Various crunchy hippie types with hacky-sacks and dreads[/li][li]Angry super-liberal types[/li][li]Every homeless person for miles.[/li][/ul]

  3. What it wasn’t:
    [ul]
    [li]Former business, engineering or science majors for the most part.[/li][li]Working class people with families and bills.[/li][li]Middle class people being squeezed from both sides.[/li][/ul]

  4. The perception is that basically it was anger at the rich (the 1%)… for being rich. It wasn’t necessarily anger at the government for letting them get that way, and nor was it necessarily anger at the policies that let them keep a greater amount of the wealth in the country.

  5. By framing the debate as the 99% vs the 1%, Occupy presumed to speak for everyone outside of their movement. Not everyone outside of the 1% of the wealthiest people agreed with them on everything or indeed anything. IMO this is the biggest mistake they made. It was probably more like the 15% vs. the 1%, with the other 84% kind of indifferent.

  6. The issues with sanitation, drugs, crime and general unruliness and interference with daily life didn’t go over well with the other 85%- in my experience, people are willing to let people protest in the park or square all they want, right up until they’re taking dumps behind the bushes, tearing up the parks and costing the city a lot of money in police presence.

snip

Nice generalization there Shodan. Since I’m employed, I guess I shouldn’t have gone to any of the protests, eh?

Had no plans to be a lifer, went because I wanted to make a statement about (as noted) the crazy income disparity in this country and the need for more involvement in community by everyone.

As for successes, I would say the protests were able to interject into the public conscience and national conversation a lot of topics many people never really bothered to contemplate.

Like corporate money in politics, predatory business practices, the aforementioned wealth consolidation issue, caring for the vulnerable in society… and pepper spraying :smiley:

These issues were a major stumbling block in the last presidential election for Romney because apathy was replaced by people asking questions about them.

Fair share tax issue? Bit him in the ass with the offshoring. Social safety net? Ouch. Other cheek. His time in Bain Equity ? Starting to look a little like hamburger back there.

Was the public unified in their perceptions on these topics?

Hell, Occupy participants weren’t, but these were topics that needed to be examined and discussed instead of pre-emptorily dismissing it as “someone else’s problem”, to try and figure out just what kind of nation we wanted to be.

Regarding,
Sylmar

I feel like this question/rant dropped in through a time hole from two years ago.

If you spend any time around left-of-the-Democrats political groups at all, you’ll find a lack of focus to be endemic among them. Everybody has their own idea of what the “real” problem is and no one is crazy about following leaders. Most meetings I ever went to of such groups ended up looking like the conversation with Loretta in Life of Brian, so I wasn’t too shocked to see the Occupy protests go that way.

I do think it helped to boost the meme of “the 99%”, because I think a lot of people underestimate the unequal distribution of wealth and income in the US. That’s not much, but it’s not nothing, either.

So where do you date the start of the Vietnam War and why.

Former Presidential candidate Wesley Clarke said that LBJ started the Vietnam War.

Presumably you disagree with him.

Would you explain why General Clark was wrong?

Thanks.

So then you think people who call it Lyndon Johnson’s war are wrong.

Please explain your reasoning in your own words.

Thanks.

Whence this notion that the Occupy movement fizzled out as soon as the weather got cold? I know for a fact that the Occupiers in Bozeman were still sticking it out in the middle of a Montana winter. I suspect that it’s just a matter that that’s the story the media wanted to tell, and so they told it.

Yes, they did eventually fizzle out, but it wasn’t due to the weather.

The camps got smaller when the cold weather arrived, but no, they didn’t disappear.

And… so what? It’s not like they were accomplishing anything, sun rain or shine. Must have been a bitch to make hand signals with mittens on, though.

I heard there were a lot of homeless. Any particular reason the homeless were attracted to the Occupy movement?

What were conditions like in them?

Wesley Clark and Gato.

In retrospect, the above questions came across as vastly snarkier than intended instead of being tongue-in-cheek.

Apologies and feel free to ignore them if you want

Also it’s off-topic to the thread. Again apologies.

I just read through all twenty-five posts, and not a single Occupier has responded. I suppose it’s up to me. Perhaps I am the only one here who can speak from experience.

I was involved consistently with Occupy in my city from the first week until its dissolution. I didn’t sleep there, but I was on-site for several days out of each week. I participated in many of the related demonstrations, as well as committee meetings and so on.

For me, the most salient point of reference for Occupy was not anything related to the 1960s. I thought that we were seeing a resurgence of what the media had ignorantly called “anti-globalization” activity in the 90s-00s. It made sense to me, since the animating issues were basically the same: Since around 1980, a neoliberal consensus has ruled our politics, and thus has ruled our economy. Welfare for the rich (subsidies, bailouts and all the rest) has risen dramatically, while the rest of the population is subject to free-market discipline, as the social safety net is shredded, and all the rungs on the ladder to the middle class (affordable/accessible education, job safety, environmental protection, civil rights and civil liberties, etc.) are sawed away. The rich want us to pay for the crisis they caused.

The original call to action, written by Kalle Lasn of Adbusters, seemed to suggest that the movement should occupy public space all around the country, and grow until it became a danger to the legitimacy and authority of the neoliberal state, and the corporations, banks, and whatever else that collude with the state. The only way to achieve success would be through prefigurative politics, i.e. living out our values, and embodying the changes we wanted to see in our country and in the world. This was all occurring at a time when much of the world seemed to be in revolt against neoliberalism. In the recent past, Latin America had shown the way forward. Social movements (workers, peasants, feminist, students, LGBTQ, ethnic, etc.) had seized enough power to make some organic societal change from below, and also had managed to swing some elections and/or topple neoliberal regimes outside of the ballot box. Neoliberalism is so toxic and backward that even relatively moderate deviations from it can greatly reduce poverty and inequality, a la Brazil and several other places. In 2011, these struggles had erupted full-scale in the Arab world, and a great resurgence had appeared in Europe as well. Kalle Lasn and others thought that it would be time for a North American Autumn, and lots of us agreed.

Those early days of Occupy were thoroughly inspiring, and I feel happy now as I think and write about them. After perhaps ten days, the crowds at the General Assemblies had swelled to the hundreds, particularly in the early evenings as people left work. The turnout was fairly diverse in age, ethnicity, and so on, quite unlike the stereotypes I see written above. Even then, there was a self-consciousness about how to “broaden the tent,” so to speak. Committees were formed to deal with actions, media relations, food, health, and so much else. There was a welcome tent, a medical tent, a media tent complete with solar panels and computers, and so on. There was an emphasis on not excluding anyone due to any of the structural violence found in broader society: racism, sexism, heterosexism/homophobia, classism, transphobia, ableism, etc. All things considered, it was pretty awesome.

I remember explaining to some new activists that the consensus-based decision-making process seemed unwieldy, but it was perhaps the best way to avoid mirroring society’s hierarchies, and besides, it had been used in combat before, and that was not why the anarchists in the Spanish and Russian civil wars were defeated. I remember explaining to someone what “solidarity” meant. I remember forging personal ties with activists from around the city, around the country, and around the world. I remember talking at length to curious passers-by, whether locals or tourists, and explaining what it was all about.

end of Part 1

Unfortunately, none of that happened, and therefore, you achieved nothing.

Turns out he was wrong.

Regards,
Shodan

Part 2

So what happened? I’ll let Cindy Milstein explain it. She’s referring to Philadelphia, but the same holds true for my city, and presumably many others:

"First, self-organization really does work, as do all our other principles. The random Occupiers flung together without a road map or boss didn’t just stand around looking confused, or tear each other apart (at least initially). They passionately threw themselves headfirst into doing what they love, teaching each other new skills, lending a hand, sharing materials and ideas, trying to protect and care for each other, figuring out how to deal with those tasks none of us really want to do (like, in the case of Occupy Philly, when one of our most considerate general assemblies centered on how to keep the portable toilets clean), and so much more, as other global revolts of late have demonstrated as well.

Second, self-organization ultimately didn’t work, and everything we ever thought we knew about ethical social transformation needs to be thoroughly rethought. In our excitement at the outset, at least within Occupy Philly, we misjudged many things, such as the depth of personal and societal damage, and how long it will take to work through—certainly far longer than our occupation—or more to the point, what it will take to undo. We contributed, more than we should have, to letting power dynamics and troublesome individuals spiral increasingly out of anyone’s control—partly a result of the genuine dilemma of how, without relying on domination, to ensure and especially “enforce” accountability as well as create safer spaces and consensual boundaries. We didn’t have the patience to retool, perhaps time and again, the directly democratic and autonomous structures that we largely brought to the occupation in the first place, even though it soon became apparent that they didn’t simply scale-up from, for instance, an anarchist infoshop to daily life within a heterogeneous community with many pressing needs.

To be fair, we also just didn’t have time for such reevaluation, much less continually inventing new practices to test out with others. We were all trying to do everything at once, from scratch, without sleep. And more important, there was still the snarling “outside world” barking at our heels, from the many historical and contemporary wrongs in our midst like homelessness and racism to the beat cops stationed on our plaza, from a “good” mayor playing us off against each other to the barrage of bad press, from Homeland Security to capitalism, just to mention a few."

On the upside, we Occupiers (together with many allies) organized many great demonstrations, attracting a considerable amount of public attention towards the issues at hand, as others have noted above. I remember being cheered on by the women inside the student loan HQ place as we blockaded the doors and relentlessly verbally needled the security personnel. I remember the night after OWS was raided and disrupted, we marched in solidarity and anger through the downtown area. I looked up through the urban canyons and saw one office cubicle lit up brightly, with the fellow inside taking a break from working late in order to wave his arms enthusiastically as he cheered for us. We clashed with GOP, Dems, lobbyists, Americans For Prosperity (Koch project), security guards, and (always) police. We printed and distributed newspapers. We found friends and allies who donated food and supplies. We forged friendships and partnerships that endure in activism and organizing, as well as in the human contact we all crave.

On the downside, for the reasons Milstein mentions among others, the ratio of awesome people to miscreants, police provocateurs, petty criminals, crackpots, antisocial louts, and the mentally ill swung decisively in favor of the latter elements. Occupying became an end in itself, and much of our energy was devoted towards attempting to keep the campsites functioning and mollify our neighbors. I was also perpetually disappointed and embarrassed in the real lack of political savvy in many of my comrades. They often had firsthand knowledge that many things were wrong with our world, but a lack of ability to articulate this to the outside world in any way that would enhance our cause; or worse, they just didn’t care. This played right into the hands of our opponents.

In most countries, people organize first, then use occupying as a tactic. Students occupy universities, landless peasants occupy estates, workers occupy factories, and so on. This sometimes happens in the US, but Occupy occupied first, then tried to organize. This also stands in stark contrast to the movements that came before: alter-globalization, race/women’s/anti-war/labor etc. The upshot of all of this is that our positioned weakened to such an extent that Occupy sites around the country were dispersed via police violence. We did not collapse or surrender the field on our own, that was accomplished with the repressive power of the state.

Since the disruption of the Occupy camps, Occupiers have gone back to other (related) activist projects that they often had already been engaged in pre-Occupy. For the newcomers, Occupy served as an introduction. Occupy’s legacy has been preserved in this city in a couple of stage plays, an art exhibit, and the videos, pictures, and stories of those who were there.

We’re still here, and so are the issues.

I think you summed up the issue quite admirably. Everything about Occupy worked great, except that it didn’t.

Regards,
Shodan

There’s a lot more detail and nuance to Milstein’s account than that.

Which affects the bottom line hardly at all. Occupy had no idea what it wanted to accomplish, and all the vague rhetoric in the world doesn’t cover that up.

Regards,
Shodan

Here’s my story. I went to an Occupy rally here in my town. This was as they were peaking, last October (or was it the Oct. before, I’m getting old and it’s all blurring together.) Anyway… it was a pretty good turnout for such a conservative dominated town. Lots of labor union types spoke that day but also lots of educated people with tons of student debt that were having trouble finding jobs that paid a decent wage and people that were laid off from long held, well paying jobs and having a hard time keeping things together on unemployment or lower paying jobs. The focus was on the Wall Street bailouts and the 1% that were seeing massive income gains while the rest fell behind their previous lifestyle. We all got excited and marched through downtown, shouting slogans and making an impact. Lots of positive response from people driving by. It was great!

Then everything got kind of hazy for me. I didn’t understand the need to have a few people “occupy” the park downtown. It just gave the Tea Party types a target to hammer, “dirty hippies taking over a city park so we can’t take our kids there.” The longer it went on, the more the average person around here lost whatever positive feeling they may have had about Occupy.
I thought having a good rally every few months would have been much more effective around here than the tiny little tent city that just pissed people off.