# The Office 12/3 **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [December 4, 2009, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-office-12-3/519982 "2009-12-04T15:08:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2009, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-office-12-3/519982/61 "2009-12-05T22:34:16Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > You watch and you enjoy the show and you want it of the air because it might get bad at some point and some how this might retroactively lessen the enjoyment you got from watching it? Alrighty then… If only there was a way to prevent that from happening. What are the options? Well, one could cancel the show, I guess. What’s the other option? Hmm…I think it involves a remote control. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![MyFootsZZZ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/myfootszzz/32/12580_2.png) [@MyFootsZZZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MyFootsZZZ)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2009, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-office-12-3/519982/62 "2009-12-05T22:34:33Z")
> [@Red\_Barchetta](#): > > I still watch the show and enjoy it compared to most others, and still want it off the air. My point is that the show’s integrity drops with almost every new episode. I’d rather it have ended with a bang than a whimper. Why do you think Fawlty Towers is still so cherished after all these years? what I was going to say. ---
**Author:** ![MyFootsZZZ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/myfootszzz/32/12580_2.png) [@MyFootsZZZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MyFootsZZZ)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2009, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-office-12-3/519982/63 "2009-12-05T23:10:24Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > Yeah, that’s probably one reason. > > But it demonstrates another deficiency with the American television model: the need to suck every last drop of ratings out of a show, rather than let it wind down _before_ it starts to suck. Absolutely. There’s more of a mean streak to David, and his sheer self-absorption is not mediated as much by a generous and good-hearted disposition as Michael’s is. But again, for me, that is part of what makes the British version a better TV show, because they were willing to make the main character not only embarrassing, but actually unlikeable. It meant that they weren’t always struggling, like the American version does, with the problem of having a guy who is a self-absorbed asshole, but who also needs to be congenial enough for the audience to like him. > > In the British office, David Brent often gets what’s coming to him when he acts like a jackass; in the American version, the writers usually contrive to have Michael come out of his ridiculous situations smelling of roses after a brief period of embarrassment, and it inconsistency is grating as hell. I agree. I even do feel a little sympathy for David. In a perfect world, The Office would be on for a long time, and forever be good. Part of what I miss from the UK version that I only get a \*taste \*of in the US Office is how the leads had \*\*SUCH \*\*bigger dreams for themselves. They both have dilutions of grandeur. Michael’s, however, too aloof to realize that ship’s most likely sailed, (last night he didn’t count out the possibility of being a millionaire in the next ten years); Brent seems to be deeply disappointed, offering his “showmanship skills” in a panicked way to show people he, _in his mind_, should have had a chance a stardom. I would be curious to see where the UK version would go if it were forced to be ‘milked’. I wonder just how long Brent would be bearable compared to Michael. ---
**Author:** ![Red\_Barchetta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/da6949/32.png) [@Red\_Barchetta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Red_Barchetta)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2009, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-office-12-3/519982/64 "2009-12-06T00:53:07Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > You watch and you enjoy the show and you want it of the air because it might get bad at some point and some how this might retroactively lessen the enjoyment you got from watching it? Alrighty then… It kind of does retroactively ruin the show. The more recent episodes are making the characters increasingly shallow and unlikeable, which does to some degree affect ones (at least mine) perception of them in hindsight, even if you’re consiously aware that the developments since weren’t eveb conceieved at that point of time. All I’m saying is I don’t enjoy The Office enough, as is, to miss it were it to be cancelled today. And in fact, I’d propose that the sooner it’s cancelled, the better the show will stand the test of time. Again, I cite Fawlty Towers–a show with a mere 12 episodes and is considered by many to be one of the best ever made. Even the UK version of The Office knew when to call it quits. Furthermore, the show would actually be able to wrap-up whatever open plot-threads it has were the writers aware that it was going to end, resulting in a complete story-arc before it can be further eroded. ---
**Author:** ![BrandonR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/779978/32.png) [@BrandonR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrandonR)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2009, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-office-12-3/519982/65 "2009-12-06T06:06:08Z")
I agree with the general consensus that this episode was crap. It seems like lately, the show has turned into a sitcom rather than a mockumentary with its ridiculously long buildups to obvious jokes, and everyone being caricatures. I’m still trying to figure out why Jim couldn’t obviously see it was Dwight’s doing since he’s the one who gave the performance rankings. Meh. I hate to say it but this show has really gone downhill since the wedding… ---
**Author:** ![tesseract](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bb73d2/32.png) [@tesseract](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tesseract)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2009, 11:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-office-12-3/519982/66 "2009-12-06T11:42:41Z")
[QUOTE=mhendo] But again, for me, that is part of what makes the British version a better TV show, because they were willing to make the main character not only embarrassing, but actually unlikeable. It meant that they weren’t always struggling, like the American version does, with the problem of having a guy who is a self-absorbed asshole, but who also needs to be congenial enough for the audience to like him. [/QUOTE] Maybe “better” as in “purer,” but for me, a lot less enjoyable. I know it’s a struggle sometimes with the Michael contradictions, but I’d take Michael Scott on my show anyday. I hate it when I can’t find any kind of common ground/love for a lead. And isn’t that more realistic, anyway? Haven’t we all had a self-absorbed asshole in our life that we loved nonetheless? While we’re comparing the two, the UK Jim is not very cute. OK, I’m shallow. Even a bad Office episode is better than most of TV, IMO, so I guess I should stop bitching. I just wish it would leave us wanting more. Aside – didn’t the Calvin & Hobbes guy just abruptly stop writing it when he was basically on top? ---
**Author:** ![Joey\_P](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/919ad9/32.png) [@Joey\_P](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joey_P)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2009, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-office-12-3/519982/67 "2009-12-06T13:23:20Z")
> [@BrandonR](#): > > I’m still trying to figure out why Jim couldn’t obviously see it was Dwight’s doing since he’s the one who gave the performance rankings. That’s why I’m wondering if he’s messing with Dwight. Either that or he knows he got set up but he’s not a good enough manager to call Dwight on it. I mean, even if he didn’t catch it right away, it should have been pretty obvious when the cake showed up that he didn’t order. I’m still working on the assumption that he knows what’s going on, right down to the bug in his office. I still that that conversation with David was kind of odd…or staged. ---
**Author:** ![MyFootsZZZ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/myfootszzz/32/12580_2.png) [@MyFootsZZZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MyFootsZZZ)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2009, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-office-12-3/519982/68 "2009-12-06T13:28:58Z")
I would rather the show end before I decide it’s too shallow to watch. I would prefer it most if it got as good as it used to be again, mostly because it money’s fault, (really, who else but the network could you blame? Even if the writers did want it to end, they have to deal with the peacock), that it will continue to go on and on. \*_Red Barchetta’s right, I don’t want this to be another The X-Files. Never saw_ Fawlty Towers _, but I have seen_ Arrested Development _and Firefly and_ The Office \*[UK]. ---
**Author:** ![AuntiePam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@AuntiePam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AuntiePam)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2009, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-office-12-3/519982/69 "2009-12-06T15:43:34Z")
> [@Joey\_P](#): > > I mean, even if he didn’t catch it right away, it should have been pretty obvious when the cake showed up that he didn’t order. The cake was Dwight’s big mistake. If not for the cake, Jim might convince himself the whole thing was a fluke. Jim wasn’t given time to think about it – it all happened at once, very fast. And everyone was yelling at him. By the time he and Pam are in the elevator, he’ll know who was responsible and he’ll be thinking about what to do about it. ---
**Author:** ![VoluntaryPlan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/9fc29f/32.png) [@VoluntaryPlan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VoluntaryPlan)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2009, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-office-12-3/519982/70 "2009-12-06T15:46:50Z")
I feel like the quality of this episode is going to depend wholly on what they do with the set-up. They basically sacrificed an episode to set up a new story arc, so that arc better be good. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2009, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-office-12-3/519982/71 "2009-12-06T15:56:19Z")
Pam: i even doubled my sales this month! Andy: what, from 2 to 4? Pam in the confessional: Yuuuup Creed: I bet Pam is not even pregnant! Dwights Diabolical Plan, Dwight imitating Kevin, Stanley and specially Toby. Michaels Elvis, Erin humming the “make dreams come true” song. Etc, etc, etc. This episode was funny as hell, therefore it was a good episode in my book. The plot is just there to facilitate the jokes, when the jokes stop being funny thats when i’ll quit watching. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2009, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-office-12-3/519982/72 "2009-12-06T16:25:44Z")
> [@Joey\_P](#): > > That’s why I’m wondering if he’s messing with Dwight. Either that or he knows he got set up but he’s not a good enough manager to call Dwight on it. > > I mean, even if he didn’t catch it right away, it should have been pretty obvious when the cake showed up that he didn’t order. > I’m still working on the assumption that he knows what’s going on, right down to the bug in his office. I still that that conversation with David was kind of odd…or staged. Quite frankly, as a new manager, Jim probably has a lot more on his mind than whether Dwight is setting him up for some elaborate scheme to get him fired. What is so odd about Jim having dinner with Wallace? It’s clear they have a long-standing professional relationship going back to at least Season 4. Wallace clearly views Jim as a rising star in the company (presumably it doesn’t go out of business). It’s perfectly reasonable that they might develop a quasi-social relationship. ---
**Author:** ![Joey\_P](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/919ad9/32.png) [@Joey\_P](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joey_P)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2009, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-office-12-3/519982/73 "2009-12-06T17:06:25Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > What is so odd about Jim having dinner with Wallace? It’s clear they have a long-standing professional relationship going back to at least Season 4. Wallace clearly views Jim as a rising star in the company (presumably it doesn’t go out of business). It’s perfectly reasonable that they might develop a quasi-social relationship. It was just odd the way it went from “You’re in a lot of trouble Mister” directly to “So, are we still on for dinner” add to that Dwight’s reaction and I have to wonder if Jim is setting Dwight up, as if maybe he had already explained the situation to David and then had this conversation knowing that Dwight had bugged the office. I just hope they continue this and it is a set up for something rather then a one episode thing. ---
**Author:** ![BrandonR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/779978/32.png) [@BrandonR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrandonR)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2009, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-office-12-3/519982/74 "2009-12-06T17:56:30Z")
I’m not sure I’m liking the whole Dwight trying to get Jim fired angle. Dwight worked as a strange, awkward (yet harmless) coworker, but I’m not convinced he works as a nefarious guy who goes through such an elaborate setup to get his manager fired. It really makes his character less likable. And how he can go from being convinced his future self was contacting him via fax from early in the series to scheming complex situations to get Jim fired seems pretty strange to me. ---
**Author:** ![Tanbarkie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a698b9/32.png) [@Tanbarkie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tanbarkie)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2009, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-office-12-3/519982/75 "2009-12-06T20:35:49Z")
> [@BrandonR](#): > > I’m not sure I’m liking the whole Dwight trying to get Jim fired angle. Dwight worked as a strange, awkward (yet harmless) coworker, but I’m not convinced he works as a nefarious guy who goes through such an elaborate setup to get his manager fired. It really makes his character less likable. And how he can go from being convinced his future self was contacting him via fax from early in the series to scheming complex situations to get Jim fired seems pretty strange to me. It’s not just that it makes Dwight unlikeable, but that it makes him utterly unbelievable as a character given the supposedly documentary nature of the show. It’s something that’s been bugging me more and more over time - the cognitive dissonance between “this is a wacky situation comedy” and “this is supposed to be a (funny) documentary.” The show used to do a reasonably good job of keeping things in check, so that you could laugh without being pulled out of the suspension of disbelief mode, but lately it’s like they really wish they were “Two and a Half Men,” but haven’t been able to ditch the talking heads and single-camera format yet. So we end up with scenes like Ryan pulling out Dwight’s diabolical plan (with the wannabe “Simpsons”-esque joke of having the plan actually say “DIABOLICAL PLAN” on it - Ho ho ho, hilaaaaaaarious!!!) perfectly in view of the camera. Or Dwight’s “MY IDEA” reaction shots - what, are we supposed to believe that Dwight sat there in front of the camera repeating “My idea” over and over again so the editing crew could splice them in later? These are jokes that would work okay on any other show, but because “The Office” is supposed to be a documentary, end up just sounding forced, like a puppeteer kicking down the set so you can see him pulling strings. Also, add me to the list of people who hate what they’re doing to Jim. It’s one thing to try to show that being a manager is tough and that Jim isn’t actually that well-suited to the job. It’s another to turn him into a complete idiot who apparently couldn’t figure out that he’d been set up even _after a cake showed up with his face on it that he had never ordered._ I mean, really? _Really?_ As for the A-plot… well, I’m not going to say that Michael’s actions surprised me because frankly they’re well in-character. What failed about this plot was the utter stupidity of everyone else involved, from the students to the teacher. When the plot you come up with demands that every single character act like an idiot in order to make it work, you’ve failed, utterly failed, as a writer. When one person saying, “Hold up, maybe we should do a background check on this guy” would’ve halted your story in its tracks (thus preventing you from making your funny funny jokes), you need to take said story, throw it in the trash, and start the fuck over. ---
**Author:** ![MyFootsZZZ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/myfootszzz/32/12580_2.png) [@MyFootsZZZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MyFootsZZZ)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2009, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-office-12-3/519982/76 "2009-12-06T22:20:01Z")
> [@BrandonR](#): > > I’m not sure I’m liking the whole Dwight trying to get Jim fired angle. Dwight worked as a strange, awkward (yet harmless) coworker, but I’m not convinced he works as a nefarious guy who goes through such an elaborate setup to get his manager fired. It really makes his character less likable. And how he can go from being convinced his future self was contacting him via fax from early in the series to scheming complex situations to get Jim fired seems pretty strange to me. Well, I can see where you find it strange that Dwight could pull off something elaberate like this. But it’s clear Dwight wanted the Job. If it wasn’t for that, I be he would suck up to Jim just as he does Michael. I too prefer authentisity over “funny situational” stuff… but there are people who like it the other way around. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2009, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-office-12-3/519982/77 "2009-12-06T22:35:20Z")
> [@MyFootsZZZ](#): > > Well, I can see where you find it strange that Dwight could pull off something elaberate like this. But it’s clear Dwight wanted the Job. If it wasn’t for that, I be he would suck up to Jim just as he does Michael. Dwight also has a couple years worth of fairly legitimate grievances against Jim even aside from Jim getting the “second in command” job that Dwight always wanted, it doesn’t really seem that strange that he would want revenge. And Dwight has always had plenty of weird schemes and plans, they just always backfire on him, as did this one. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2009, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-office-12-3/519982/78 "2009-12-06T22:40:37Z")
> [@Tanbarkie](#): > > Also, add me to the list of people who hate what they’re doing to Jim. It’s one thing to try to show that being a manager is tough and that Jim isn’t actually that well-suited to the job. It’s another to turn him into a complete idiot who apparently couldn’t figure out that he’d been set up even _after a cake showed up with his face on it that he had never ordered._ I mean, really? _Really?_ I think he knew Dwight ordered the cake, but just figured it was his own fault. After all, he never told Dwight not to put him in the running for the “Best Employee” thing, and he apparently asked Dwight to organize the prizes, so he figured Dwight had seen who would win and went ahead and ordered the cake. Hence Jim thinking it was a “miscommunication”, which it sort of was, he should’ve told Dwight to leave him out of the contest. ---
**Author:** ![MyFootsZZZ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/myfootszzz/32/12580_2.png) [@MyFootsZZZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MyFootsZZZ)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2009, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-office-12-3/519982/79 "2009-12-06T22:42:25Z")
Well, in Dwight’s own words: “_When I was a child, showing weakness was liable to get you a spanking. To avoid that fate, I would demonstrate my resolve by begging my mother to spank me. It was an intricate game of cat and mouse, one that helped me become the cunning and powerful man I am today._” [http://www.thediabolicalblog.com/](http://www.thediabolicalblog.com/) So, that explains where he got the cunning and powerful attributes needed to best Jim, (who’s clearly no Undertaker from the WWE). ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2009, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-office-12-3/519982/80 "2009-12-06T23:04:34Z")
> [@Tanbarkie](#): > > What failed about this plot was the utter stupidity of everyone else involved, from the students to the teacher. When the plot you come up with demands that every single character act like an idiot in order to make it work, you’ve failed, utterly failed, as a writer. When one person saying, “Hold up, maybe we should do a background check on this guy” would’ve halted your story in its tracks (thus preventing you from making your funny funny jokes), you need to take said story, throw it in the trash, and start the fuck over. Doing a background check on Michael wouldn’t have changed the story. He was who he claimed to be, Michael Scott the manager of Dunder-Mifflin Scranton, and he doesn’t have a criminal record. IIRC he never actually declared bankruptcy (he just _said_ it), so that wouldn’t have come up in a background check either. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-office-12-3/519982.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-office-12-3/519982.md?page=5)