# The Official Election Fraud Thread **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 21, 2004, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-official-election-fraud-thread/270450 "2004-10-21T18:17:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![malkavia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malkavia/32/5621_2.png) [@malkavia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/malkavia)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2004, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-official-election-fraud-thread/270450/1 "2004-10-21T18:17:51Z")
I received my absentee ballot yesterday and was actually relieved to see that my guy’s name was, in fact, ON the ballot and that the arrows to the right of each name actually line up. It seems that some of our pals in [Michigan](http://www.independent-media.tv/images/story/michigan_ballot_big.gif) and [Ohio](http://columbusdispatch.com/election/election-president.php?story=dispatch/2004/10/19/20041019-B2-06.html) haven’t been so lucky this year. This morning on the (admittedly liberal) radio I heard that [Philadelphia Republican Ward Leaders were attempting to have 63 polling stations moved](http://www.pagop.org/news.asp?FormMode=Detail&ID=832) across town, slashing voter turnout in predominately urban and historically Democratic areas. So what’s the real dope, folks… Are we seeing election fraud or is this just more spin? Is dipping everyone’s thumb in purple ink becoming a viable alternative to our historical voting process? Have you seen anything that could constitute election fraud in your hometown? ---
**Author:** ![malkavia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malkavia/32/5621_2.png) [@malkavia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/malkavia)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2004, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-official-election-fraud-thread/270450/2 "2004-10-21T18:22:40Z")
Oh! Oh! I forgot to mention Phoenix’s latest election panic; Apparently some absentee ballots are not being delivered due to their weight. It doesn’t state it on the absentee envelope, but apparently the ballot is heavier than one ounce and so folks who use a 37 cent stamp are not affixing adequate postage (it’s actually 60 cents for ballots now) and thus, are having their absentee ballots returned to them. I don’t think I count this as “election fraud”, because I can’t for the life of me figure out who which side it’s supposed to benefit, but it’s the closest thing we’ve got so far. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2004, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-official-election-fraud-thread/270450/3 "2004-10-21T18:26:28Z")
As for the Michigan ballot you linked to - that’s been debunked on the SDMB. It was a draft ballot, and limited to just a few counties, none of which were actually affected. ---
**Author:** ![malkavia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malkavia/32/5621_2.png) [@malkavia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/malkavia)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2004, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-official-election-fraud-thread/270450/4 "2004-10-21T18:33:45Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > As for the Michigan ballot you linked to - that’s been debunked on the SDMB. It was a draft ballot, and limited to just a few counties, none of which were actually affected. Oh wow, I missed that! I’m going to go apologize to the numerous people I’ve linked that site to now. :smack: :smack: :smack: Thanks for the heads up! ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2004, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-official-election-fraud-thread/270450/5 "2004-10-21T18:56:25Z")
Don’t worry. There’ll be more. Maybe not organized but there will CERTAINLY be screw ups that we can argue about. ---
**Author:** ![Tigers2B1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc29f/32.png) [@Tigers2B1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tigers2B1)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2004, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-official-election-fraud-thread/270450/6 "2004-10-21T19:00:50Z")
More than 10,000 lawyers are lined and waiting. Millions of dollars have been allocated. Believe me — there WILL be fraud. Thousands of cases I suspect. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2004, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-official-election-fraud-thread/270450/7 "2004-10-21T19:07:27Z")
Some (selfish 😉 links of interest: [Republicans destroying Democrat voter registrations?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=280637&highlight=destroying) [One weeks’ worth of Republican dirty tricks](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=5372526&postcount=8) ---
**Author:** ![5que](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/5/3bc359/32.png) [@5que](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/5que)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2004, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-official-election-fraud-thread/270450/8 "2004-10-21T19:33:32Z")
> [@Tigers2B1](#): > > More than 10,000 lawyers are lined and waiting. Millions of dollars have been allocated. Believe me — there WILL be fraud. Thousands of cases I suspect. Where I work, quite a few lawyers and paralegals are heading to Wisconsin for the “Voter Protection Effort” on Election day – Illinois being a safely blue state: > [@](#): > > The campaign also needs lawyers (and interested paralegals) to sign up as a member of the Wisconsin Voter Protection Team. These individuals will monitor priority wards, preventing honest mistakes and dirty tricks, and resolving legal disputes that arise during the day --even, when necessary, advising to take a matter to court. Team members will also make sure every eligible voter has access to the polls, regardless of race, student status, or physical disability. I stand by my prediction we won’t know a winner on November 5th. Sigh… ---
**Author:** ![Tigers2B1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc29f/32.png) [@Tigers2B1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tigers2B1)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2004, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-official-election-fraud-thread/270450/9 "2004-10-21T19:42:15Z")
Least you misunderstand me — IMO there WILL be “fraud” but not necessarly to the extent I suspect it will be reported — but because there are over 10,000 lawyers and millions of dollars - and a _hell of a lot of emotion_. Now mix these explosive ingredients together - money, lawyers, and emotion - and out pops charges of “fraud” - ---
**Author:** ![CrankyAsAnOldMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crankyasanoldman/32/11670_2.png) [@CrankyAsAnOldMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CrankyAsAnOldMan)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2004, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-official-election-fraud-thread/270450/10 "2004-10-21T19:46:24Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > As for the Michigan ballot you linked to - that’s been debunked on the SDMB. It was a draft ballot, and limited to just a few counties, none of which were actually affected. Hm, the story in Michigan is that is was more than just a draft ballot, but it was, as you said, limited to one area, and was distributed to less than 70 people as an absentee ballot before the error was caught. They have all been issued new ballots. ---
**Author:** ![malkavia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malkavia/32/5621_2.png) [@malkavia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/malkavia)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2004, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-official-election-fraud-thread/270450/11 "2004-10-21T21:56:30Z")
Thank you for clarifying, **Cranky**. 10,000 lawyers? Wow. This could very well drag into next year. Let’s hope it’s a clean sweep so the incumbent has plenty of time to pack his belongings. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Orbifold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/779978/32.png) [@Orbifold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Orbifold)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2004, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-official-election-fraud-thread/270450/12 "2004-10-21T22:02:45Z")
For a long list of accusations against Republicans, you may want to look at [this recent blog post](http://dneiwert.blogspot.com/archives/2004_10_17_dneiwert_archive.html#109830622308006215) on Orcinus. David Neiwert holds _very_ strong opinions about the Republican party and George Bush’s administration, but the post contains links to lots of source material, involving the [Ohio Secretary of State](http://www.dispatch.com/election/election-local.php?story=dispatch/2004/10/21/20041021-A1-00.html) and [employees and contractors of the South Dakota Republican Party](http://keloland.com/NewsDetail2817.cfm?Id=22,35221), one of whom now works for the Republicans in Ohio despite still being under investigation in South Dakota. There’s also a link to [a denunciation of Republican tactics in New Hampshire](http://www.concordmonitor.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20041019/REPOSITORY/410190316/1037/NEWS04) by a former Republican Senator. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2004, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-official-election-fraud-thread/270450/13 "2004-10-21T22:17:38Z")
> [@Tigers2B1](#): > > More than 10,000 lawyers are lined and waiting. Millions of dollars have been allocated. Believe me — there WILL be fraud. Thousands of cases I suspect. Now, now, **Tiger!** You don’t line up the lawyers and the cash like that to **perpretrate** fraud! You do it so you can jump right away on the **other** guy’f fraud! With all those lawyers – and press scrutiny, and exit pollers, and partisan and independent pollwatchers – we might get a lot of conflicts and litigation, but how could anyone get away with even a tiny bit of fraud? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2004, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-official-election-fraud-thread/270450/14 "2004-10-21T22:18:59Z")
> [@Tigers2B1](#): > > Least you misunderstand me — IMO there WILL be “fraud” but not necessarly to the extent I suspect it will be reported — but because there are over 10,000 lawyers and millions of dollars - and a _hell of a lot of emotion_. Now mix these explosive ingredients together - money, lawyers, and emotion - and out pops charges of “fraud” - Yes, yes – all that makes “charges” highly likely, but the real thing much, much less likely. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![MrFantsyPants](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ba0ec/32.png) [@MrFantsyPants](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrFantsyPants)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2004, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-official-election-fraud-thread/270450/15 "2004-10-21T23:36:04Z")
Okay, so speaking of election fraud, what is happening currently with Diebold? The last I heard, their machines were vulnerable to undetectable tempering, republican law makers were resisting or ignoring calls to install printers for a paper trail, and the CEO of the company had said that he would do anything in his power to hand the election to George Bush. I assume their must be more going on with this, or there would be open revolt in the streets, right? ---
**Author:** ![NurseCarmen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5daacb/32.png) [@NurseCarmen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NurseCarmen)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2004, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-official-election-fraud-thread/270450/16 "2004-10-22T00:56:44Z")
> [@MrFantsyPants](#): > > and the CEO of the company had said that he would do anything in his power to hand the election to George Bush. I hadn’t heard that. Do you have a cite? Just out of morbid curiosity. ---
**Author:** ![5\_time\_champ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/5/278dde/32.png) [@5\_time\_champ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/5_time_champ)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2004, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-official-election-fraud-thread/270450/17 "2004-10-22T01:36:41Z")
> [@NurseCarmen](#): > > I hadn’t heard that. Do you have a cite? Just out of morbid curiosity. Here ya [go.](http://www.ohio.com/mld/beaconjournal/business/6646063.htm?1c) Absolutely despicable. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2004, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-official-election-fraud-thread/270450/18 "2004-10-22T01:49:37Z")
> [@MrFantsyPants](#): > > Okay, so speaking of election fraud, what is happening currently with Diebold? > > The last I heard, their machines were vulnerable to undetectable tempering, republican law makers were resisting or ignoring calls to install printers for a paper trail, and the CEO of the company had said that he would do anything in his power to hand the election to George Bush. Congressional Republicans prevented passage of a federal law requiring printers on all electronic voting machines, which would have allowed hand recounts on votes cast by electronic machines. Laws on the topic vary from state to state. In the California Recall election it was determined that Diebold machines had resulted in several thousand ballots being messed up and not counted. To this, a company spokesman said “Oops, we got caught.” ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2004, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-official-election-fraud-thread/270450/19 "2004-10-22T02:16:20Z")
> [@MrFantsyPants](#): > > Okay, so speaking of election fraud, what is happening currently with Diebold? > > The last I heard, their machines were vulnerable to undetectable tempering, republican law makers were resisting or ignoring calls to install printers for a paper trail, and the CEO of the company had said that he would do anything in his power to hand the election to George Bush. > > I assume their must be more going on with this, or there would be open revolt in the streets, right? Well, to begin with: We test-drove those machines in Florida in the August 31 primary – and some problems popped up right away. From the _The Petersburg Times,_ 10/4/04 – [http://www.sptimes.com/2004/10/04/Tampabay/Voting\_mystery\_stirs\_.shtml:](http://www.sptimes.com/2004/10/04/Tampabay/Voting_mystery_stirs_.shtml:) > [@](#): > > TAMPA - In the Aug. 31 primary, the population of a small town - 12,498 voters - appeared at the polls in Hillsborough County and apparently decided not to vote in the race for state attorney. > > No one is sure why those voters didn’t vote, or if they did, what might have happened to their votes. > > Local residents declined to vote in even greater numbers in Hillsborough races for property appraiser, School Board and some judges. In fact, the “undervote” - the phenomenon in which citizens push an activation card into a touch screen voting machine but have no vote tallied for one or more races - was significantly higher in Hillsborough than in many other large Florida counties. > > Palm Beach County, which uses the same Sequoia Voting Systems machines as Hillsborough, saw an undervote ranging from 3.1 percent to 8.4 percent of voter turnout, depending on the race. Broward, which uses optical scan voting machines, had an undervote of 6.4 percent on the one race open to all voters. > > Hillsborough’s undervote on countywide contests ranged from 9 percent in the race that re-elected State Attorney Mark Ober, to a whopping 17.5 percent in the race in which Charles “Ed” Bergmann was elected circuit judge. > > In Pinellas County, which uses Sequoia machines, the undervote on countywide contests ranged from 9.1 percent in a School Board race to 13 percent in a judicial contest. > > The question is: Why? > > Are voters refusing to vote? Or are votes not registering on electronic machines? > > \ > > Buddy Johnson, Hillsborough’s supervisor of elections, attributed the glitches to human error and believes voters should have complete confidence in the touch screen machines. > > Johnson believes undervoting occurs when voters decline to vote because they know little about a race, or when they simply want to send a message that they don’t care for any of the candidates on a particular slate. > > “People just undervote,” Johnson said. > > Rob MacKenna, an Eckerd Corp. computer programmer who is the Democratic challenger to Johnson, strongly disagrees. To address the undervote question, he says, local government must pay for a paper-trail audit system as both a check on the electronic voting system and a boost to voter confidence. > > MacKenna’s skepticism about the cause of the undervote stems from the presidential preference primary last March, where a single question was listed on the ballot but where 255 Hillsborough voters, or 0.76 percent of the turnout, had no vote tabulated. Had 255 residents driven to the polls, signed in, walked to the touch screen machine, then decided to abandon the whole idea? > > MacKenna refuses to believe it. > > The big question is, are we losing people’s votes?" MacKenna said. “That’s what the preliminary data seems to suggest. And that’s the No. 1 thing we can’t have.” > > Last month, MacKenna flew to a vendors show in Las Vegas to see audit printers manufactured by Sequoia. The shoe box-sized devices fit on the side of a voting machine and display a roll of audit paper under a fixed pane of glass. > > The printer has cash register-style paper, easily visible to the voter, which displays the vote. It also generates a bar code that can be used with an optical scanner for recounts and election audits. Surprisingly, MacKenna said, voters who use machines with printers vote faster, apparently because they readily see their vote result and don’t try to backtrack. > > \ > > But don’t look for the audit printers at the Nov. 2 general election. The printers haven’t been certified by the state of Florida and can’t be ready by election day. It would be practical for a touchscreen voting machine to create a verifiable paper trail. From “How They Could Steal the Election This Time,” by Ronnie Dugger, in The Nation, August 16, 2004 ([http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20040816&s=dugger](http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20040816&s=dugger)): > [@](#): > > The principal proposed security safeguard for the DRE system was invented, but not patented, ten years ago by computer scientist Rebecca Mercuri, now a research fellow at Harvard. In her solution, after voters record their choices on the touch-screen, they confirm them on a paper ballot that appears under glass and then push a button to cast the vote, causing the machine to deposit the paper ballot in a box that will hold it for recounting if that is ordered. The printer for the paper ballots for each voting machine should cost about $50; the total add-on could be $300-$600. But Governor Jeb Bush and SOS Glenda Hood won’t hear of it. Congressman Robert Wexler (D-Fla.) is suing Florida SOS Glenda Hood to require paper trails on the machines – but at this point, there’s no way the case can be decided before 11/2. [http://www.wexler.house.gov/pressreleases/101304.htm:](http://www.wexler.house.gov/pressreleases/101304.htm:) > [@](#): > > Contacts: Dana Kelly > Phone: (202) 225-3001 > > October 13, 2004 > > Press Release > (Washington, D.C.) Attorneys for Congressman Robert Wexler subpoenaed Secretary of State Glenda Hood to testify in the federal trial scheduled to begin on Monday, October 18 at the United States Courthouse in Fort Lauderdale, Florida. Secretary Hood is being asked to testify in her capacity as the State’s chief elections officer and as the head of a department that continues to disregard its statutory responsibilities. > > Congressman Wexler’s suit cites the equal protection clause of the U.S. Constitution and the precedent set by Bush v. Gore in the 2000 presidential election and claims that it is unconstitutional for 52 counties in Florida to have a means to conduct a recount, while 15 other Florida counties with touch-screen voting machines have a paperless system not allowing for one. Despite the clear requirements of Florida law, the Department of State under Secretary Hood has been incapable of producing a rule to explain to the 15 touch-screen counties how to conduct a manual recount and recently missed their self-imposed deadline to produce the new rule after their previous attempt was struck down by an administrative judge. > > “I look forward to hearing from Secretary Hood under oath regarding actions her office has taken in certifying machines that blatantly do not comply with Florida’s manual recount law and that have created distinctly unequal voting systems in Florida. Hood and her office have disregarded the basic rights of voters under Florida law and the United States Constitution, and the Secretary has a lot of explaining to do,” Wexler said. > > Wexler is represented in this lawsuit by Jeffrey M. Liggio of Liggio, Benrubi & Williams in West Palm Beach. Local columnist Howard Troxler said there’s nuttin to worry about, in an editorial in the 10/11/04 _St. Petersburg Times_ – [http://www.sptimes.com/2004/10/12/Columns/The\_first\_vote\_isn\_t\_.shtml:](http://www.sptimes.com/2004/10/12/Columns/The_first_vote_isn_t_.shtml:) > [@](#): > > ISSUE NO. 3: TOUCH SCREEN VOTING. Despite the best efforts of Hillsborough County to prove otherwise, the machines themselves work fine. They add two plus two. Each machine used in Pinellas or Hillsborough counties produces a printed summary of their vote totals, and can even print out a copy of each individual ballot recorded. > > Repeat after me: There. Is. A. Paper. Trail. > > Admittedly, there might be something about touch-screen machines that makes it easier for voters to skip a race accidentally - the so-called “undervote.” But that is human oversight, not a vote-eating software glitch. Besides, touch screens eliminate all “overvotes,” casting two votes in the same race, a much bigger problem. > > As for an Evil Conspiracy to rig the machines: Forget it. Nice to know somebody thinks so. He does not say that the printout is produced **at the same time** the vote is recorded, so the voter can make sure it matches what he or she entered. Meanwhile, some citizens’ organizations are fighting for a paper trail, and/or planing to monitor the polls closely for irregularities – see [http://www.verifiedvoting.org/](http://www.verifiedvoting.org/), [http://www.blackboxvoting.org/](http://www.blackboxvoting.org/), [Home - Common Cause Florida](http://www.commoncause.org/states/florida/), and [http://www.commoncause.org/news/default.cfm?ArtID=389](http://www.commoncause.org/news/default.cfm?ArtID=389). But, here at last, is something that might be good news! From the New York Times, 10/17/04 – [http://www.nytimes.com/2004/10/17/weekinreview/17plis.html?oref=login&oref=login:](http://www.nytimes.com/2004/10/17/weekinreview/17plis.html?oref=login&oref=login:) > [@](#): > > WASHINGTON — Since the 1960’s, the exit poll, that staple of election-night television, has been used along with other tools to declare winners when the polls close in each state, and its accuracy is noted later when the actual vote count proves it right. A landmark exception, of course, came in 2000, when the networks initially gave the decisive Florida vote to Al Gore. > > But now exit polls are being used in some places to monitor the official vote count itself, either to validate the outcome or to mount a challenge to it. > > That has happened in several countries in the last year, and in the United States one organization plans to use exit polls in five closely contested states in November to measure whether there have been impediments to voting. > > \ > > Votewatch, a nonpartisan, nonprofit organization based in San Francisco, plans to conduct exit polls in selected states to monitor election procedures and record impediments to voting, including voting equipment flaws, confusion over ballots and perceived discrimination by polling officials. That article relates how points out that exit-polling played a crucial role in the 2003 parliamentary elections in Georgia. The official results declared President Shevardnadze’s party the winner, but the exit polls told a different story. An angry mob marched on the presidential palace, and Shevardnadze was forced to resign. But, of course, nothing like that could **ever** happen here, could it? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![MrFantsyPants](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ba0ec/32.png) [@MrFantsyPants](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrFantsyPants)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2004, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-official-election-fraud-thread/270450/20 "2004-10-22T02:39:41Z")
So, basically the Diebold situation is as bad as it ever was, and the only hope of securing a trustworthy election lies in the hands of dedicated and concerned citizens (not the government and its many committees)? Wow, I don’t see how Bush can lose! [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-official-election-fraud-thread/270450.md?page=2)