# The Official MLB Offseason Thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [October 29, 2011, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-official-mlb-offseason-thread/601185 "2011-10-29T14:39:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 25
**Author:** ![Southern\_Yankee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/southern_yankee/32/2800_2.png) [@Southern\_Yankee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Southern_Yankee)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2012, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-official-mlb-offseason-thread/601185/481 "2012-02-23T01:02:32Z")
As we wait for games to start, it’s a good time to reflect on how lucky we are to be witness to some of the greats that future generations will revere. Some got to watch Ted Williams hit, or Bob Feller pitch. Clemente throw someone out from right field. I wasn’t that lucky. But I did get to see this guy ply his trade better than anyone before him. At age _41_ he put up this stat line: W L ERA SV ER HR BB SO ERA+ WHIP BB/9 SO/9 1 2 1.91 44 13 3 8 60 232 0.897 1.2 8.8 NY papers are saying this may be his last season. Watch when you can. I never got to see Walter Johnson. But I got to watch Mo. ETA: sorry for the formatting… ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2012, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-official-mlb-offseason-thread/601185/482 "2012-02-23T01:06:31Z")
This is the last year of his contract and the other day he pretty much said “I’m retiring” in every possible way except coming out and saying “I’m retiring.” Trying to imagine the Yankees’ pen without Mo is a little bit like trying to imagine baseball without bats. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2012, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-official-mlb-offseason-thread/601185/483 "2012-02-23T02:33:32Z")
> [@Southern\_Yankee](#): > > As we wait for games to start, it’s a good time to reflect on how lucky we are to be witness to some of the greats that future generations will revere. Some got to watch Ted Williams hit, or Bob Feller pitch. Clemente throw someone out from right field. I wasn’t that lucky. But I did get to see this guy ply his trade better than anyone before him. At age _41_ he put up this stat line: > > W L ERA SV ER HR BB SO ERA+ WHIP BB/9 SO/9 > 1 2 1.91 44 13 3 8 60 232 0.897 1.2 8.8 > > NY papers are saying this may be his last season. Watch when you can. I never got to see Walter Johnson. But I got to watch Mo. > > ETA: sorry for the formatting… > [@Marley23](#): > > This is the last year of his contract and the other day he pretty much said “I’m retiring” in every possible way except coming out and saying “I’m retiring.” Trying to imagine the Yankees’ pen without Mo is a little bit like trying to imagine baseball without bats. Well I can remember Gossage, Lyle and Rags so post Mo won’t be quite as tough for me, but as \*\*Southern Yankee \*\*wrote, MO was the best there has ever been at his position. It really isn’t close. He is the “Exception to all Rules” to quote Tom Verducci. He is the one player so clearly clutch that the hundreds that can prove without question there is no such thing as clutch will concede Mo is the exception. It is his [Post Season numbers that really standout](http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/r/riverma01.shtml#pitching_postseason::none): In 96 post season games he has a .70 ERA. That is 141 innings and 42 saves (of course 42) and is 8-1 as far as Wins and losses. His post season whip is 0.759! He has only surrendered 2 homers. Some regular season career gems: His being on top of the list for saves is not a credit to him, it is him lending his greatness to a very flawed stat. He is the active leader in BB & Hits per 9 innings and 2nd overall. His adjusted ERA is the best ever. He is #2 active & #5 overall for Ks/BBs They don’t keep official records, but one of the bat companies mentioned he has broken more bats by far then any other pitcher. Here’s a good one, shows what a firefighter he has been: **Base-Out Runs Saved (RE24)** Mo is the active leader and more importantly he is 13th overall and I don’t see another reliever in the top 40. Ecks is 29th but he started 361 games. It is basically a starter’s stat. There is an argument that closers are over-rated and an unneeded expense but Mo does like to follow these rules. He is the active leader in Win Probability Added (WPA) and 4th overall. Another stat that is dominated by Hall of Fame starters. I believe it was Jim Kelly that said way back in 1996, “Someone tell this kid there is no higher league.” The writers stopped writing warnings about his age about 3 years ago as apparently he refuses to age. Again “The exception to all Rules”. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2012, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-official-mlb-offseason-thread/601185/484 "2012-02-23T03:18:32Z")
If I was building my own Hall of Fame, with about the same number of players, there would be just one closer in it, and Mariano Rivera’s it. I don’t know why he wants to retire. He could pitch until he’s 50. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2012, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-official-mlb-offseason-thread/601185/485 "2012-02-23T03:40:26Z")
**What Exit?** - great write-up, but could you provide some links? There are a lot of stats there that aren’t that easy to look up for some reason. ---
**Author:** ![Mister\_Rik](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mister_rik/32/491_2.png) [@Mister\_Rik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mister_Rik)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2012, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-official-mlb-offseason-thread/601185/486 "2012-02-23T04:03:30Z")
Mariners manager, Eric Wedge, has confirmed that [Ichiro will be batting third this year](http://mariners.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20120221&content_id=26782468&vkey=news_sea&c_id=sea). Leadoff spot looks to be a choice between Chone Figgins and Dustin Ackley. Maybe putting Figgins back at leadoff will bring his game back. I _know_ the guy’s a lot better than what we’ve seen of him his first couple seasons in Seattle. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2012, 6:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-official-mlb-offseason-thread/601185/487 "2012-02-23T06:35:17Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > There is an argument that closers are over-rated and an unneeded expense… Right, but that’s been the argument precisely because teams often either put a guy at closer who’s not especially great, and who manages to get saves because getting saves isn’t really that hard, or (conversely) put a guy at closer is who is really good but whose talent is somewhat wasted because he isn’t brought into the game in enough high-leverage situations. No-one has ever said that an all-time great pitcher is “over-rated and an unneeded expense,” and Rivera’s stats say more about his pitching ability than they do about the position of closer. Hell, if the Yankees had used him optimally over the years, instead of in the often-pointless-and-arbitrarily-designated role of “closer,” his Base-Out Runs Saved and Win Probability Added numbers would probably be even better. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2012, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-official-mlb-offseason-thread/601185/488 "2012-02-23T15:06:28Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > **What Exit?** - great write-up, but could you provide some links? There are a lot of stats there that aren’t that easy to look up for some reason. I’m on an iPhone currently so no links but all the stats are either from the bottom of Mo’s page on baseball-reference or their leaders page in the pitching section. I tried to grab stats that minimized the team and ephasized his individual greatness. ---
**Author:** ![etv78](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d78d45/32.png) [@etv78](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/etv78)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2012, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-official-mlb-offseason-thread/601185/489 "2012-02-23T22:50:24Z")
1.Ichiro hit 3rd in Japan (never knew that before) 2.Ryan Braun’s suspension has been overturned. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2012, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-official-mlb-offseason-thread/601185/490 "2012-02-23T22:58:38Z")
Holy crap, I didn’t see that coming. No reasoning has been given, and I hope Braun or Das or someone will make a statement eventually. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2012, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-official-mlb-offseason-thread/601185/491 "2012-02-23T23:00:23Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Holy crap, I didn’t see that coming. No reasoning has been given, and I hope Braun or Das or someone will make a statement eventually. They\* better make a fucking statement with some compelling reasoning. Until i hear otherwise, i’m chalking the reversal up to “Protect the Golden Boy.” - Das and/or MLB, that is. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2012, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-official-mlb-offseason-thread/601185/492 "2012-02-23T23:07:35Z")
I don’t think Das has any interest in protecting the Golden Boy since he’s the independent member of the panel. But I want to know everybody’s reasoning regardless. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2012, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-official-mlb-offseason-thread/601185/493 "2012-02-23T23:08:21Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > Right, but that’s been the argument precisely because teams often either put a guy at closer who’s not especially great, and who manages to get saves because getting saves isn’t really that hard, or (conversely) put a guy at closer is who is really good but whose talent is somewhat wasted because he isn’t brought into the game in enough high-leverage situations. I’d still argue more closers are overrated, even the ones who pitch well. It’s difficult for a guy who pitches 70 innings to actually be a great pitcher. Look at it this way; last year Ricky Romero, a starting pitcher, had a really good year. He went 15-11 and had a 2.92 ERA. He made the All-Star team and got a couple of Cy Young votes, and deserved to. You wouldn’t put it amongst the all-time great seasons or anything though. He was, let’s say, the 7th best pitcher in the league, something like that. The difference between Ricky Romero and an AVERAGE pitcher is about 40 runs. That’s roughly what he saved his team. Now take Jose Valverde, who had a very good year with Detroit; a 2.24 ERA, 49 saves. He was really, really good - but in just 72.1 innings, as opposed to Romero’s 225. The difference between Valverde and an average pitcher was 17, maybe 18 runs, tops. A relief pitcher just isn’t that valuable, even when they pitch well. Tom Henke had a better ERA+ than Tom Seaver, but he just didn’t pitch enough to merit the comparison. Bruce Sutter pitched really well… for 1042 innings, which is substantially fewer than the number of innings Roy Halladay has thrown in just the last five years. No matter how good you are, a guy with 70-80 innings can’t be THAT good, and certainly shouldn’t be considered for a Cy Young Award. What differentiates Rivera is that 1. He is utterly dominant; his typical year would have been one of the best seasons of Bruce Sutter’s career, or Trevor Hoffman’s, or whomever, and 2. He does it year after year after year after year without stopping, and 3. Plus he’s racked up a playoff record that is the equivalent of the greatest season a relief pitcher has ever had. Here are the career WAR for relief pitchers, going down a list of career saves leaders: Mo Rivera: 56.3 Hoffman: 30.8 Lee Smith: 30.3 John Franco: 25.8 Billy Wagner: 29.7 Eckersley: 58.7, but most of that is as a starting pitcher Jeff Reardon 20.3 Troy Percival: 18.1 Randy Myers: 16.9 Rollie Fingers: 24.4 Francisco Cordero: 21.4 A few other notables get into to 20s; Hoyt Wilhelm is just over 40 but his best season by far was when he was a starter, and Goose Gossage is 40 on hte nose. Rivera is just completely on a different page; no other relief pitcher has ever been comparable. ---
**Author:** ![Jas09](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d07c76/32.png) [@Jas09](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jas09)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2012, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-official-mlb-offseason-thread/601185/494 "2012-02-23T23:15:08Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I don’t think Das has any interest in protecting the Golden Boy since he’s the independent member of the panel. But I want to know everybody’s reasoning regardless. A few quotes from the ESPN article about this: > [@](#): > > As a part of our drug testing program, the commissioner’s office and the players’ association agreed to a neutral third party review for instances that are under dispute. While we have always respected that process, Major League Baseball vehemently disagrees with the decision rendered today by arbitrator Shyam Das. It was a 2-1 decision with the independent party siding with the Union in support of Braun. > [@](#): > > According to one of the sources, the collector, after getting Braun’s sample, was supposed to take the sample to FedEx/Kinkos for shipping but thought it was closed because it was late on a Saturday. As has occurred in some other instances, the collector took the sample home and kept it refrigerated. Policy states that the sample is supposed to get to FedEx as soon as possible. Braun challenged on chain of custody and protocol grounds. > [@](#): > > Source says MLB is livid and is considering options. Certainly a big boost for the Brewers heading into what should be a tight NL Central. ---
**Author:** ![Hawkeyeop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/958977/32.png) [@Hawkeyeop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hawkeyeop)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2012, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-official-mlb-offseason-thread/601185/495 "2012-02-23T23:53:12Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > They\* better make a fucking statement with some compelling reasoning. Until i hear otherwise, i’m chalking the reversal up to “Protect the Golden Boy.” > > - Das and/or MLB, that is. Why? Hell if this was handled right we shouldn’t even have known that Braun failed a test if he won his appeal, but mlb once again does a terrible job at containing leaks. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2012, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-official-mlb-offseason-thread/601185/496 "2012-02-24T00:17:49Z")
> [@Hawkeyeop](#): > > Why? Hell if this was handled right we shouldn’t even have known that Braun failed a test if he won his appeal, but mlb once again does a terrible job at containing leaks. I think that’s crap. Failed tests should be made public, and if the appeal is successful then the reason for the reversal should also be made public. I recognize that MLB isn’t the government, and doesn’t have the same obligation to be transparent, but i think it’s better for everyone in cases like this if the whole process is open and accountable to the stakeholders, which includes the fans. ---
**Author:** ![Hawkeyeop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/958977/32.png) [@Hawkeyeop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hawkeyeop)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2012, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-official-mlb-offseason-thread/601185/497 "2012-02-24T00:39:36Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > I think that’s crap. > > Failed tests should be made public, and if the appeal is successful then the reason for the reversal should also be made public. I recognize that MLB isn’t the government, and doesn’t have the same obligation to be transparent, but i think it’s better for everyone in cases like this if the whole process is open and accountable to the stakeholders, which includes the fans. Maybe they should (I personally disagree since I don’t think the general public tends to take a very guilty until proven guilty attitude) but the agreement between the mlb and the players union says they are not, and this is certainly not the first time that mlb has allowed information to be leaked that they agreed to keep confidential. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2012, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-official-mlb-offseason-thread/601185/498 "2012-02-24T00:48:30Z")
> [@Hawkeyeop](#): > > Maybe they should (I personally disagree since I don’t think the general public tends to take a very guilty until proven guilty attitude) but the agreement between the mlb and the players union says they are not, and this is certainly not the first time that mlb has allowed information to be leaked that they agreed to keep confidential. I know that what happened contravened the agreement between MLB and the players’ union, and i agree that the leak shouldn’t have happened under current rules. I was making a principled argument about what i believe that policy _should_ be. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2012, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-official-mlb-offseason-thread/601185/499 "2012-02-24T01:35:39Z")
Braun should be booed at 29 ball parks\* for the rest of his career for sliming out of his 50 days suspension on a technicality. This is sad and pathetic. - I know it is too much to ask the Brewer fans to boo him, but they should. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2012, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-official-mlb-offseason-thread/601185/500 "2012-02-24T01:39:42Z")
Wow. That’s just a joke. Granted that the protocols exist for a reason, but unless there’s some kind of reason to believe that the delay affected his results - and I’m open to hearing about that - this is completely ridiculous. Fuck Braun. He cheated and got lucky. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-official-mlb-offseason-thread/601185.md?page=24) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-official-mlb-offseason-thread/601185.md?page=26)