# The Official MLB Offseason Thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [October 29, 2011, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-official-mlb-offseason-thread/601185 "2011-10-29T14:39:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 29
**Author:** ![Enuma\_Elish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5e9695/32.png) [@Enuma\_Elish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enuma_Elish)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2012, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-official-mlb-offseason-thread/601185/561 "2012-02-26T00:42:36Z")
Jon Heyman at CBS Sports also mentions DNA. [www.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry/33714192/34977466](http://www.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry/33714192/34977466) I’m starting to wonder if mention of DNA got scrubbed from jsonline. If you look at their Brewer blogs, there are multiple evolving entries. Anyhow, I stand by my belief that any assumption of wrongdoing by Braun before **all** the facts are out is intellectually lazy and mean-spirited. Braun’s weight, running times, and strength were regularly tested and documented. There were no spikes, surges, or large variations that would suggest doping of any type. Braun’s physique never changed, nor did he ever exhibit any tell-tale pimple patterns. There was NOTHING, but a very odd nearly one-of-a-kind almost-never-been-seen-before spike in testosterone. A spike that had not been seen since the Diane Modahl case. [www.thelawyer.com/sports/mergers-guidelines-beyond-reproach/96293.article](http://www.thelawyer.com/sports/mergers-guidelines-beyond-reproach/96293.article) ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2012, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-official-mlb-offseason-thread/601185/562 "2012-02-26T01:00:18Z")
You’re welcome to your opinion and I expect many Brewer fans will share it but **Enuma** writing the below hardly supports your argument as it insults the rest of us for what the facts so far support. > [@](#): > > Anyhow, I stand by my belief that any assumption of wrongdoing by Braun before **all** the facts are out is intellectually lazy and mean-spirited. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2012, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-official-mlb-offseason-thread/601185/563 "2012-02-26T01:37:16Z")
We’re wasting each other’s time, **Enuma**. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2012, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-official-mlb-offseason-thread/601185/564 "2012-02-26T02:04:12Z")
> [@Enuma\_Elish](#): > > Anyhow, I stand by my belief that any assumption of wrongdoing by Braun before **all** the facts are out is intellectually lazy and mean-spirited. > > Braun’s weight, running times, and strength were regularly tested and documented. > There were no spikes, surges, or large variations that would suggest doping of any type. Braun’s physique never changed, nor did he ever exhibit any tell-tale pimple patterns. You know what’s intellectually lazy? Assuming that a lack of “spikes, surges, or large variations” and an absence of pimples is somehow evidence that Braun wasn’t taking a banned substance. ---
**Author:** ![Enuma\_Elish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5e9695/32.png) [@Enuma\_Elish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enuma_Elish)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2012, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-official-mlb-offseason-thread/601185/565 "2012-02-26T02:38:02Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > You know what’s intellectually lazy? > > Assuming that a lack of “spikes, surges, or large variations” and an absence of pimples is somehow evidence that Braun wasn’t taking a banned substance. So - what are you saying - - that taking any type of performance enhancer does nothing to enhance performance? Or that tests don’t show this? Or are you making the completely ridiculous argument that Braun doped, but fudged all his regular time trials and strength tests so well that there was no variation? ---
**Author:** ![Enuma\_Elish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5e9695/32.png) [@Enuma\_Elish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enuma_Elish)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2012, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-official-mlb-offseason-thread/601185/566 "2012-02-26T02:57:14Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > You’re welcome to your opinion and I expect many Brewer fans will share it but **Enuma** writing the below hardly supports your argument as it insults the rest of us for what the facts so far support. ESPN is also reporting that Braun wanted to do a DNA test, but was rebuffed by MLB. on Outside the Lines - Lester Munson talks about it. The facts do not support you. The facts support Braun. You refuse to look at the facts. You insult me in your continued refusal to consider anything but what you already believe. Where are your cites? Where are your links? Where is anything but: Braun’s supposed sample tested positive la la la la la neener neener neener? ---
**Author:** ![Carmady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f04885/32.png) [@Carmady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carmady)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2012, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-official-mlb-offseason-thread/601185/567 "2012-02-26T04:56:56Z")
> [@Enuma\_Elish](#): > > So - what are you saying - - that taking any type of performance enhancer does nothing to enhance performance? Or that tests don’t show this? Or are you making the completely ridiculous argument that Braun doped, but fudged all his regular time trials and strength tests so well that there was no variation? You haven’t thought this argument through. It is possible Braun has been using some type of PEDs for his whole career. And even if not, it is a very weak argument: PEDs can be used to aid in recovery or just to make it easier to maintain top shape. The idea that you can tell steroid users by looking is ancient history. The one thing I would really like to see before concluding that Braun did or did not use steroids is an actual scientist weighing in. How accurate is the test? Can there be a false positive? Does the time factor or temperature matter? Were the results suspiciously high (so high it looks like something went wrong in the test)? Is it strange for his results to be so high, and then his next test to be normal? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2012, 6:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-official-mlb-offseason-thread/601185/568 "2012-02-26T06:16:27Z")
> [@MOIDALIZE](#): > > Which is not to say you can’t personally conclude that he’s a doper. You’re certainly entitled to your opinions. But the way he chose to attack MLB’s ruling, by itself, doesn’t make me think any less of him. I don’t think less of him based on his legal approach. I think it doesn’t make sense to say the sample was unreliable because it could have been tampered with when Braun’s lawyers never argued it was tampered with. > [@Enuma\_Elish](#): > > Anyhow, I stand by my belief that any assumption of wrongdoing by Braun before **all** the facts are out is intellectually lazy and mean-spirited. “Mean-spirited?” This is just silly. I had no issues with Ryan Braun before any of this, and I don’t think it can be considered “mean-spirited” (let alone lazy) to conclude that a flunked drug test is a flunked drug test. > [@Enuma\_Elish](#): > > ESPN is also reporting that Braun wanted to do a DNA test, but was rebuffed by MLB. [“[A] source with knowledge of the case said MLB told Braun and his lawyers it didn’t believe such a test was necessary but that they were welcome take up the issue with the arbitrator if they wanted the test conducted.”](http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/page/OTL-Ryan-Braun/ryan-braun-defense-raises-more-questions-doping-experts) Braun and his lawyers did not raise this issue with the arbitrator. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2012, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-official-mlb-offseason-thread/601185/569 "2012-02-26T14:04:31Z")
> [@Enuma\_Elish](#): > > ESPN is also reporting that Braun wanted to do a DNA test, but was rebuffed by MLB. > on Outside the Lines - Lester Munson talks about it. > > The facts do not support you. The facts support Braun. You refuse to look at the facts. You insult me in your continued refusal to consider anything but what you already believe. > > Where are your cites? > > Where are your links? > > Where is anything but: Braun’s supposed sample tested positive la la la la la neener neener neener? Your facts and links are flawed, you have made claims that are unsupported by the truth as you can see from Marley’s post above. No one insulted you but you chose to insult everyone for simply believing a failed drug test is a failed drug test, what more do I need to say? ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2012, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-official-mlb-offseason-thread/601185/570 "2012-02-26T14:22:10Z")
> [@Enuma\_Elish](#): > > ESPN is also reporting that Braun wanted to do a DNA test, but was rebuffed by MLB. > on Outside the Lines - Lester Munson talks about it. > > The facts do not support you. The facts support Braun. You refuse to look at the facts. You insult me in your continued refusal to consider anything but what you already believe. [MODERATING] I will invite you, too, to please restrict the discussion to Ryan Braun and the drug testing issue. What Exit? has not insulted you, and if you wish to make your points attacking arguments is fine but attacking posters is not. RickJay Moderator ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2012, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-official-mlb-offseason-thread/601185/571 "2012-02-26T14:42:14Z")
> [@Enuma\_Elish](#): > > So - what are you saying - - that taking any type of performance enhancer does nothing to enhance performance? Or that tests don’t show this? Or are you making the completely ridiculous argument that Braun doped, but fudged all his regular time trials and strength tests so well that there was no variation? Now, as a baseball fan; There is absolutely MOUNDS of evidence that using steroids can result in a baseball player who is not at all “enhanced” in performance or appearance. Lots and lots of scrub baseball players have been caught by the drug testing program who were scrub players before they took 'roids and remained scrub players after. Lots and lots of baseball players didn’t become bulked up dudes after taking steroids - I would point to Rafael Palmiero as a rather obvious example. Palmiero’s use shocked people because, frankly, he spent his entire career looking just like Keith Hernandez and was never on anyone’s list of players who look juicy. Nor was Andy Pettite, for that matter, who has admitted PED use. As to your claim that Ryan Braun has performed consistently in some speed and strength trials - claims that remain unsupported - who cares? As has been pointed out, steroids and HGH can be used for injury recovery, maintaining a level of performance with less training, or end up not helping you at all. Steroids and HGH are not like Popeye’s spinach; they are, like any other drug, a bit unpredictable in how they’ll affect the human body. You’d expect Oxycontin to help with pain and make you feel good, and it usually does, but it doesn’t work on me. I dunno why, but there it is. Some players get a lot out of PEDs, and some, Neifi Perez has bene suspended for failing PED tests twice now. Neifi always sucked and at no point in his career did he ever look any bulkier or stronger than, say, Tobey Maguire. Edinson Volquez has always looked skinny. Jose Guillenalways looked the same. I can name guys all day, if you want to. The point I’m trying to make here is that attempting to judge ballplayers by what they look like or how they perform is insane. You simply can’t do drug testing that way, or else we would have had to let Rafael Palmiero off the hook and you’d have to accuse Babe Ruth of using 'roids and suspend Jose Bautista (who looks the same as he always did but what a power surge) for life right now. Instead, we do, you know, urine sample testing. And in terms of FACTS, here is the totality of what we know: 1. Ryan Braun did a drug test and he failed. 2. The suspension for the drug test was disallowed because the manner in which the sample was handled was not precisely according to procedure. That’s it; those are all the facts we have at hand. Everything else presented so far is speculation. Which is unfortunate, because it leaves us skeptical of everyone and everything involved. Going just by what seems likely, it seems likely to me that Braun cheated and that MLB is vastly more inept than the abysmally low standard I was already holding them to. As usual, Doug Glanville cuts to the heart of the matter: > **[Glanville: A matter of time](https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/7614445/a-matter-time-ryan-braun-major-league-baseball)** > > It's pretty amazing what can happen in the span of 44 hours. Just ask Ryan Braun and Major League Baseball. ---
**Author:** ![Enuma\_Elish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5e9695/32.png) [@Enuma\_Elish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enuma_Elish)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2012, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-official-mlb-offseason-thread/601185/572 "2012-02-26T16:37:36Z")
A good piece by Dodgers blogger Chad Moriyama. Will Carroll has sources that say Braun and his legal team were able to replicate the high testosterone reading using Braun’s urine and the conditions that existed in the basement of Dino Laurenzi (the sample collector) for 44-48 hours. [www.chadmoriyama.com/2012/02/ryan-braun-what-you-dont-know-about-his-case-is-important/](http://www.chadmoriyama.com/2012/02/ryan-braun-what-you-dont-know-about-his-case-is-important/) Audio interview (long - 11minutes) with Will Carroll on WEEI. Carroll talks about how Braun won his appeal. > **[Home](https://audacyinc.com/)** > > Audacy brings people together around what moves them, and helps advertisers connect to those audiences. We engage over 170 MM consumers each month across our connected platforms. The second link doesn’t seem to be linking, but there is a good link in Chad Moriyama’s article - click _he explained_ right above the first twitter segments. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2012, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-official-mlb-offseason-thread/601185/573 "2012-02-26T17:01:01Z")
Well that is a better link. I would love to see more on the science of leaving the sample out raising the testosterone by 3x and this still bring up an issue that even a third of the level Braun’s sample was actual enough to trigger a suspension. But this is the first item I saw that indicates the processing of the sample was an real problem and not just a procedural one. Pity the article with more detail is buried on pay location through amazon. Of course counter to these bloggers is the actual newspaper reports of Braun’s own words: > [@](#): > > [Braun says that even though when he had to defend himself](http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/milwaukee-brewers-ryan-braun-acquited-exonerated-testosterone-test-article-1.1027851?localLinksEnabled=false)in front of an arbitration panel, he didn’t question the science that had his testosterone level ring the bell the way it did, he questioned language in baseball’s collective bargaining agreement about the chain of custody and baseball’s collection procedures for drug testing. Lupica is pretty well respected nationally and has kept up on the drug testing. He is also a respected author of many sports books. But obviously this professional is just another lazy mainstream writer. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2012, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-official-mlb-offseason-thread/601185/574 "2012-02-26T17:04:15Z")
Here is another major newspaper article with some interesting insights that is not light on the science. This is about the so called “insanely high” readings that were reported and what MLB can do to try and catch more cheats. > **[After Ryan Braun case, MLB should consider Carbon Isotope Ratio testing to...](https://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/ryan-braun-case-mlb-carbon-isotope-ratio-testing-screen-testosterone-article-1.1028470)** > > The recent doping case involving National League MVP Ryan Braun should prompt Major League Baseball to consider the use of CIR (Carbon Isotope Ratio) testing as a screen test for testosterone use. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2012, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-official-mlb-offseason-thread/601185/575 "2012-02-26T17:13:34Z")
> [@Enuma\_Elish](#): > > So - what are you saying - - that taking any type of performance enhancer does nothing to enhance performance? Or that tests don’t show this? Or are you making the completely ridiculous argument that Braun doped, but fudged all his regular time trials and strength tests so well that there was no variation? I’m saying none of those things. I was saying precisely what **RickJay** has now saved me the trouble of typing out in detail: that banned substances are used for a variety of reasons, including recovery and everyday maintenance, and that noticeably large increases in body size or measured strength and speed tests are not always present in those who have used steroids. ---
**Author:** ![NAF1138](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naf1138/32/3245_2.png) [@NAF1138](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NAF1138)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2012, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-official-mlb-offseason-thread/601185/576 "2012-02-26T18:35:02Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > Of course counter to these bloggers . Not that you were saying anything bad about bloggers, I know you weren’t, and I am staying out the rest of this in general as I haven’t made up ky mind yet, but I want to lend some support to Chad. He is just a blogger, but he is a really good one and puts a lot of thought and research into what he writes. Not all bloggers are created equal and if you don’t follow the Dodgers you might not know Chad’s work so you have no idea how reputable he is, so I wanted to chime in and say he is very reputable and is considered a peer by the other Dodger beat writers. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2012, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-official-mlb-offseason-thread/601185/577 "2012-02-26T18:45:56Z")
> [@NAF1138](#): > > Not that you were saying anything bad about bloggers, I know you weren’t, and I am staying out the rest of this in general as I haven’t made up ky mind yet, but I want to lend some support to Chad. He is just a blogger, but he is a really good one and puts a lot of thought and research into what he writes. Not all bloggers are created equal and if you don’t follow the Dodgers you might not know Chad’s work so you have no idea how reputable he is, so I wanted to chime in and say he is very reputable and is considered a peer by the other Dodger beat writers. Fair enough but Lupica is probably considered the #1 sports writer in NYC even though I find him a little pompous at times. I was not dismissing bloggers, but I was putting them a step below professionals and in many cases that is being kind putting them only a step below. ---
**Author:** ![NAF1138](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naf1138/32/3245_2.png) [@NAF1138](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NAF1138)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2012, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-official-mlb-offseason-thread/601185/578 "2012-02-26T19:20:57Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > Fair enough but Lupica is probably considered the #1 sports writer in NYC even though I find him a little pompous at times. I was not dismissing bloggers, but I was putting them a step below professionals and in many cases that is being kind putting them only a step below. No doubt, that’s why I wanted to comment on Chad in particular since the quality of bloggers can have such a large swing to it. There are many professional LA sports writers that I would put below Chad in terms of my own respect and trust, there are many that I would place above him, but he is pretty reputable as far as these things go. That said, I now return you to your regularly scheduled argument. ---
**Author:** ![drm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a88e57/32.png) [@drm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drm)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2012, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-official-mlb-offseason-thread/601185/579 "2012-02-26T22:43:04Z")
I’m not what you’d call an expert on AAAA baseball (National League - and I’m just messing around, of course) but is 100 million for Zimmerman insane or is it just me? Yeah, yeah, yeah, no salary cap, not my money and all that, but still? ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2012, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-official-mlb-offseason-thread/601185/580 "2012-02-26T22:56:22Z")
> [@drm](#): > > I’m not what you’d call an expert on AAAA baseball (National League - and I’m just messing around, of course) but is 100 million for Zimmerman insane or is it just me? > > Yeah, yeah, yeah, no salary cap, not my money and all that, but still? They had him signed through next year and he is only 27. $16.667 per year on average for his numbers and his above average defense is not nuts. Look at some of the other signings recently like Crawford & the oft injured Reyes and I would say they did not do badly by current standards. My question is what were the 2 injuries he had in the last 3 years? Were they anything that need to be feared as chronic or not? Last year was just abdominal surgery so I think calling him a big injury risk is overstating it. As a bonus they now have a top 3B prospect they can trade for a need. Though I know Jon Heyman feels they should have let Zimmerman move on after 2013 and let [Anthony Rendon](http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/players/playerpage/1894625) take over. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-official-mlb-offseason-thread/601185.md?page=28) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-official-mlb-offseason-thread/601185.md?page=30)