# The official "Mr. Moto is a clueless right-wing Republican shill" thread **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 29, 2005, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-official-mr-moto-is-a-clueless-right-wing-republican-shill-thread/314797 "2005-07-29T19:54:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 17
**Author:** ![coleridge78](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f07891/32.png) [@coleridge78](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coleridge78)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-official-mr-moto-is-a-clueless-right-wing-republican-shill-thread/314797/321 "2005-08-03T15:17:06Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > The only person who asked for the definition of “center” was one newby poster who was also busy posted incorrect facts without cites and tossing all kinds of requests at me on how I should be framing my argument. Incorrect. Either as a direct question or as an implication (ie, it’s impossible to say someone is not in the mainstream without defining something in the mainstream from which they deviate), at least three posters (not counting myself) asked you for this. Neurotik, Boret, and the other ‘newby’ to whom I believe you were referring. Point of order, while I’m at it: ‘newby’ is a rather inane slur. First, it says nothing about the person’s argument, and second, they may have been reading the board (and maybe even your posts) for years. Hint, hint. > [@](#): > > Yes, I ignored some of his requests. Some of them were pointless and not related to my main argument. But I did try to answer most of them. I don’t think it’s nessesary to define the center in order to label Pelosi or Kerry an extreme leftist. I don’t care what you “think” is necessary. It’s obviously a debateable position, as evidenced by the fact that someone who is an extreme leftist would hardly be expected to garner nearly 50% of a national vote. This is self-evident, and your “argument” is a handwave. You made exactly two cites: an NRA study and the National Journal article. WRT the NRA bit: this active hunter and marksman and former NRA member joins **Bricker** in questioning the honesty, methodology, and results of such. WRT the National Journal piece: they state outright in the introductions to their “key vote” definitions and ranking that it “grossly oversimplifies the legislative process” and is simply a crude guide, to be used towards further investigation. It also, I will note, does not address the actual issue at hand; officials are ranked based on comparison to each other, not in terms of the “mainstream” of the populace. So you first need to justify why its even apropos (not that the case can’t be made, but you certainly haven’t done so) before one even gets into the other problems with it. > [@](#): > > I notice you guys haven’t bothered to define the center and you are having no trouble labelling Santorum an extreme conservative. False. You have not mentioned a single position held by anyone, iirc, other than Kerry’s gun positions which were highly distorted. Other posters, by comparison, have cited (for example), Santorum’s linking of homosexual acts to man-on-dog sex and posited that such is opposed to the mainstream position that homosexuality has nothing to do with fucking dogs. They have defined one bit of the “center” via specific position held by an elected official. You have not done so. You lose. > [@](#): > > How does one go about “defining the center” anyway? One position at a time, starting with the more important ones hopefully. See above. > [@](#): > > I gave my position on many issues. Name an issue and I’ll tell you my position on it. I’m not hiding anything. It’s silly to attack my as if I’m being unresponsive when it’s not even clear what it is you want from me. Inane. You were not accused of hiding your positions. You were accused of: 1. Not illustrating _how_ Kerry, et al, are outside the mainstream; 2. Making explicit your conception of the “mainstream”, _give that_ most of the positions you said you hold are exactly those held by an alleged raving madman (Dean). Only a handwave was offered in response. “We all KNOW Dean is crazy! Get with the program!” > [@](#): > > You claimed that I “ **avoid answering any of the questions or requests for evidence that have been made of you.** ” This is demonstrably false. I’ve answered many of the questions and requests for evidence that have been made of me. Maybe not every single one of them, but definitely most of them. Your statment is not true. If you read the last couple pages of this thread you would know it’s not true. That makes it a lie. “Lie” goes to intent. I may have been guilty of hyperbole. Let me rephrase more accurately: 1. You have offered only two cites to back up your claims of certain people being far outside the mainstream, both of which have been deemed unreliable by people on your own side of the ideological spectrum–one of which didn’t even offer specifics on any actual positions. 2. Again: You have steadfastly refused to outline but one actual policy position held by an elected official which is allegedly outside the mainstream (Kerry/NRA), and have also steadfastly refused to explain how you holding almost across-the-board “liberal” positions in self-cited issues makes you a sensible centrist while it makes others raving lunatics. _That_ is the true central issue here. You seem to be bashing for no reason other than a label, as you have not submitted for examination much in the way of actual, documented differences between not only “liberals” and the “mainstream” but “liberals” and yourself. > [@](#): > > Yes, it is another lie. I admitted I wanted to do some research before stating whether or not Santorum was more extreme, IMO, than Pelosi. For you to infer that this means I don’t know anything about him is just stupid. Incorrect. If you follow politics at _all_, and being a regular reader and contributor to this board, you must already be familiar with at least his more extreme positions (which I daresay are also all you know about Pelosi, and you consider it sufficient for judgement in her case). What did you know about him, pray tell, before your recent “research”, and why was it not enough for you to already believe that he was as extreme as her; and what makes her so extreme that you needed to know so much about Santorum before relating the two? You still haven’t said anything other than what amounts to “She’s from san fran, she must be a looney!” Please. > [@](#): > > I also stated “it’s not as if Republicans have him running the party” ie, comparing him to Howard Dean the DNC chair. For you to insist that this means I don’t know anything about Santorum’s status in the party is also simply stupid. Incorrect. Your obvious implication had nothing to do with strictly being the chair of the national party or not; it went to the issue of place of influence in the party, generally. If your statement really was meant to be so limited, feel free to say so; it makes it a totally inane tautology. Not much better. A high-ranking Senator, I think nearly everyone would agree, has far more impact on both policy and (more arguably) its day-to-day presentation to the public than does the party chairman. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-official-mr-moto-is-a-clueless-right-wing-republican-shill-thread/314797/322 "2005-08-03T15:28:20Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Now, I’ll admit I’m taking a snapshot of “Senator Kerry, Democratic candidiate for President,” and not “Senator Kerry: 20 Years a Senator.” I agree that in the early part of his career, he was much more leftist than he is now. But NOW, TODAY, Senator Kerry is, in my view, a moderate, centrist Democrat. I agree. In fact, in post #247 I stated: > [@Debaser](#): > > He did try hard to hide his liberal nature when running. He didn’t do a very good job of it, though. I thought it was very clear that he was a liberal in moderates clothing. > > This is an interesting point, actually. When Kerry was running there clearly was an effort to appeal to the middle and tone down an obviously liberal candidate. (I’m saying liberal based on his voting record. He was the single most liberal senator in the US, remember?) His handlers had him out there hunting geese, even! > > However, since the elections, the Democrats seem to have given up on even trying to fool the voters into thinking they are moderates. You see it all the time in mesg boards such as the SDMB “We need to stop being republican lite and actually stand for something! Yaaaarh!” The selection of Dean for DNC chairman and Pelosi as minority leader seems to be the party at large going with this attitude. It seems that the Democrat political thinkers do realize that you need a moderate to win an election, just like the republican ones do. My objection to Kerry is not the way he ran for office, he did do that as a moderate. My objection is more in his liberal voting record which is arguably the most liberal in the senate (or the laziest, as others have pointed out). My point was that picking Kerry to run for president, with his liberal voting record, was a bad move for the Democrats. But, at least he ran as a moderate and has acted like one ever since. The selection of a bomb thrower like Dean is a similar mistake, except that he isn’t even pretending to act like a moderate. Ditto for Pelosi. ---
**Author:** ![coleridge78](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f07891/32.png) [@coleridge78](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coleridge78)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-official-mr-moto-is-a-clueless-right-wing-republican-shill-thread/314797/323 "2005-08-03T15:39:23Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > The selection of a bomb thrower like Dean is a similar mistake, except that he isn’t even pretending to act like a moderate. Ditto for Pelosi. You keep saying these things. You’re blowing smoke until you clarify at _least_ these two bits: 1. Show how Pelosi deviates further from the center than, say, Dennis Hastert. You’re going to have trouble if you go back to your other source–Pelosi rates 88th percentile liberal on economic issues, about the same as Hastert’s 84th percentile conservative. Hastert didn’t even vote often enough to get a ranking in any of the other categories–what were you saying about Kerry being lazy? 2. Not only have you not even attempted to refute that Dean was always a model centrist, endorsed even by the NRA, with anything other than a “but he’s different now!!11!!!” assertion; you have also failed to compare him appropriately to _other people in the equivalent position_. Make a case that he’s more of a “bomb thrower” than Ken Mehlman. I daresay that, again, you’ll have a difficult road ahead of you. To summarize: not only are you failing to back up your bald assertions, you’re also not comparing those you mention to their equivalents on the other “side”, which is obviously an appropriate measure if you’re trying to establish that “Side X chooses people who are far outside the mainstream!” ---
**Author:** ![coleridge78](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f07891/32.png) [@coleridge78](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coleridge78)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-official-mr-moto-is-a-clueless-right-wing-republican-shill-thread/314797/324 "2005-08-03T15:59:47Z")
> [@coleridge78](#): > > Show how Pelosi deviates further from the center than, say, Dennis Hastert. You’re going to have trouble if you go back to your other source–Pelosi rates 88th percentile liberal on economic issues, about the same as Hastert’s 84th percentile conservative. Hastert didn’t even vote often enough to get a ranking in any of the other categories–what were you saying about Kerry being lazy? Addendum: Bill Frist, leader of the Senate, darling of the party, and widely expected to at least enter the primaries in 2006, differs from Kerry by .3% on the National Journal scale. Teddy Kennedy? Less than two percent different from Frist. Again: the only cite you’ve offered very much weakens your assertion that Democrats put substantively more leadership into the hands of a “fringe” element than do the Republicans. If you’d like to try again with a different cite, and retract any assertions you made based on this one, feel free. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-official-mr-moto-is-a-clueless-right-wing-republican-shill-thread/314797/325 "2005-08-03T16:00:06Z")
This brings up an interesting point, though. Are the parties obligated to run moderates, or liberals, or conservatives? I don’t think they are obligated to run people of any ideological stripe specifically. However, if they keep running losers, they won’t be able to move any kind of agenda forward. It may have come to pass that the Republicans can get away with running and electing strong ideological conservatives, and the Democrats cannot similarly get away with electing strong ideological liberals in as many high profile races. To win more races, they may have to run more moderate candidates than the Republicans have to. Liberals in the Democratic Party may consider this terribly unfair. But Republicans had to deal with this for years, too, with moderates like Nixon and Eisenhower. Over the last generation, debate in this country has shifted rightward, and I regard this as a healthy thing. Democrats, for example, will not defend the Johnson-era 70% top tax rate. That’s permanently gone, and we as a country will never see it again. In this environment, a Democratic moderate can win and can move many Democratic agenda items forward. A raving leftist won’t get far. So the Democrats have to choose victory over ideological purity, just as a lot of Republicans had to when the center was well to the left of them. Otherwise, they’ll be further marginalized. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-official-mr-moto-is-a-clueless-right-wing-republican-shill-thread/314797/326 "2005-08-03T16:07:09Z")
> [@coleridge78](#): > > 1. Not only have you not even attempted to refute that Dean was always a model centrist, endorsed even by the NRA, with anything other than a “but he’s different now!!11!!!” assertion; you have also failed to compare him appropriately to _other people in the equivalent position_. Make a case that he’s more of a “bomb thrower” than Ken Mehlman. I daresay that, again, you’ll have a difficult road ahead of you. Here, I don’t agree with you, **coleridge78**. I think it’s easy to show Howard Dean as “bomb-thrower” in a way that Ken Mehlman is not. > [@Howard Dean](#): > > You think people can work all day and then pick up their kids at child care or wherever and get home and still manage to sandwich in an eight-hour vote? Well Republicans, I guess can do that. Because a lot of them have never made an honest living in their lives. > [@Howard Dean](#): > > I hate the Republicans and everything they stand for. Find me anything remotely similar from Mr. Mehlman… ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-official-mr-moto-is-a-clueless-right-wing-republican-shill-thread/314797/327 "2005-08-03T16:17:23Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > So the Democrats have to choose victory over ideological purity… But not much. Even by running a raging liberal like Kerry, we managed a 3% margin against Bush. If we are to believe\*\* Debaser\*\*, there is a vast gulf between Kerry and the center. We hardly need to nominate Zell Miller to win elections. There are plenty of liberal Democrats marginally more moderate, that are still true to the party’s core values that can pick up that 1.5% of swing voters. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-official-mr-moto-is-a-clueless-right-wing-republican-shill-thread/314797/328 "2005-08-03T16:21:37Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > I know! That’s right. I confused them. I must be an idiot. > > This is one of the things that really sucks about the SDMB sometimes. I’m assuming you’re talking about some folks’ utter lack of a sense of humor, a ridiculous inability to laugh at themselves. You made a stupid mistake; you took some ribbing for it. A bigger man would have laughed along with the others; you take it as a chance to lash out at the folks teasing you as if you’re seven years old. You made a mistake. No harm, no foul. I agree that some folks infer too much from your mistake. But for God’s sake, for a mistake as funny as calling Santorum a wacky liberal in response to a request to calibrate the political scale, you gotta expect some teasing. Grow a pair and take it in stride. On topic: it seems to me as if the Republican party is running plenty of hard-core fringe conservatives for office, and winning. They take positions far to the right of the country as a whole. And they win, not because the country is far more conservative than it looks, but because starting in the eighties, the Republican party got a tremendous advantage in organizing its constituents. And with Rove, the Republicans have got a tremendous mind directing campaign strategy. Right doesn’t make might, necessarily; the good guys don’t always win. While it’s probably comforting to assume that your horse wins because everyone loves your horse, it looks likely to me that your horse wins because your horse has got some great backers. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-official-mr-moto-is-a-clueless-right-wing-republican-shill-thread/314797/329 "2005-08-03T16:24:23Z")
> [@coleridge78](#): > > 1. Show how Pelosi deviates further from the center than, say, Dennis Hastert. Why compare her to Hastert? Wouldn’t a comparison to Frist be more apples to apples? > [@](#): > > Make a case that he’s more of a “bomb thrower” than Ken Mehlman. I daresay that, again, you’ll have a difficult road ahead of you. I’ve already posted cites about Deans rhetoric and how it’s even drawing fire from fellow democrats because he’s so over the top. You can ignore it, but it is there. I went to google news and searched on “Ken Mehlman” Here are the first five results: > [@](#): > > Republican National Committee (RNC) Chairman Ken Mehlman, will address participants attending the 30th Annual Conference of the National Association of Black Journalists (NABJ) in Atlanta, Ga. on Thursday, Aug. 4. Chairman Mehlman will make remarks about the RNC’s efforts to reach out to the Black community and participate in a Q&A session with a panel of NABJ journalists. [cite](http://releases.usnewswire.com/GetRelease.asp?id=51275) > [@](#): > > WASHINGTON, July 19 /U.S. Newswire/ – RNC Chairman Ken Mehlman issued the following statement on President Bush’s nomination of Judge John Roberts to the United States Supreme Court. > > … [cite](http://releases.usnewswire.com/GetRelease.asp?id=50569) > [@](#): > > RNC Chairman Ken Mehlman Addresses African Methodist Episcopal (AME) Church Convention in Houston, Texas [cite](http://releases.usnewswire.com/GetRelease.asp?id=50912) > [@](#): > > Republican National Committee Chairman Ken Mehlman discusses the current state of the Republican Party, the controversy surrounding White House deputy chief of staff Karl Rove, the Bush administration’s relationship with the NAACP and the upcoming Supreme Court nomination battle. Nothing unusual here. Just an interview with Gwen Ifill. [cite](http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/politics/july-dec05/mehlman_7-18.html) > [@](#): > > RNC Chairman Ken Mehlman Takes Outreach Tour to African American,Hispanic and Haitian Communities in Miami FL [cite](http://press.arrivenet.com/pol/article.php/672867.html) This is all pretty normal stuff that you would expect of a party chairman. He’s meeting with different groups, raising money from the party and doing interviews. Notice how little foaming of the mouth there seems to be with him. Now here are the first five news articles that appear for “Howard Dean”: (The second and fifth links are just message board posts page, so I’m ignoring them.) > [@](#): > > With apologies to Ken Mehlman, Howard Dean is quickly becoming the GOP’s favorite party chairman. Like something out of a science fiction movie, Dean seems to represent some sort of nexus in the universe for overwrought emotion, stupidity and arrogance. Like a magical Christmas present, he is the gift that keeps on giving. > > Let’s look at the highlights for the past few months. He said that he “hates Republicans”, that conservatives are “evil”, that Republicans “never made an honest living in their lives”, and that the GOP is “pretty much a white, Christian party”. A few months back at a gathering of black Democrats Dean commented that the Republicans couldn’t “get this many people of color in a single room” unless they included “the hotel staff”. [cite](http://blogcritics.org/archives/2005/08/02/170923.php) > [@](#): > > DNC Chairman Howard Dean to Address 47th Annual Convention of the Southern Christian Leadership Conference [cite](http://releases.usnewswire.com/GetRelease.asp?id=51215) > [@](#): > > Dems’ Howard Dean seizes low road again > Monday, August 01, 2005 > THE MORAL emptiness at the heart of the national Democratic Party organization was on sorry display July 22 when national Democratic Chairman Howard Dean spouted off not just with his usual inane insults, but with demonstrable lies. > > Really, there are too many decent people in the country who call themselves Democrats for them to be represented in party leadership by a man as off the wall as Dr. Dean. The national committee members who keep him in power do a disservice to their party and to the country. > > For months, Dr. Dean has been spewing an apocalyptic analysis of Republican rule, arguably insulting Christians, Southerners and even military personnel along the way. But he, like everybody, is at least entitled to his opinion – no matter how half-baked. [cite](http://www.al.com/opinion/mobileregister/index.ssf?/base/opinion/1122887721275820.xml&coll=3) > [@](#): > > Howard Dean Again Ratchets up Anti-Bush Rhetoric > ([CNSNews.com](http://CNSNews.com)) - Despite being scolded in June by members of his own party for inflammatory remarks targeting Republicans, Democratic National Committee Chairman Howard Dean Friday showed no willingness to back off. > > At one point, he characterized the Republican version of campaign finance reform as “screwing working people and making sure that the fat cats are giving more money.” > > Back in June, Dean accused Republicans of operating with a “dark, difficult and dishonest vision” of America. Dean labeled President Bush the “most ineffective” president in his lifetime. [cite](http://www.townhall.com/news/politics/200507/POL20050725a.shtml) > [@](#): > > Howard Dean’s brother exhorts Dems > > Democrats must stand behind their convictions in a difficult time, said Howard Dean’s brother, who now runs his political action committee. [cite](http://www.madison.com/tct/news/stories/index.php?ntid=48819&ntpid=4) Dean is on the attack against republicans. He’s a hate monger and isn’t doing his party any favors. If you think that he and Mehlman are alike then you are wrong. Dean’s rhetoric is uncalled for and lame. He’s doing the democrats a disservice as long as he continues as chairman of the party. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-official-mr-moto-is-a-clueless-right-wing-republican-shill-thread/314797/330 "2005-08-03T16:30:10Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > I’m assuming you’re talking about some folks’ utter lack of a sense of humor, a ridiculous inability to laugh at themselves. You made a stupid mistake; you took some ribbing for it. That’s fine with me. I expect it, and I’m OK with it. I was only getting defensive about it when people started in with the whole “shall never consider your opinion on politics to be worth anything anymore” and claiming that they’d follow me to other threads with it. But, ya, you’re right. I fucked up, admitted it, and knew I’d take shit for it. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-official-mr-moto-is-a-clueless-right-wing-republican-shill-thread/314797/331 "2005-08-03T16:33:48Z")
**Debaser** , do you believe that the first-five-google-cites methodology is a sound methodology for determining whether an individual is a “bomb-thrower”? Do you believe that there are no other plausible explanations for the results that you got? Hell, I **agree** with you about Howard Dean, but that ain’t the way to prove it. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-official-mr-moto-is-a-clueless-right-wing-republican-shill-thread/314797/332 "2005-08-03T16:49:06Z")
> [@Fear Itself](#): > > But not much. Even by running a raging liberal like Kerry, we managed a 3% margin against Bush. If we are to believe\*\* Debaser\*\*, there is a vast gulf between Kerry and the center. We hardly need to nominate Zell Miller to win elections. There are plenty of liberal Democrats marginally more moderate, that are still true to the party’s core values that can pick up that 1.5% of swing voters. Good luck. He was perceived to be the electable one, remember? Isn’t that why all those Democrats supported him in the primaries? Who was more moderate than him, this last time around. And who would be more moderate next time? ---
**Author:** ![coleridge78](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f07891/32.png) [@coleridge78](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coleridge78)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-official-mr-moto-is-a-clueless-right-wing-republican-shill-thread/314797/333 "2005-08-03T16:49:16Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Here, I don’t agree with you, **coleridge78**. I think it’s easy to show Howard Dean as “bomb-thrower” in a way that Ken Mehlman is not. > > Find me anything remotely similar from Mr. Mehlman… Here he is explicitly endorsing Santorum, hate speech and all: [http://www.commongroundcommonsense.org/forums/lofiversion/index.php/t32521.html](http://www.commongroundcommonsense.org/forums/lofiversion/index.php/t32521.html) He personally led the effort to put a fabricated, cut-and-paste frankenquote out in the “liberal media” as a purported statement from Joe Wilson: [http://mediamatters.org/items/200507210003](http://mediamatters.org/items/200507210003) He said it was “outrageous” for those who agreed with Durbin’s torture statement to be offended at this utterly unfounded slander by Rove: “Conservatives saw the savagery of 9/11 in the attacks and prepared for war; liberals saw the savagery of the 9/11 attacks and wanted to prepare indictments and offer therapy and understanding for our attackers…Let me put this in fairly simple terms: Al Jazeera now broadcasts to the region the words of Sen. Durbin, certainly putting America’s men and women in uniform in greater danger. No more needs to be said about the motives of liberals”. [http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1432074/posts](http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1432074/posts) I will concede this: he doesn’t seem to make the blatant statements that Howard Dean has made a habit of lately. However, he has no problem explicitly endorsing the statement that, for example, “liberals” want to see their fellow americans die; or participating in pure invention in order to discredit an opponent. It may not be bomb-throwing, but it’s at least land-mine-planting. IMO. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-official-mr-moto-is-a-clueless-right-wing-republican-shill-thread/314797/334 "2005-08-03T17:02:32Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > […]Dean is on the attack against republicans. He’s a hate monger and isn’t doing his party any favors. If you think that he and Mehlman are alike then you are wrong. Dean’s rhetoric is uncalled for and lame. He’s doing the democrats a disservice as long as he continues as chairman of the party. We had a big thread about this in GD not too very long ago. I would still very much like to see any evidence whatsoever that Dean has been harmful to the Democratic party. Again, it seems to me that since Dean, Pelosi and Reid assumed leadership, things have been going very poorly for Bush. One could argue that Bush is simply shitting himself, but I’ve come to believe that coincidence is much less a factor in politics than most people think. As a Democrat, I’ve been more than happy with the way things have been going, speaking strictly politically, this year. What the Democrats need to do is move away from the centrist, Republican lite thinking of the DLC and run more candidates who are straight shooters and are willing to note that the president is a son of a bitch. ---
**Author:** ![coleridge78](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f07891/32.png) [@coleridge78](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coleridge78)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-official-mr-moto-is-a-clueless-right-wing-republican-shill-thread/314797/335 "2005-08-03T17:02:45Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > Why compare her to Hastert? Wouldn’t a comparison to Frist be more apples to apples? No. I supplied that as well, with similar results. However, given that Pelosi and Hastert are both House leadership, that is the more on-point comparison. Particularly as the Journal rankings are in relation to other members of the person’s own chamber. > [@](#): > > I’ve already posted cites about Deans rhetoric and how it’s even drawing fire from fellow democrats because he’s so over the top. You can ignore it, but it is there. I wasn’t ignoring it. I never denied he’s a “bomb thrower”. You hadn’t said a word, though, about his counterpart. So, to imply that I’m someone “ignoring” a previous on-point statement is rather disingenuous, no? > [@](#): > > I went to google news and searched on “Ken Mehlman” I can use google, too. Amazingly enough. I’ve already addressed and partially (only partially) conceded this point. I notice, however, that you’ve sidestepped the issue of the party chair indicates more about the direction of a party than the actual elected officials who are setting policy and leading as such. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-official-mr-moto-is-a-clueless-right-wing-republican-shill-thread/314797/336 "2005-08-03T17:10:10Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > Good luck. He was perceived to be the electable one, remember? Isn’t that why all those Democrats supported him in the primaries? Not me, I voted for Dean. I still think he could have beaten Bush. He’s not afraid to fight dirty, the only way to win against Rove/Cheney. > [@](#): > > Who was more moderate than him, this last time around. And who would be more moderate next time? If I were to criticize the Democrats in their choice of nominees, it would be _ **stop nominating Senators!** _. A sitting Senator hasn’t been elected since Jack Kennedy, yet despite failure after failure, we keep nominating them. Look at who our successful nominees have been: Jimmy Carter, **governor** ; Bill Clinton, **governor**. We have many Democrat governors that would make excellent candidates: Bill Richardson, governor of New Mexico; Mark Warner, governor of Virginia; or Tom Vilsack, governor of Iowa. All are eminently more electable than a US Senator. Managing a state is great experience for the Presidency, and you face less nitpicking over hundreds of votes that can be spun against you by the opposition. ---
**Author:** ![kidchameleon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-official-mr-moto-is-a-clueless-right-wing-republican-shill-thread/314797/337 "2005-08-03T17:36:05Z")
> [@Hentor the Barbarian](#): > > run more candidates who are straight shooters and are willing to note that the president is a son of a bitch. Hey, why the hating on Barbara? ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-official-mr-moto-is-a-clueless-right-wing-republican-shill-thread/314797/338 "2005-08-03T18:22:46Z")
> [@kidchameleon](#): > > Hey, why the hating on Barbara? It’s OK to dis Barbara Bush. Even the president does: > [@](#): > > Mrs. Bush told her son she was proud of him. > > “I was thinking how great you look in your new brown suit,” she said. > > Bush gave her a long look and said, “You turn 80, and you run out of things to say.” [Billings Gazette](http://www.billingsgazette.com/index.php?id=1&display=rednews/2005/07/23/build/nation/50-bush-mom.inc) ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-official-mr-moto-is-a-clueless-right-wing-republican-shill-thread/314797/339 "2005-08-03T18:32:36Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > It seems that the Democrat political thinkers do realize that you need a moderate to win an election, just like the republican ones do. My objection to Kerry is not the way he ran for office, he did do that as a moderate. My objection is more in his liberal voting record which is arguably the most liberal in the senate (or the laziest, as others have pointed out). More liberal or less liberal than Wellstone/Santorum? After all, with the words you used to describe Wellstone…and they were in the Senate together, after all. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2005, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-official-mr-moto-is-a-clueless-right-wing-republican-shill-thread/314797/340 "2005-08-03T19:11:25Z")
> [@Hentor the Barbarian](#): > > Again, it seems to me that since Dean, Pelosi and Reid assumed leadership, things have been going very poorly for Bush. One could argue that Bush is simply shitting himself, but I’ve come to believe that coincidence is much less a factor in politics than most people think. As a Democrat, I’ve been more than happy with the way things have been going, speaking strictly politically, this year. So… if the mid-term elections produce a net gain for the GOP in the House and the Senate… what, if anything, will that do to your opinion? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-official-mr-moto-is-a-clueless-right-wing-republican-shill-thread/314797.md?page=16) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-official-mr-moto-is-a-clueless-right-wing-republican-shill-thread/314797.md?page=18)