# The official Pope Benedict XVI thread. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 19, 2005, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-official-pope-benedict-xvi-thread/300079 "2005-04-19T16:41:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2005, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-official-pope-benedict-xvi-thread/300079/121 "2005-04-20T13:59:21Z")
Isn’t arguing that Ratzinger was only sort of a Nazi exactly the kind of moral relativism about evil that he has expressed complete opposition to? I’d like to think the Roman Catholic Church could have picked a new leader who was zero percent Nazi - it’s not that high a bar when you’re selecting somebody who’s supposed to speak as a moral authority for millions. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2005, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-official-pope-benedict-xvi-thread/300079/122 "2005-04-20T14:09:07Z")
Time to dust off the old “Waldheimer’s Disease” joke, perhaps? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2005, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-official-pope-benedict-xvi-thread/300079/123 "2005-04-20T14:12:02Z")
On the one hand, I’m pretty inclined to overlook his Hitler Youth past: it was a horrific time, and the choice he made hardly registers on the horror-screen. On the other hand, I’m not Jewish, nor were any of my relatives murdered by the Nazi regime, so it’s pretty easy for me to forgive and discount. Has there been any public reaction from Jewish leaders to this choice? What about from John Paul’s Roman Rabbi friend? I know John-Paul emphasized outreach to other Judeochristians; is this going to put a crimp in that process? Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2005, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-official-pope-benedict-xvi-thread/300079/124 "2005-04-20T18:42:16Z")
> [@Little Nemo](#): > > Isn’t arguing that Ratzinger was only sort of a Nazi exactly the kind of moral relativism about evil that he has expressed complete opposition to? I’d like to think the Roman Catholic Church could have picked a new leader who was zero percent Nazi - it’s not that high a bar when you’re selecting somebody who’s supposed to speak as a moral authority for millions. It’s not moral relativism. The guy was fourteen and he didn’t have a choice to be a member of the Hitler Youth. He hardly ever attended meetings or activities. Second, he was never a NAZI. He was not a party member, deserted the army when he could (also was forced into it in the first place), and his family was decidedly anti-Nazi. I mean, I’m not a fan of the pope\*, but there are a hell of a lot more important things to criticize him on. \*Am I the only one who feels she’s going to have a hard time thinking of him as “the pope”, or Benedict XVI? Maybe it’s my age-from the time I can remember, John Paul II was “the pope.” This has nothing to do with my dislike of Ratzinger-I’d probably feel the same no matter who was elected. This is going to take some getting used to. ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2005, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-official-pope-benedict-xvi-thread/300079/125 "2005-04-20T21:28:49Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > \*Am I the only one who feels she’s going to have a hard time thinking of him as “the pope”, or Benedict XVI? Maybe it’s my age-from the time I can remember, John Paul II was “the pope.” This has nothing to do with my dislike of Ratzinger-I’d probably feel the same no matter who was elected. This is going to take some getting used to. I know what you mean. Not only am I accustomed to ‘the pope’ being JPII, but I’ve also been following Ratzenberger for a few years and it’s hard to get used to referring to him as Benedict XVI. Or as I will refer to him more often, BXVI. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2005, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-official-pope-benedict-xvi-thread/300079/126 "2005-04-20T22:32:26Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > “Formal cooperation” . . . “remote material cooperation” . . . “proportionate reason” . . . 😛 Gotta love it! Nobody can match the RCC for refined, measured, gymnastic moral sophistry! > [@Metacom](#): > > Actually, that’s one of the things I respect about the RCC. Morality _isn’t_ always so simple, and they seem to recognize that. Yes, they do – but they won’t come out and admit it in plain Latin. They use all that high-flown, technical-sounding jargon to make it look like they’re providing the faithful with some kind of reliable, precise moral calculus that each believer can apply with certainty in a given situation, and to obfuscate the fact that they’re just tap-dancing around the issue. ---
**Author:** ![Loopydude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e56c9b/32.png) [@Loopydude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopydude)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2005, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-official-pope-benedict-xvi-thread/300079/127 "2005-04-20T23:45:06Z")
> [@Little Nemo](#): > > Isn’t arguing that Ratzinger was only sort of a Nazi exactly the kind of moral relativism about evil that he has expressed complete opposition to? I’d like to think the Roman Catholic Church could have picked a new leader who was zero percent Nazi - it’s not that high a bar when you’re selecting somebody who’s supposed to speak as a moral authority for millions. I think this is really, really, _really_ a non-issue. It’s like blaming the guy for having been born in Germany, for crying out loud. If I were in his shoes, I would have been a Hitler Youth too, in all likelyhood. He was a child in wartime. I’m prefectly willing to cut him a whole lotta slack for that. Let’s put this one to bed. Whatever his faults, Ratzinger is NOT a Nazi, and never was. ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2005, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-official-pope-benedict-xvi-thread/300079/128 "2005-04-21T00:42:05Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > I’ve seen other sources that say it was May 1945, when half the Wehrmacht was doing the same thing. Well, what does a rat _usually_ do when the ship is sinking? ---
**Author:** ![uglybeech](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/82dd89/32.png) [@uglybeech](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/uglybeech)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2005, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-official-pope-benedict-xvi-thread/300079/129 "2005-04-21T00:50:16Z")
> [@Skammer](#): > > but I’ve also been following \*\*Ratzenberger \*\* for a few years … It shows 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2005, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-official-pope-benedict-xvi-thread/300079/130 "2005-04-21T02:13:33Z")
> [@](#): > > It’s not moral relativism. The guy was fourteen and he didn’t have a choice to be a member of the Hitler Youth. He hardly ever attended meetings or activities. Second, he was never a NAZI. He was not a party member, deserted the army when he could (also was forced into it in the first place), and his family was decidedly anti-Nazi. While joining the Hitler Youth was mandated by law, other people Ratzinger’s age apparently did not comply with this law and escaped punishment. As others have pointed out, Ratzinger later deserted which indicates he was willing to defy the law. And the Hitler Youth was definitely a Nazi organization; its avowed purpose was to indoctrinate young people with Nazi beliefs. ---
**Author:** ![descamisado](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e480ec/32.png) [@descamisado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/descamisado)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2005, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-official-pope-benedict-xvi-thread/300079/131 "2005-04-21T04:21:43Z")
> [@Little Nemo](#): > > The correct term is Poputus of Love. Given his leadership and patriarchal position over his flock, wouldn’t he be the . . . “Pope-Daddy”? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2005, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-official-pope-benedict-xvi-thread/300079/132 "2005-04-21T05:56:07Z")
> [@Little Nemo](#): > > While joining the Hitler Youth was mandated by law, other people Ratzinger’s age apparently did not comply with this law and escaped punishment. As others have pointed out, Ratzinger later deserted which indicates he was willing to defy the law. And the Hitler Youth was definitely a Nazi organization; its avowed purpose was to indoctrinate young people with Nazi beliefs. He was FOURTEEN. He wasn’t in any position to stand up to it, and from what I gather, he wasn’t very active. His family was very anti-Nazi. Jesus Christ! Of all the things to go after him, this is the stupidest! ---
**Author:** ![Kolak\_of\_Twilo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kolak_of_twilo/32/73_2.png) [@Kolak\_of\_Twilo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolak_of_Twilo)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2005, 7:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-official-pope-benedict-xvi-thread/300079/133 "2005-04-21T07:45:45Z")
I really have to agree with **Guinastasia** , of all the things to go after Benedict XVI for this is the silliest. I doubt if any of us can begin to understand what living under the Third Reich was like for anyone. He was a fourteen year old. His father was strongly anti-Nazi. They moved numerous times to avoid retribution for his father’s outspokeness. He has made many statements in his recent position that are cause for concern regarding his reign as Pope. Let’s keep this in the realm of the relevant. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2005, 8:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-official-pope-benedict-xvi-thread/300079/134 "2005-04-21T08:09:42Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > On the one hand, I’m pretty inclined to overlook his Hitler Youth past: it was a horrific time, and the choice he made hardly registers on the horror-screen. > > On the other hand, I’m not Jewish, nor were any of my relatives murdered by the Nazi regime, so it’s pretty easy for me to forgive and discount. Has there been any public reaction from Jewish leaders to this choice? What about from John Paul’s Roman Rabbi friend? > > I know John-Paul emphasized outreach to other Judeochristians; is this going to put a crimp in that process? > > Daniel > [@](#): > > The choice of Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger as the new pope on Tuesday, Jewish religious leaders say, is a sign that the warming ties initiated by Pope John Paul II between the Vatican and Jews will continue. > > In one indication of his respect for Judaism, Ratzinger authorized in 2002 the publication of a report that stated that “the Jewish messianic wait is not in vain.” That document also expressed regret that certain passages in the Christian Bible condemning individual Jews have been used to justify anti-Semitism. > > The 210-page document, titled “The Jewish People and the Holy Scriptures in the Christian Bible,” says Jews and Christians share their wait for the Messiah, although Jews are waiting for the first coming and Christians for the second. [http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1113877273080&apage=1](http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1113877273080&apage=1) > [@](#): > > Pope Benedict XVI, or Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger as the media continue to refer to him, is no stranger to Israel or to the Catholic Church’s present commitment to serious, respectful dialogue with Judaism. > > In 1994, he came to Jerusalem as a guest speaker at an international, interreligious conference on “Religious Leadership in a Secular Society” organized by Rabbi David Rosen, presently the international director for interreligious affairs of the American Jewish Committee. His opening remark was: “The history of relations between Israel and Christianity is filled with blood and tears… After Auschwitz, the mission of reconciliation and acceptance cannot be delayed.” > > “We are certain that he will continue on the path of reconciliation between Christians and Jews that John Paul II began,” Paul Spiegel, head of Germany’s main Jewish organization, told The Associated Press in a telephone interview. Of course since many liberals view Israel as the incarnation of all that is evil in this world, that’s only going to inflame them further. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2005, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-official-pope-benedict-xvi-thread/300079/135 "2005-04-21T12:21:29Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > [http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1113877273080&apage=1](http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1113877273080&apage=1) No cite, but I heard on the radio that Ratzinger/BXVI has been very hard-line on the “no salvation except through Christ” doctrine – i.e., non-Christians, including Jews, have no chance of getting into Heaven. Won’t that sour his relations with the Jewish community just a little? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2005, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-official-pope-benedict-xvi-thread/300079/136 "2005-04-21T13:54:47Z")
I’m not “going after” the Pope. I didn’t raise the issue until others did and then I offered my opinion - which stands, incidentally. My first post on the subject was to point out the hypocrisy. The Pope’s stance on relativism is that sin is sin and there’s no consideration offered because of the sinner’s youth or circumstance. So I think he can fairly be judged by the same standard he has set up to judge others. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2005, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-official-pope-benedict-xvi-thread/300079/137 "2005-04-21T13:55:08Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > No cite, but I heard on the radio that Ratzinger/BXVI has been very hard-line on the “no salvation except through Christ” doctrine – i.e., non-Christians, including Jews, have no chance of getting into Heaven. Oversimplified reporting, and anyway that is not what the phrase has meant for a long while. What J.R. DID write as head of the CDF was to the effect of: (1) Reaffirmation that all salvation comes from Christ and other religions have varying degrees of partial achievement of Christ’s Truth, even if they do not know it themselves or call it something else. IOW what there is in other religions that is good and valid, comes from the Christian God anyway. (2) That the RCC has the Most Complete Revelation of Christ’s Truth (3) Rejection of “indifferentism”, the idea that “all religions are the same”; as corollaries (a) a call to believers to evangelize, and (b) a warning to believers NOT to “plug in” elements extraneous to Chritianity – e.g. New-Agey stuff – into their spiritual pursuit. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2005, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-official-pope-benedict-xvi-thread/300079/138 "2005-04-21T14:10:03Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > [http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1113877273080&apage=1](http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1113877273080&apage=1) > > Of course since many liberals view Israel as the incarnation of all that is evil in this world, that’s only going to inflame them further. Great cites, **Rune** –thanks! They certainly provide at least _prima facie_ evidence that my concerns on this issue are unfounded. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2005, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-official-pope-benedict-xvi-thread/300079/139 "2005-04-21T14:11:55Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > What J.R. DID write as head of the CDF was to the effect of: > (1) Reaffirmation that all salvation comes from Christ and other religions have varying degrees of partial achievement of Christ’s Truth, even if they do not know it themselves or call it something else. IOW what there is in other religions that is good and valid, comes from the Christian God anyway. So Jews **can** get into Heaven? ---
**Author:** ![JohnM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/848f3c/32.png) [@JohnM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnM)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2005, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-official-pope-benedict-xvi-thread/300079/140 "2005-04-21T14:43:31Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > So Jews **can** get into Heaven? In short, yes. In more detail, see the [Cathechism](http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a9p3.htm#839). > [@Catechism of the Catholic Church](#): > > When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People, “the first to hear the Word of God.” The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God’s revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews “belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ”, “for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-official-pope-benedict-xvi-thread/300079.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-official-pope-benedict-xvi-thread/300079.md?page=8)